The holy Swedish month of July is over and our workforce has been steadily trickling back into the office, resigned to the fact that sunlight is a luxury we won't be seeing for another 11 months. With that lovely thought in mind, let's return to our weekly dev diaries and talk about a new feature for our upcoming yet unrevealed expansion for Europa Universalis IV: Coptic Holy Sites.

Copts have had a rough time. Way back in EU's history they were simply represented as the Orthodox faith before getting their own religion within the Christian group, but even then they lacked their own flavour, destined to be left in the Horn of Africa and Armenia with hungry neighbours and their Patriarch being locked up and bullied in Mamluk-held Alexandria.

Well no longer! A feature in the upcoming DLC is a Holy Sites system unique for Coptic nations. Any nation which follows the Coptic faith will have access to a screen showing their Holy Sites. There are 5 in total, detailed with who is currently controlling them and the faith followed by the province. It is the Copts' holy mission to see these restored to Coptic control.

As shown above, Armenia (Who I released&played as from QQ) can open their Coptic menu and see the state of their Holy Sites. If a Holy Site is held by any Coptic nation and the province itself follows the One True Faith™ then all Coptic nations will be granted a blessing from the Patriarch. You are able to pick from the 5 available blessings but be sure that you or your Coptic friends hold onto your possessions tightly, as losing ownership of a Holy Site to a nation of another faith will lose you the blessing until it is returned to Coptic hands.

In 1444 the only Holy site in control of the Copts is Aksum, in the far north of Ethiopia. This will allow all existing Coptic nations to pick one blessing of their choice from the above list.

Legitimize Government: +0.5 Legitimacy
Encourage Wariors of the Faith: +10% manpower recovery
Send Monks to Establish Monasteries: +1.5% missionary strength
Promote Territorial Rights: -10% Core creation Cost
Will of the Martyrs: +5% discipline

Unlike other religious mechanics, the Coptic Holy Sites will collectively make all followers of that religion stronger. It makes no difference in the available Blessings if your nation or another Coptic nation holds the Holy Sites. Should the Copts fight back from their perilous position in 1444 and secure their Holy Sites, they will be that much stronger. Co-operate with other Coptic nations and share the Patriarch's blessings

Alongside the Holy sites and Patriarch Blessings, Copts will have a healthy dose of unique flavour events and missions to drive their liberation of the Holy Sites. Coptic Holy Sites will be a paid feature in the upcoming DLC, which will be released alongside the free 1.18 patch.

Next week I'll pass the reins back to Johan, as we return to see what changes have been going on in the Throne Room

 

[D_Pawel]

No, I'm pretty sure the phrase is 'the exception that proves the rule'. But yes; my and @GeneralPetrov 's sentiments exactly - it does more harm than good acting like a door-to-door salesman.

If I recall correctly, it's a somehow twisted because this phrase originated from anglo-saxon law practice that exception proves a *new* rule (precedent)., not the old one Also, I didn't know about M&T and I played EU4 for 400 hours .

 

[staycool.]

Orthodox provides decent bonuses and even gives you some good ones for not making use of them - it's just mind-numbingly boring, lacks flavor and is completely forgettable.

"it's just mind-numbingly boring, lacks flavor and is completely forgettable" i couldn't agree with you more sir.

However, decent bonuses? How about useless bonuses and a hefty PENALTY for using the mechanic?

Let's take a look:
+1 tolerance of the true faith, that one is ok
-10% stability cost = great, i get to save 10 admin points every 30 years when i click a button, useless

now, patriarch slider:
+2 missionary str, would be usefull it if didn't take you 200 years to get to 100% authority
-3 local unrest, would be OP but guess what>it's only for provinces of your own religion and since you already have +1 ttf it's an overkill and threfore doesn't give you much
+33% local manpower modifier - would be good IF, and here we come to the best part of all:
-33% national tax income! - you pay a godlike ammount of money for bonuses that are not that usefull, 33% tax income would allow me to hire enough mercs to squash any rebelion and not care, i could make buildings that reduce revolt risk AND give me manpower. Not to mention that there is no bonus for army quality, i would take 5% disc over all of those bonuses any day. I won't even bother to explain why staying orthodox is SUICIDE in MP games.

