There should be rubber in Belgian Congo, as historically it did produce a fair amount of rubber. How much? Not enough to be ground breaking or to be comparable to Indochina and Indonesia, but enough to be represented.
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Rubber...an Asian affair?
- Thread starter dukeLeopold
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Synthetic factories are in the game and produce 5 oil and 2 rubber : http://www.hoi4wiki.com/Construction
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That's still stupid though. What if I don't want rubber? What if I've got rubber coming out of my bloomin' ears? I just desperately need oil and I'm forced to turn some of my precious black gold into an even bigger surplus of rubber...
Synthetic production of oil was pretty significant before the war, and grew massively during it.
Try reading before responding.
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There are citations in the Wikipedia page that give more information if you are interested.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belgian_Congo_in_World_War_II#Economic_contribution:
"Soon after the arrival of the Belgian government in exile in London, negotiations began between the Belgians and the British about the role which the Congo would play in the Allied war effort.[7] The British were determined that the Congo should not fall into Axis hands, and planned to invade and occupy the colony if the Belgians did not come to an arrangement. This was particularly because, after the fall of Dutch and British colonies in the Far East to Japan, the Allies were desperate for raw materials like rubber which the Congo could produce in abundance.[7]"
Regardless of how much rubber it produced, the Allies did rely greatly upon the Congo for rubber supplies, to the point where the British were planning to invade it incase the Axis tried to take it, similar to the situation with Norway (though as you should know, the Axis beat them to it).
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Belgian Congo rubber exportations 1940-45, from : http://global.mongabay.com/news/bioenergy/2006/09/recycling-past-rehabilitating-congos.html
1940 --- 697 tons
1941 --- 1318 tons
1942 --- 1643 tons --- 5% of african production
1943 --- 7974 tons --- 17% of african production
1944 --- 11287 tons --- 21% of african production
1945 --- 7989 tons --- 15% of african production
Now, I don't know how it translate in HOI4 game terms.
EDIT: indicated the % of african production using figures from my post #28.
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Rubber production in Americas and Africa 1942-45. From The control of rubber in WW2 (Paul Wendt, 1947) in Southern Economic Journal.
Total production of rubber and latex in American countries
1942 --- 31 378 tons
1943 --- 38 836 tons
1944 --- 46 711 tons
1945 --- 44 683 tons
Total production of rubber and latex in African countries
1942 --- 30 588 tons
1943 --- 46 235 tons
1944 --- 54 920 tons
1945 --- 53 463 tons
Total production of rubber and latex in American countries
1942 --- 31 378 tons
1943 --- 38 836 tons
1944 --- 46 711 tons
1945 --- 44 683 tons
Total production of rubber and latex in African countries
1942 --- 30 588 tons
1943 --- 46 235 tons
1944 --- 54 920 tons
1945 --- 53 463 tons
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The rest of the article about Belgian Congo makes no mention of rubber as an important product in Belgian Congo (now Democratic Republic of Congo). Here is a list of the top ten producers in the world today:
http://www.perfectinsider.com/top-ten-rubber-producing-countries-in-the-world/
No sign of DRC. And even if they were 11th, Sri Lanka is producing about 1% of world production. Then this:
http://www.targetmap.com/viewer.aspx?reportId=11365
DRC doesn't display anything. But, yes, dig hard enough and they do have some rubber production:
http://www.factfish.com/statistic/natural rubber, production quantity
23rd in the world, producing 12,000 tons. That's 0.3% of Thailand's production alone. Or about 0.1% of world production.
That would put 2 rubber in Congo out of the HOI4 world total of about 2000. Belgium would have to put 80% of that for sale on the world market. No-one would buy it from Belgium, because you "sell" one civilian factory for 8 resources normally, so you would always choose to go to someone who could sell 8 not 1 or 2. Germany couldn't get it if they capture Belgium's territories in Europe, if Belgium is in a faction. And it's difficult to imagine any of the Axis bothering to invade just for that. IRL they had copper, cobalt, diamonds, uranium and other agricultural products, not featured in the game. A mod that made uranium important for nukes might make someone invade.
