When I asked about the Qabila I was actually wondering about succession within clans.
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DLC idea - Qabila - Desert tribes, Slaves, Cadet branches and enhanced islam
- Thread starter elvain
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I thouhgt I have answered this when describing the tribal seniority in which the new clan leader will be a clan member with the highest prestige.
But only later I realized that I didn't mention the potential case when there will be no other clan member. In that case the succession falls on the leading clan of the entire Qabila. If there is no leading clan in the Qabila, it should be inherited by the closest male relative according to open succession used in Iqta.
But that led me to realize that I still haven't described the structure of tribes/clans below the d_level leader... so the next part will be about internal structure of tribes and the difference between the Qabilas and Hordes.
I hope the devs see this - if they actually implemented this I might just start playing as a Muslim more often.
Sorry, I didn't realize this sentence was describing succession within clans; I thought it was about the Qabila.
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DEVS I'LL PAY TONS FOR THIS!
I also made thread about representing ghulams(through bonuses and rebellion risks they could bring) for a more realistic late-game dynastic change but this one is very well outlined.
I also made thread about representing ghulams(through bonuses and rebellion risks they could bring) for a more realistic late-game dynastic change but this one is very well outlined.
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Hats off to the original poster of the thread!
Seems he has put much effort and historical research in this. Actually I am more a fan of fleshening out Romuva, Slavic, Suomenesko & Western African religions. However I would be really interested in something like this!
Seems he has put much effort and historical research in this. Actually I am more a fan of fleshening out Romuva, Slavic, Suomenesko & Western African religions. However I would be really interested in something like this!
Thanks for all these positive reactions. It really helps the ideas to keep flowing
Could you please share a link to it so we could combine our ideas for the sake of better CK2?
I think something like this is not just an improvement, it is a must-have. Muslim states are too badly represented for the level of sophistication the game has reached. It feels too dull to me.
I think it is not necessary when you made such a detailed planning.
Mine was more simple. Basically, Muslim states that fulfill certain requirements would be able to buy ghulams on the intrigue screen and use them like the viceroyalities. However, there'd be a dynamic which would let ghulams accumulate power(perhaps as faction) or event depending on again certain requirements which would start a rebellion.
So ghulams could be very useful but if they get powerfull, can overthrow you.
So there'd be a whole new level of event-chains relating to ghulams.
I think it is not necessary when you made such a detailed planning.
Mine was more simple. Basically, Muslim states that fulfill certain requirements would be able to buy ghulams on the intrigue screen and use them like the viceroyalities. However, there'd be a dynamic which would let ghulams accumulate power(perhaps as faction) or event depending on again certain requirements which would start a rebellion.
So ghulams could be very useful but if they get powerfull, can overthrow you.
So there'd be a whole new level of event-chains relating to ghulams.
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no need to be sorry. It was really very easily overlookable... and also your posts made me realize that the workings inside the clan need to be explained in more detail... and it also helped me to find out a solution for one previously discussed and unsolved issue.
More to come soon
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Part/Chapter 8 - Inside the Qabila tribe (Ashira) and differences between Qabila and Horde
As already mentioned, the most visible difference will be the tier.
While every independent Horde is at e_tier, the natural tier of independent Qabila entities will be a Tribe with d_ title and the supreme leader of the Qabila confederation will have k_tier, as I have shown in one of previous posts.
In the Qabila table you can have 2 views. One, where you can overview your entire Qabila confederation and interact with the other Tribes (the d_titles, ashiras, previously often called clans, but from now on a clan will have different meaning). Here is the Tribal confederation view:
Here is the basic upper structure of the Qabila confederation - the various tribes (d_ashira), which can gain supreme leadership in the Qabila confederation or, if they conquer a de-jure kingdom, they can change their government to Mulk and still remain as member tribe of the Qabila tribal confederation.
However, unlike the Horde nomads, the Qabila desert nomads can hold also lower titles including c_ and b_ tiers.
These can be overviewd and interacted in the other Qabila table: The tribe, where you can look inside your own tribe.
So finally, let's see the structure of the Qabila:
- the basic unit of the confederation is the Tribe (d_ashira)
- the d_ashira can ascend to a k_qabila title if it is succesfull in uniting all other tribes /ashiras/ of the Qabila tribal confederation.