Now let's look at another religious mechanic that has a slider:

Piety: at 100% lack of piety you get -10% tech cost, +20% tax income and national manpower, at being 100% pious you get +3 missionary str, +10% morale of armies and + 20% fort def.
Coupled with the fact that muslim events come on regular basis and are modified with the way you play it's a very flexible, fun system with well rounded great bonuses which you can easily adapt for your current needs. In orthodoxy you get neither. That is why in every mp game a decent player will go sunni or if possible shia as russia, in worst case protestant. (same reasoning applies to catholic in MP games, no military quality bonus whatsoever)

What orthodoxy desperately needs is an overhaul, rework of it's bonuses to add army quality (morale or disc) not quantity, removal of pointless burdening penalties and for the love of god some other way of playing the mechanic that doesnt involve events that come once every 100 years that provide you an incentive NOT to use the mechanic.

/end rant.

 

[Bella Gerant]

"it's just mind-numbingly boring, lacks flavor and is completely forgettable" i couldn't agree with you more sir.

However, decent bonuses? How about useless bonuses and a hefty PENALTY for using the mechanic?

Let's take a look:
+1 tolerance of the true faith, that one is ok
-10% stability cost = great, i get to save 10 admin points every 30 years when i click a button, useless

now, patriarch slider:
+2 missionary str, would be usefull it if didn't take you 200 years to get to 100% authority
-3 local unrest, would be OP but guess what>it's only for provinces of your own religion and since you already have +1 ttf it's an overkill and threfore doesn't give you much
+33% local manpower modifier - would be good IF, and here we come to the best part of all:
-33% national tax income! - you pay a godlike ammount of money for bonuses that are not that usefull, 33% tax income would allow me to hire enough mercs to squash any rebelion and not care, i could make buildings that reduce revolt risk AND give me manpower. Not to mention that there is no bonus for army quality, i would take 5% disc over all of those bonuses any day. I won't even bother to explain why staying orthodox is SUICIDE in MP games.

Now let's look at another religious mechanic that has a slider:

Piety: at 100% lack of piety you get -10% tech cost, +20% tax income and national manpower, at being 100% pious you get +3 missionary str, +10% morale of armies and + 20% fort def.
Coupled with the fact that muslim events come on regular basis and are modified with the way you play it's a very flexible, fun system with well rounded great bonuses which you can easily adapt for your current needs. In orthodoxy you get neither. That is why in every mp game a decent player will go sunni or if possible shia as russia, in worst case protestant. (same reasoning applies to catholic in MP games, no military quality bonus whatsoever)

What orthodoxy desperately needs is an overhaul, rework of it's bonuses to add army quality (morale or disc) not quantity, removal of pointless burdening penalties and for the love of god some other way of playing the mechanic that doesnt involve events that come once every 100 years that provide you an incentive NOT to use the mechanic.

/end rant.

Eh, Orthodox bonuses aren't that bad. I mean, compared to Sunni and Shia, yeah. But you could say that about every religion (except Shia, 1.18 Coptic, and maybe 2 other religions). The tax income stings but most orthodox nations (the Russians, Byzantium) won'y rely on tax income so much as production or trade. As for missionary strength, that's quite useful (though, yes, very slow) and combos well with Religious Ideas (at a certain point, you'll convert faster than you core, making the -3 local unrest worthwhile). But, in MP, yeah, that stacks up poorly..