Still, the game is a "resource mess" without the Congo's rubber
http://www.perfectinsider.com/top-ten-rubber-producing-countries-in-the-world/
No sign of DRC. And even if they were 11th, Sri Lanka is producing about 1% of world production. Then this:
http://www.targetmap.com/viewer.aspx?reportId=11365
DRC doesn't display anything. But, yes, dig hard enough and they do have some rubber production:
http://www.factfish.com/statistic/natural rubber, production quantity
23rd in the world, producing 12,000 tons. That's 0.3% of Thailand's production alone. Or about 0.1% of world production.
That would put 2 rubber in Congo out of the HOI4 world total of about 2000. Belgium would have to put 80% of that for sale on the world market. No-one would buy it from Belgium, because you "sell" one civilian factory for 8 resources normally, so you would always choose to go to someone who could sell 8 not 1 or 2. Germany couldn't get it if they capture Belgium's territories in Europe, if Belgium is in a faction. And it's difficult to imagine any of the Axis bothering to invade just for that. IRL they had copper, cobalt, diamonds, uranium and other agricultural products, not featured in the game. A mod that made uranium important for nukes might make someone invade.
Still, the game is a "resource mess" without the Congo's rubber
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The rest of the article about Belgian Congo makes no mention of rubber as an important product in Belgian Congo (now Democratic Republic of Congo). Here is a list of the top ten producers in the world today:
http://www.perfectinsider.com/top-ten-rubber-producing-countries-in-the-world/
No sign of DRC. And even if they were 11th, Sri Lanka is producing about 1% of world production. Then this:
http://www.targetmap.com/viewer.aspx?reportId=11365
DRC doesn't display anything. But, yes, dig hard enough and they do have some rubber production:
http://www.factfish.com/statistic/natural rubber, production quantity
23rd in the world, producing 12,000 tons. That's 0.3% of Thailand's production alone. Or about 0.1% of world production.
That would put 2 rubber in Congo out of the HOI4 world total of about 2000. Belgium would have to put 80% of that for sale on the world market. No-one would buy it from Belgium, because you "sell" one civilian factory for 8 resources normally, so you would always choose to go to someone who could sell 8 not 1 or 2. Germany couldn't get it if they capture Belgium's territories in Europe, if Belgium is in a faction. And it's difficult to imagine any of the Axis bothering to invade just for that. IRL they had copper, cobalt, diamonds, uranium and other agricultural products, not featured in the game. A mod that made uranium important for nukes might make someone invade.
Still, the game is a "resource mess" without the Congo's rubber
Production statistics from 2010 are not equivalent to 1940 production statistics.
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Are you serious when comparing todays numbers with 1940-1945 ?
The production of many resources completely changed in 75 years. Some countries completely abandoned the production of some resources, started other productions, some resources where discovered that weren't found or exploited before.
Also, global production of all resources increased dramatically, as well as population and industrialization. So comparing today's production with ww2 production is an aberration.
For exemple, Canada now produce close to 4 millions barrels/day of oil. Using you reverse historical comparison, Canada should be a major oil producer in HOI4. The reality is Canada only produced 100 000 barrels/day in 1950.
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I think it's been shown here that Congo started with very minor rubber production but it was then ramped up. Obviously hoi4's static resource model is a bit problematic as a means of representing this, but it is solvable. Just as Italy gets a NF to develop Lybian oil fields, Belgium/UK could get a NF to develop rubber in the Congo.
Just a thought.
Just a thought.
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After losing Malaya, UK could rely on Ceylon (Sri Lanka) which produced 88 000 tons in 1941. UK had large stockpiles and this production was enough for their consumption, they even exported some of their reserves to the US, which came back as finished products under lend-lease.
True. Case in point, oil production in the Middle East is vastly different between then (which was about at Romania's production levels) and now (Romania makes oil?)
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I only mentioned UK because of this:
That makes it seem like the British were worried. I don't know any better. Obviously the numbers you found for Ceylon far surpass the numbers for the Congo (great work on those, btw). On the other hand, perhaps they were worried they would lose it--certainly something that might happen in hoi4 and given British experiences with Japan on Borneo and Singapore, not to mention their occupation of Burma, I wouldn't be surprised if they had given it some thought by 1943.