- the d_ashira can also ascend to k_mulk (a landed de jure kingdom) and convert itself to a Mulk government.
- below the tribe d_ashira, there are c_ tier titles, the clans of the tribe.
On the screen you can see that the Tribe has 5 clans, but the tribe can effectively exist with no more than 1 clan.
The Clan of the Qabila tribe
- a clan is effectively a tribe's dynasty which holds land. In case of the Qabila government it means a province with The Oasis holding (see below)
- A Clan is created when an Oasis holding is granted to member of a dynasty who isn't a direct relative of the Tribal leader (that means his uncle, cousin or any further relative) and it in fact means creating a cadet branch of the Tribal leader's dynasty.
- Succession inside the Clan is - in case of muslims - an open succession (while in the Tribe it is a clan leader with highest prestige), in case of others it would be seniority.
- When the your own successor's prestige is not high enough, you can send him on raids so he would gain more prestige and also this way he can spread your tribe even to lands controlled by the sedentary rulers (see below under oases)
Land ownership and power of Qabila tribe
- like the Horde, also Qabila tribes will get their power from combination of development of their special holdings and empty provinces.
- the difference is that Qabila nomads won't be too dependent on free holding slots and will be more tied to their settlements - oases
- the manpower will be combination of free herding land (empty holdings) and number of oases controlled by the tribe (each tribe as well as clan can own multiple oases, as they will build oases in every province they [directly] control)
The Oasis holding
- The Oasis is a new holding introduced by the Qabila DLC
- It is available only in provinces with desert terrain, or with province with other terrain (except forest and jungle) which a) either has some portion of desert, or b) has border with a desert province.
- it can only be built by rulers of the Qabila government and also can only be granted to somebody, who is a member of some Qabila. It can not be granted to somebody who isn't member of a Qabila.
- Oasis can be built in any province, which is controlled by the Qabila ruler - that means the province does not need to be owned, but all its holdings have to be conquered by the Qabila ruler until it is finnished.
- Oasis can be built in province whose direct ruler is not Qabila nomad, but is a vasal of Qabila nomad.
- Oasis effectively uses 2 holding slots. That means, if Oasis is built in a province, there has to be at least one empty holding slot. If an Oasis is built as the last available holding, one of already existing holdings will be razed to the ground and will change into empty holding slot, which will be blocked as long as the Oasis exists.
- in order to build holdings in all settlements slots, the Oasis needs to be razed. It means that desert provinces with only 2 holding slots with an Oasis built cannot be turned into feudal or other government, so it prevents Sahara and other such regions becomming feudal, even if they are conquered by Europeans. The fact that the Oasis can not be held by nobody who isn't in a Qabila also means that these desert regions will be very hard to controll by Europeans and others.
- Provinces with Oases can be conquered by foreigners and if there is enough slots, other holdings can be built there (also by the Qabila nomads themselves) and these county and barony level Qabila nomads can be vasalized by rulers with other governments. However, the vasalage will only last until the death of either of rulers (like CK2 tribute) and then the vasalage needs to be re-established.
Army of the Qabila tribe
- army will work similarily like in the Horde.
- The Qabila ruler can have levies from his non-Qabila vasals and he can also raise levies from his Oasis settlements
- the core of the army will, however, be the Tribal army. Its strength (the number of units the ruler can raise) depends on manpower, which is calculated from number of empty holdings in provinces he owns* and number of oases he owns (and their level of development)
- in all other aspects the Qabila tribal army works like the Horde, except the type of units used. The Qabila tribal army uses mainly camel cavalry and light cavalry (with some minor differences in various cultures)
* this number includes also all empty holding slots in provinces where oasis is built as barony, but isn't province capital
As already mentioned, the most visible difference will be the tier.
While every independent Horde is at e_tier, the natural tier of independent Qabila entities will be a Tribe with d_ title and the supreme leader of the Qabila confederation will have k_tier, as I have shown in one of previous posts.
In the Qabila table you can have 2 views. One, where you can overview your entire Qabila confederation and interact with the other Tribes (the d_titles, ashiras, previously often called clans, but from now on a clan will have different meaning). Here is the Tribal confederation view:
Here is the basic upper structure of the Qabila confederation - the various tribes (d_ashira), which can gain supreme leadership in the Qabila confederation or, if they conquer a de-jure kingdom, they can change their government to Mulk and still remain as member tribe of the Qabila tribal confederation.