Considering how Fetishist got revamped, it's likely that Orthodox (and Confucian, Shinto, and maybe but probably not Sikh) will get some amount of attention. I mean, it took them a while to look at Buddhism (and even longer to make it not the most detrimental religion in game) but they did. One of the next 3 major patches will probably deal with all of the religious loose ends (Confucian and Shinto having hundreds of provinces between them yet having only passive modifiers, all of the New World Totemist stuff, Sikh being inferior to Islam and Hinduism).

To be honest, Coptic needed some love (Coptic's passive modifiers were worse than Orthodox's before the fort change and it didn't have any additional modifiers at all). Considering they took such a heavy hand at the fix, that can only bode well for the other major Christian branches, no? As for Fetishist...your guess is as good as mine.

 

[staycool.]

Eh, Orthodox bonuses aren't that bad. I mean, compared to Sunni and Shia, yeah. But you could say that about every religion (except Shia, 1.18 Coptic, and maybe 2 other religions). The tax income stings but most orthodox nations (the Russians, Byzantium) won'y rely on tax income so much as production or trade. As for missionary strength, that's quite useful (though, yes, very slow) and combos well with Religious Ideas (at a certain point, you'll convert faster than you core, making the -3 local unrest worthwhile). But, in MP, yeah, that stacks up poorly..

Considering how Fetishist got revamped, it's likely that Orthodox (and Confucian, Shinto, and maybe but probably not Sikh) will get some amount of attention. I mean, it took them a while to look at Buddhism (and even longer to make it not the most detrimental religion in game) but they did. One of the next 3 major patches will probably deal with all of the religious loose ends (Confucian and Shinto having hundreds of provinces between them yet having only passive modifiers, all of the New World Totemist stuff, Sikh being inferior to Islam and Hinduism).

To be honest, Coptic needed some love (Coptic's passive modifiers were worse than Orthodox's before the fort change and it didn't have any additional modifiers at all). Considering they took such a heavy hand at the fix, that can only bode well for the other major Christian branches, no? As for Fetishist...your guess is as good as mine.

33% tax income is 33% tax income, regardless of where you blob, it is a pretty crippling penalty that outweighs mediocre benefits you get in return.

As for other religions being in dire need of attention, I can't argue with you there, i'm happy for what they are doing to coptic and fetishist. I just think major European religions need to be looked at first.

PS - I also think that catholicism could use some love in form of army quality as an option to spend your influence (eg morale boost for a set period of time, just a thought)

 

[hashinshin]

In my MP mod I give orthodox 5% moral 2.5% discipline at max PA. It encourages people to not just take the small bonuses over and over again, and -33% tax means that it's kind of like a reverse protestant that has huge missonary/unrest reduction.

 

[Incompetent]

Let's take a look:
+1 tolerance of the true faith, that one is ok
-10% stability cost = great, i get to save 10 admin points every 30 years when i click a button, useless

now, patriarch slider:
+2 missionary str, would be usefull it if didn't take you 200 years to get to 100% authority
-3 local unrest, would be OP but guess what>it's only for provinces of your own religion and since you already have +1 ttf it's an overkill and threfore doesn't give you much
+33% local manpower modifier - would be good IF, and here we come to the best part of all:
-33% national tax income! - you pay a godlike ammount of money for bonuses that are not that usefull, 33% tax income would allow me to hire enough mercs to squash any rebelion and not care, i could make buildings that reduce revolt risk AND give me manpower. Not to mention that there is no bonus for army quality, i would take 5% disc over all of those bonuses any day. I won't even bother to explain why staying orthodox is SUICIDE in MP games.

The -33% tax income is not such a big deal by the time you actually have that much PA. Far more money comes from production and trade, with almost any starting country (assuming you expand in a sensible way).

The main advantage of Orthodox is a *lot* of unrest reduction in true-religion provinces. It's rather niche (and unrest reduction is naturally a 'boring' bonus), but can be strong if you're pushing hard and would otherwise be suffering due to war exhaustion and overextension, or if you are aggressive with autonomy reduction. Religious ideas are pretty much obligatory though, so that conversions keep up with the rate of conquest. Similarly, stab cost reductions don't matter for more conservative play, but they definitely do matter if you're in the habit of breaking truces. Basically Orthodox is set up so you can be extremely aggressive and not have your country fall apart.