Anyhow, I was just trying to point out how ramping production up might be achieved.
That makes it seem like the British were worried. I don't know any better. Obviously the numbers you found for Ceylon far surpass the numbers for the Congo (great work on those, btw). On the other hand, perhaps they were worried they would lose it--certainly something that might happen in hoi4 and given British experiences with Japan on Borneo and Singapore, not to mention their occupation of Burma, I wouldn't be surprised if they had given it some thought by 1943.
Anyhow, I was just trying to point out how ramping production up might be achieved.
Surely the UK was worried about losing Ceylon, the Japanese attacked them there: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easter_Sunday_Raid
Result, Japanese tactical victory. One British aircraft carrier, two heavy cruisers, one auxiliary cruiser, two destroyers and one corvette lost.
The most dangerous moment of the War, and the one which caused me the greatest alarm, was when the Japanese Fleet was heading for Ceylon and the naval base there. The capture of Ceylon, the consequent control of the Indian Ocean, and the possibility at the same time of a German conquest of Egypt would have closed the ring and the future would have been black.
Winston Churchill
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In the context of the historical figures you already produced. Total production in all of Africa was less than 55,000 tons:
And we know that Nigeria, Liberia, Cameroon, Ghana and Gabon all currently produce significantly more than DRC. It's a pretty reasonable assumption DRC was not producing all of the African rubber in the war. That it was probably producing something similar to now, and it's production has remained fairly static, given how stagnant the DRC economy is. While some other's have invested and built up their production. They are one of the poorest countries in the world, despite their mineral deposits. And it covers a massive area. It doesn't seem likely that they had much more production in 1945 than 12,000 tons, and then just chopped down their rubber trees.
The devs gave Liberia 4 rubber. Recent data is 63,000 tons Liberia, 12,000 DRC. Is there any evidence that Congo actually produced as much or more than Liberia in the 1940s?
And that it would actually make a difference to game play.
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May I suggest that:
(1) Congo's 11,000 is 20% of the reported African 1944 production of 55,000--not exactly insignificant.
(2) you follow the link provided as citation (here it is again: http://global.mongabay.com/news/bioenergy/2006/09/recycling-past-rehabilitating-congos.html) because it shows the assumption on Congo being stagnant 1945-2013 to be as wrong as anyone might have anticipated. Production appears to have peaked at 33,000 tonnes in the late 50's.
As right as you may be about the unfortunate state of the DRC, we shouldn't forget this is the result of years of mismanagement by the Mobutu regime and more recent events like the great lakes war. The assumption that nothing would change between 1945 and 2013 is quite outlandish, in any case.
(1) Congo's 11,000 is 20% of the reported African 1944 production of 55,000--not exactly insignificant.
(2) you follow the link provided as citation (here it is again: http://global.mongabay.com/news/bioenergy/2006/09/recycling-past-rehabilitating-congos.html) because it shows the assumption on Congo being stagnant 1945-2013 to be as wrong as anyone might have anticipated. Production appears to have peaked at 33,000 tonnes in the late 50's.
As right as you may be about the unfortunate state of the DRC, we shouldn't forget this is the result of years of mismanagement by the Mobutu regime and more recent events like the great lakes war. The assumption that nothing would change between 1945 and 2013 is quite outlandish, in any case.
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Still comparing 1940-45 apples with 2015 oranges (big sigh !).
Japan was the third biggest car producer in 2015 with 9,278,238 cars, so using you dubious method we can assume they were also one of the biggest car producer in 1940 ?
Small problem in 1950 they were just producing 31,597 cars. So their production was 0,3% what it is now. Look how your method is utterly ridiculous.
Your assumptions are not reasonable at all. When talking about 1940, your should bring figures from this time frame in the debate. Where are your figures for Liberia in 1940 ? That would be useful to scale what Belgian Congo should be producing in 1940 as I produced the figures for all of Africa at that time.
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