However, unlike the Horde nomads, the Qabila desert nomads can hold also lower titles including c_ and b_ tiers.
These can be overviewd and interacted in the other Qabila table: The tribe, where you can look inside your own tribe.
So finally, let's see the structure of the Qabila:
- the basic unit of the confederation is the Tribe (d_ashira)
- the d_ashira can ascend to a k_qabila title if it is succesfull in uniting all other tribes /ashiras/ of the Qabila tribal confederation.
- the d_ashira can also ascend to k_mulk (a landed de jure kingdom) and convert itself to a Mulk government.
- below the tribe d_ashira, there are c_ tier titles, the clans of the tribe.
On the screen you can see that the Tribe has 5 clans, but the tribe can effectively exist with no more than 1 clan.
The Clan of the Qabila tribe
- a clan is effectively a tribe's dynasty which holds land. In case of the Qabila government it means a province with The Oasis holding (see below)
- A Clan is created when an Oasis holding is granted to member of a dynasty who isn't a direct relative of the Tribal leader (that means his uncle, cousin or any further relative) and it in fact means creating a cadet branch of the Tribal leader's dynasty.
- Succession inside the Clan is - in case of muslims - an open succession (while in the Tribe it is a clan leader with highest prestige), in case of others it would be seniority.
- When the your own successor's prestige is not high enough, you can send him on raids so he would gain more prestige and also this way he can spread your tribe even to lands controlled by the sedentary rulers (see below under oases)
Land ownership and power of Qabila tribe
- like the Horde, also Qabila tribes will get their power from combination of development of their special holdings and empty provinces.
- the difference is that Qabila nomads won't be too dependent on free holding slots and will be more tied to their settlements - oases
- the manpower will be combination of free herding land (empty holdings) and number of oases controlled by the tribe (each tribe as well as clan can own multiple oases, as they will build oases in every province they [directly] control)
The Oasis holding
- The Oasis is a new holding introduced by the Qabila DLC
- It is available only in provinces with desert terrain, or with province with other terrain (except forest and jungle) which a) either has some portion of desert, or b) has border with a desert province.
- it can only be built by rulers of the Qabila government and also can only be granted to somebody, who is a member of some Qabila. It can not be granted to somebody who isn't member of a Qabila.
- Oasis can be built in any province, which is controlled by the Qabila ruler - that means the province does not need to be owned, but all its holdings have to be conquered by the Qabila ruler until it is finnished.
- Oasis can be built in province whose direct ruler is not Qabila nomad, but is a vasal of Qabila nomad.
- Oasis effectively uses 2 holding slots. That means, if Oasis is built in a province, there has to be at least one empty holding slot. If an Oasis is built as the last available holding, one of already existing holdings will be razed to the ground and will change into empty holding slot, which will be blocked as long as the Oasis exists.
- in order to build holdings in all settlements slots, the Oasis needs to be razed. It means that desert provinces with only 2 holding slots with an Oasis built cannot be turned into feudal or other government, so it prevents Sahara and other such regions becomming feudal, even if they are conquered by Europeans. The fact that the Oasis can not be held by nobody who isn't in a Qabila also means that these desert regions will be very hard to controll by Europeans and others.
- Provinces with Oases can be conquered by foreigners and if there is enough slots, other holdings can be built there (also by the Qabila nomads themselves) and these county and barony level Qabila nomads can be vasalized by rulers with other governments. However, the vasalage will only last until the death of either of rulers (like CK2 tribute) and then the vasalage needs to be re-established.
Army of the Qabila tribe
- army will work similarily like in the Horde.
- The Qabila ruler can have levies from his non-Qabila vasals and he can also raise levies from his Oasis settlements
- the core of the army will, however, be the Tribal army. Its strength (the number of units the ruler can raise) depends on manpower, which is calculated from number of empty holdings in provinces he owns* and number of oases he owns (and their level of development)
- in all other aspects the Qabila tribal army works like the Horde, except the type of units used. The Qabila tribal army uses mainly camel cavalry and light cavalry (with some minor differences in various cultures)
* this number includes also all empty holding slots in provinces where oasis is built as barony, but isn't province capital
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Thanks. Well, I did a few DDs (for mods), and this is much easier, since you don't have to force yourslef to hide/keep some things unmentioned.