You also have to consider the other advantages of being Christian, such as the numerous decisions, lots of extra missionaries from conquering certain cities, and the possibility of PUs. Orthodox is not bad by world standards. I'd maybe add a moderate morale bonus for PA, give a better bonus to Restoring the Pentarchy (the result is very disappointing, aside from the giant 'screw you' to Catholics) and improve the goodies from PA events, but I don't think the religion needs a complete overhaul.

 

[staycool.]

The -33% tax income is not such a big deal by the time you actually have that much PA. Far more money comes from production and trade, with almost any starting country (assuming you expand in a sensible way).

The main advantage of Orthodox is a *lot* of unrest reduction in true-religion provinces. It's rather niche (and unrest reduction is naturally a 'boring' bonus), but can be strong if you're pushing hard and would otherwise be suffering due to war exhaustion and overextension, or if you are aggressive with autonomy reduction. Religious ideas are pretty much obligatory though, so that conversions keep up with the rate of conquest. Similarly, stab cost reductions don't matter for more conservative play, but they definitely do matter if you're in the habit of breaking truces. Basically Orthodox is set up so you can be extremely aggressive and not have your country fall apart.

You also have to consider the other advantages of being Christian, such as the numerous decisions, lots of extra missionaries from conquering certain cities, and the possibility of PUs. Orthodox is not bad by world standards. I'd maybe add a moderate morale bonus for PA, give a better bonus to Restoring the Pentarchy (the result is very disappointing, aside from the giant 'screw you' to Catholics) and improve the goodies from PA events, but I don't think the religion needs a complete overhaul.

By the time you blob that hard for it not to matter you already basically won the game. Try doing what you described in MP when it;s all about quality stacking and always using up more of your FL than you would in sp then see the results. Also in those long, long attrition wars you end up without manpower sooner rather than later, so it always comes down to two factors: income and quality. -33% tax in a pvp setting and no quality buff from religion/ideas is the main reason people playing russia underperform in wars. Russia is still orthodox and has 200k? after several battles watch him play with half of what he started for the rest of the war.
Out of my 1.4k hours spent ingame 90% of it was in MP, last time I played muscovy in mp was a long, long time ago and for a good reason, but i would love to play it again since i have fun memmories. However, to this day i really don't see russia as a real threat in MP games, a very few people do.

Balance and fun m8, it's about balance and fun, not niche, that is why orthodox needs to be reworked, at least it's bonuses at the minimum.

 

[hashinshin]

My MP mod also does a large increase for Russian ideas (giving them a total of -40% infantry costs, 20% core costs, 3 extra states.) I think people don't realize that Russia/Orthodox is basically a tier 3-4 country in a tier 1 culture/location held up only by the fact that in SP players can PvE blob before facing the drastically superior Sweden/Ottos/PLC.

In history Russia was a firm Tier 1 country. EASILY amongst top 10, maybe even among top 5 of this time period. In fact, the biggest comparison country to Russia is probably portugal. Both PvE excessively, both have no military quality, and both try to get obscene force limits. However, while Portugal typically ends up with limitless soldiers via mercenaries, Russia ends up with limited yet near limitless soldiers of manpower.... HOWEVER, Russia is adjacent to PLC/Sweden/Ottos and often Prussia which means their lack of quality ANNIHILATES them.

This is kind of a pet peeve of mine because there's a large disconnect on the forums over Russia. They're not even one of the strongest countries for single player because there are many other countries that do the whole "expand until you've won" play style better.

 

[staycool.]

My MP mod also does a large increase for Russian ideas (giving them a total of -40% infantry costs, 20% core costs, 3 extra states.) I think people don't realize that Russia/Orthodox is basically a tier 3-4 country in a tier 1 culture/location held up only by the fact that in SP players can PvE blob before facing the drastically superior Sweden/Ottos/PLC.

