Why didn't Africa develop before the modern era?

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The same rule can be applied to many nations, whether in South America or in other parts of the world. The key really is how a country best exploits its available resources or perks; whether it be natural wealth, labour, industrial/agricultural capacity, commodities, geographic location and so forth.

A place with a large internal set of markets will have less use for trading partners than a small one. For example a state with an internal population of 1 million cannot reasonably be one of the worlds foremost producers of stained glass, porcelain, silk, sugar, ships AND coffee - it's markets, geographical reach and population are simply too small to do all these things well and on a large scale compared to overall world production simultaneously. By contrast in an internal market with 100 million people in it (like medieval China) can easily have major centers for all these different trades, agricultural products and manufacturers simultaneously while also specializing in dozens of others.
 
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But is that enough to attribute it a major role for whole China?

Absolutely - rice didn't become an important crop until fairly late in China's history as the southern areas of Modern day China were gradually settled, and influenced by the rice growing areas of southern indochina. For most of the history of China wheat was THE important crop. Furthermore even after expanding into areas where rice cultivation was possible and important, the cultural and political center of China remained firmly fixed in the northern wheat growing regions right down to this very day.
 
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I was trying to generalise from a historical perspective on the development of human civilisation in Africa, hence unfortunately I didn't really delve much into modern examples. However, what you've said poses an important question; how do institutions affect social & economic development in modern African countries. I believe a great example of how the effects of institutions on an African development would be comparing the political evolution of modern Djibouti and Somalia. Both countries independent in the later half of the 20th century (Djibouti in 1977 and Somalia in 1960) and both are strategically situated along one of the most busiest commercial shipping lanes in the world - the Horn of Africa. However, they differ greatly in how institutional evolution affected what form of state they developed into. In colonial times, the Horn was pretty much dominated by Britain, France and Italy, hence there was an Italian Somaliland, a British Somaliland and a French Somaliland. Ethnically all those territories were dominated by a Somali populace in varying degrees (French Somaliland aka Djibouti has a sizable Afar minority). However because of the differing modes of colonial administration, each of the territories were markedly alien in how they were governed. The easiest way I can think of to explain the institutional difference amongst these entities would be how each entity dispensed the law and how much emphasis was placed into centralised rule.

The British basically went with their usual method of relying on local elites to collect taxes whilst giving them the privilege of dispensing justice amongst their own clans (basically a localised version of the British Raj). This kept their presence minimal and allowed them to create an effective colonial administration without spending too much resources in establishing a newer local bureaucracy. The Italians and the French used a more hands-on approach and invested a lot of capital in establishing judicial courts (using their civil code) and large civil administration which conducted all government affairs almost entirely in their respective languages; not Somali. When all three of those territories began to strive for independence, all of those territories were markedly alien in how they were administered. French Somaliland was mostly localised around its urban centre Djibouti, hence its administration was heavily centralised. Italian Somaliland was somewhat of an admixture, as it occupied a vast exterior dominated by pastoralist clan structures and yet had a large/strong centre of administration (Mogadishu); hence Italian Somaliland was ruled using a similarly centralised administration (which spoke exclusively in the Colonisers language) whilst recognising a relative amount of de-facto autonomy amongst the clans. When Somali territories started to gain self-governance, people in all those lands, including Djibouti, wanted to unify into a Greater Somalia. Though British and Italian Somaliland succeeded in becoming independent earlier, consequently forming Somalia - French Somaliland's road to self-rule was delayed (French vote-rigging). The new Somalia had a functioning government with a checks-and-balances as well as an effective judiciary. Despite this, it had to contend with various issues such as Somali irredentism and whether it should move towards unitary or federal governance. This didn't last long since Siad Barre would engage in his putsch almost a decade later.