I need to edit also previous chapters to put some images there so it is easier to imagine (since I know sometimes the processes/mechanics are a little complex)
This is one of the most comprehensive suggestion threads I have ever seen. Spectacular!
There's one more thing I should have posted when talking about oases. Here is an overview of where I think the oases should be buildable - the orange line.
And then there's the red area which means that those provinces have only 2 holdings and one of them is oasis and therefore it is not possible to build there anything else than oasis... so the final effect is that these areas can only be directly ruled by the rulers with Qabila government.
It also means this will effectively halt, complicate or at least slow down any westwards expansion of Egypt, will disable compact trans-Saharan empires (of other than Qabila government, that is), will make long lasting rule over Arabia virtually impossible (for anyone of other than Qabila government) etc.
I have excluded Egypt from the orange area, that is not because it shouldn't be possible to build oases there, but the provinces of Egypt should usualy have most of their holdings already built in most of the time, so building an oasis there would require pillaging. And the same goes for Nubia.
Unfortunately there's no trace of the devs even noticing this
And then there's the red area which means that those provinces have only 2 holdings and one of them is oasis and therefore it is not possible to build there anything else than oasis... so the final effect is that these areas can only be directly ruled by the rulers with Qabila government.
It also means this will effectively halt, complicate or at least slow down any westwards expansion of Egypt, will disable compact trans-Saharan empires (of other than Qabila government, that is), will make long lasting rule over Arabia virtually impossible (for anyone of other than Qabila government) etc.
I have excluded Egypt from the orange area, that is not because it shouldn't be possible to build oases there, but the provinces of Egypt should usualy have most of their holdings already built in most of the time, so building an oasis there would require pillaging. And the same goes for Nubia.
Thank you!
Unfortunately there's no trace of the devs even noticing this
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Don't worry, they do read these forums.Thank you!
Unfortunately there's no trace of the devs even noticing this
This may sound like a stupid question, but do Muslims in other parts of the world (like a Islamic Vikings) just have Iqta and use none of these other mechanics? They wouldn't even have access to Quabila mechanics or things like that, right?
Not really.
Muslims of certain cultures (Arab group, Berber group, Beja and Turks*) should remain in their Tribal confederations (Qabilas) even if they don't follow the nomadic way of life anymore.
They would normally operate under the Iqta, or (more often) the Mulk government and still have access to their tribal mechanics and armies, but the difference is that without Oases their tribal army would be considerably weaker, thus forcing them to be increasingly dependent on Ghulams (predominantly) and their personal levies (which would be still relatively weak compared to other governments).
As we are at this hypothetical situation, it should even be possible for other cultures to use Qabila tribal mechanics under certain circumstances. If for instance in some triba a clan leader has his heir educated in other (i.e. Frankish) culture and this heir happens to become tribal leader (he would have large maluses for different culture, but it should still be possible) and thus, in the end there could even be a Frankish Tribe within some Qabila - but this kind of co-existence shouldn't be able to last long (opinion maluses harming relations and thus causing this alien Tribe to be kicked out of the Qabila) But if such a tribe manages to survive, it should have theoretical chance to create its own (Frankish) Qabila.
And while we're at it, the opinion maluses between say, Franksh and Arab cultures should be much larger than between Arab and Berber, who should be able to coexist little longer).
*though in their case it is more complicated. In this particular culture (group) they deffinitely should be Horde as long as they are pagan, but the Seljuks, once they convert to Islam and come under persian influence, should work under Qabila rules instead - IMHO it could be done via cultural conversion into Turkmen culture, which, unlike the Oghuz and other Turkic (Horde) cultures, is a Qabila culture.
EDIT: Also there still are those Mountaineer Tribal confederations (Qabilas), who don't need Oases and their tribal army's strength is based on number of normal settlements owned/controlled by the Tribe.
Which would be perfect for modeling, say, Vikings in Scandinavia that convert to Islam rather than Christianity.
Lots of mountains up there near the fjords, which I am often pining for anyway.