In history Russia was a firm Tier 1 country. EASILY amongst top 10, maybe even among top 5 of this time period. In fact, the biggest comparison country to Russia is probably portugal. Both PvE excessively, both have no military quality, and both try to get obscene force limits. However, while Portugal typically ends up with limitless soldiers via mercenaries, Russia ends up with limited yet near limitless soldiers of manpower.... HOWEVER, Russia is adjacent to PLC/Sweden/Ottos and often Prussia which means their lack of quality ANNIHILATES them.

This is kind of a pet peeve of mine because there's a large disconnect on the forums over Russia. They're not even one of the strongest countries for single player because there are many other countries that do the whole "expand until you've won" play style better.

You are spot on.

 

[TheDungen]

Antakiya or antioch could not be a holy site in 1444 on account that the city was completely leveled in 1268.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antioch#Fall_of_Antioch

"1432 there were only about 300 inhabited houses within its walls,"

 

[Trin Tragula]

Antakiya or antioch could not be a holy site in 1444 on account that the city was completely leveled in 1268.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antioch#Fall_of_Antioch

"1432 there were only about 300 inhabited houses within its walls,"

And it could not have been restored had a country favoring the (still quite living both then and now) patriarchate of Antioch retaken the city of Antakya right next to the old seat?

The Coptic sites are about restoring a church that has been on the retreat for a long time in 1444.

 

[TheDungen]

And it could not have been restored had a country favoring the (still quite living both then and now) patriarchate of Antioch retaken the city of Antakya right next to the old seat?

The Coptic sites are about restoring a church that has been on the retreat for a long time in 1444.

While possible I think you underestimate quite how completely the city was leveled.

 

[Grand Historian]

While possible I think you underestimate quite how completely the city was leveled.

Perhaps, but it's still a Province in game nonetheless. At the least I don't think it would be too far a stretch to say that there could be a church/monastery/patriarchal residence reestablished in the province, even if the city itself was never truly rebuilt. And even then it wouldn't be entirely impossible; Smyrna was leveled and rebuilt multiple times.

 

[TheDungen]

Perhaps, but it's still a Province in game nonetheless. At the least I don't think it would be too far a stretch to say that there could be a church/monastery/patriarchal residence reestablished in the province, even if the city itself was never truly rebuilt. And even then it wouldn't be entirely impossible; Smyrna was leveled and rebuilt multiple times.

Yes but the significance of Antioch is the city and there's nothing left of that. But yeah I guess a shrine or even temple could be built to mark the spot. But the city and it's temples and relics are all scattered to the wind, it's people sold into slavery.
Honestly I am a bit surprised that this is not something more well known, Antioch was the birthplace of Christianity, the second holiest city next to only jerusalem, and the destruction of it makes the sackings of rome and constaninople seem tame. I had always assumed the city still existed I only found out it was even destroyed when I went to look if Antioch was in present day syria or turkey (Because Johan couldn't remember which in the live stream).

 

[Trin Tragula]

While possible I think you underestimate quite how completely the city was leveled.

It's more about the symbolism of it. In 1444 the Syriac patriarch of Antioch was residing in a monastery in southern modern turkey iirc.
Securing the ancient seat of a see covering Christian followers entirely in non-Christian lands would likely be seen as a victory no matter the state of the actual city (and with 300 inhabited houses it's certainly still a city by 1444s standards, even if it's a small one).

 

[TheDungen]

It's more about the symbolism of it. In 1444 the Syriac patriarch of Antioch was residing in a monastery in southern modern turkey iirc.
Securing the ancient seat of a see covering Christian followers entirely in non-Christian lands would likely be seen as a victory no matter the state of the actual city (and with 300 inhabited houses it's certainly still a city by 1444s standards, even if it's a small one).

Well as long as you are aware of it. I'm sure you'll do a great job with flavour text for retaking it. Go make sure all the EU4 players get to know the tragic fate of antioch mr content designer =)

 

[Bella Gerant]

Yes but the significance of Antioch is the city and there's nothing left of that. But yeah I guess a shrine or even temple could be built to mark the spot. But the city and it's temples and relics are all scattered to the wind, it's people sold into slavery.
Honestly I am a bit surprised that this is not something more well known, Antioch was the birthplace of Christianity, the second holiest city next to only jerusalem, and the destruction of it makes the sackings of rome and constaninople seem tame. I had always assumed the city still existed I only found out it was even destroyed when I went to look if Antioch was in present day syria or turkey (Because Johan couldn't remember which in the live stream).

The Holy Site status is more of the significance of Antioch as the house of the Patriarchate, no? Jerusalem wasn't really strategically useful (more of hindrance, really) or highly populated, yet it was one of the most desired cities in the world due to its religious significance. I mean, Mecca would still be a religious site for Muslims even if it was leveled because of its link to the Prophet.

Besides, Jerusalem has been "destroyed at least twice, besieged 23 times, attacked 52 times, and captured and recaptured 44 times." Which is quite a bit for a region with not much to speak of in regards to natural resources, population, trade significance, strategic positioning, and really more of a bulls-eye reading "Crusade/jihad here."

It's more about the symbolism of it. In 1444 the Syriac patriarch of Antioch was residing in a monastery in southern modern turkey iirc.
Securing the ancient seat of a see covering Christian followers entirely in non-Christian lands would likely be seen as a victory no matter the state of the actual city (and with 300 inhabited houses it's certainly still a city by 1444s standards, even if it's a small one).

Oh, out of curiosity, will there be flavour events or decisions regarding the Holy Sites for Copts? Maybe one time events/decisions adding development to them to symbolize their revitalization? Or at least a "we've done it, whoo!" pop up? Because that was, to me, always the most jarring thing about taking Alexandria as Ethiopia (having nothing, aside from the +1 missionary modifier, happen when retaking one of the holiest site in a religion).

EDIT: Also, will there be any specific order to which the AI Coptic nations will select their blessings (like how certain nations take certain idea groups) or will it just be random?

 

[TheDungen]

The Holy Site status is more of the significance of Antioch as the house of the Patriarchate, no? Jerusalem wasn't really strategically useful (more of hindrance, really) or highly populated, yet it was one of the most desired cities in the world due to its religious significance. I mean, Mecca would still be a religious site for Muslims even if it was leveled because of its link to the Prophet.

Besides, Jerusalem has been "destroyed at least twice, besieged 23 times, attacked 52 times, and captured and recaptured 44 times." Which is quite a bit for a region with not much to speak of in regards to natural resources, population, trade significance, strategic positioning, and really more of a bulls-eye reading "Crusade/jihad here."

Like I said the destruction of Antioch was above and beyond what's usual for a sacking, the only thing I could compare it to are stuff like the sacking of Kiev.

Oh, out of curiosity, will there be flavour events or decisions regarding the Holy Sites for Copts? Maybe one time events/decisions adding development to them to symbolize their revitalization? Or at least a "we've done it, whoo!" pop up? Because that was, to me, always the most jarring thing about taking Alexandria as Ethiopia (having nothing, aside from the +1 missionary modifier, happen when retaking one of the holiest site in a religion).

I would very much like this, an event which says, "This is the place, this is why it's important, and now it's ours again." Considering the nature of coptic holy sites perhaps an event/messege that fires if one is lost? Just a "The holy site of x has been lost to us, the coptic faith is in uproar" and so on.

 

[Trin Tragula]

There are in fact both events and missions for retaking the sites (and for some more places as well).

 

[CaptainCrape]

Will this be added for any other religions? I think if an Orthodox nation controls Constantinople, it should grant a bonus.