By the time Djibouti achieved independence, its neighbour Somalia had transformed from a functioning pluralistic republic to a socialist dictatorship. In some ways, this indelibly influenced how the newly-free Djibouti would be ruled and after the French left it became a one-party state. Now here's the interesting part. Around the same time, both countries began to face hightening internal problems. Djibouti is as I stated before, is a multi-ethnic country. Unlike their cousins in Somalia however, most of the Somalis living Djibouti are organised in or around its urban centre (Djibouti City), hence relying on commerce and services rather than pastoral subsistence. The other major ethnicity, the Afar, were still nomadic pastoralists and territorially occupied the greater part of Djibouti's interior. Because the Somali's would naturally become the dominant political force, due to their presence in the more urban areas; the Afar were neglected, creating ethnic tensions. Somalia on the other hand, although rather homogeneous in its ethnic make-up; faced a similar but different conflict. Siad Barre being himself a dictator was averse to any idea of decentralised rule, least of all democracy. Since he was brought up in Italian Somaliland, the style of his governance was influenced by the Italians (he spoke quite perfect Italian aswell as English) and he thusly viewed the affairs conducted in British Somaliland with distrust (since they weren't Italophones like himself and his cronies). Hence he made it his life's work too diminish the power of the local clans in former British as well as Italian Somaliland and increase central authority by (quite ironically) placing people of clans affiliated familially in key positions of government.

He could have succeeded in his bid for centralisation, but like most things, unforeseen circumstances occurred. In '86 he was involved in a severe car crash, and so politically he was taken out of the picture. The council which took over naturally was roiled up in uncertainty, and to compensate the regime increased repressive activities to further diminish the power of the other clans. This greatly accelerated discontent amongst the bulk of Somalis (especially those who lived in the country). By 1990, the Somali Civil War started. Djibouti's case was rather a case of ethnic-conflict rather than between unitarian and federalist forces. Fundamentally however the conflict in Djibouti was in reverse. Since independence, the Afar mostly left out of the country's political affairs and as a result became neglected. The Djiboutian Civil War began in 1991 (a year after Siad Barre's regime in Somalia collapsed coincidentally enough), and although low-key and not as destructive compared to the conflict in neighbouring Somalia ,it had the effect of ending one-party rule and creating pluralistic governance. Hence, whilst Somalia devolved into a stateless society riddled with warlordism and poverty; with what was once former British Somaliland becoming a de-facto independent state (though a functioning stable one at the very least) - Djibouti became one of the most prosperous and pluralistic countries in the Horn of Africa. In essence, neither geography nor institutionalism should be ignored when it comes to understanding what shape or form African states developed into. Rather, a myriad of factors such as history, geography as well as a knowledge of differing systems of governance/institutions and the like are important when coming to grips with how countries in Africa 'work'. So essentially, trying to understand Africa is in some respects like trying to find the meaning of life.

By the way, I haven't read Guns, Germs and Steel and Why Nations Fail?, some of my friends have kept bugging me into reading the former but I just didn't had the time back then. Which do you think I should read first (or other books of a similar calibre)?

To answer your question on which I think you should consider reading first is Why Nations Fail: The Origins of Power, Prosperity, and Poverty (Acemoglu and Robinson). I would say your example of the Somalia region fits well into Acemoglu and Robinson's argument.

Djibouti is a 'prosperous and pluralistic society'. This is in contrast to Somaliland and its warlords; however, I believe that I have seen a recent news story that Somaliland is solving some of its problems. Acemoglu and Robinson would place Djibouti (post-civil war) in the category of currently having inclusive political and economic institutions from how you describe it above. As for Somaliland its institutions would be extractive systems due to being ruled by warlords.

As I tried to state above – inclusive and extractive institutions can not coexist under Acemoglu and Robinson argument. A society will either have extractive or inclusive institutions (but not both).

I must say I am impressed as you have touched on both arguments with out reading either book! As for other possible books I have to say first that Why Nations Fail is the Holy Grail for me! Simply put – the rules matter! Hernando de Soto's book the Mystery of Capital is also a good read. His argument (even thou he is considered a Neoliberalism and thus disliked by the left) is more in line with Acemoglu and Robinson argument. De Soto is also trying to understand that age old question as to why some nations are wealthy and others are not. He does capture the essence of Acemoglu and Robinson argument but he does not come out and say it as well as they have. Another book that is interesting is The Institutional Revolution: Measurement and the Economic Emergence of the Modern World by an economist named Douglas W. Allen. I had him as a prof when I did my BA and his book held my attention from cover to cover. He writes about the institutional change that England experienced from 1500 (iirc) to the late 1800's
 
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The reason why thinking a big internal market makes foreign trade unimportant is fallacious. It's not the size of the foreign economy that matters in a pre-industrial trade flow, it's whether they have something different to offer. The fact that China had a quarter of the world's production of calories doesn't lower the value of foreign goods. In fact it raises the potential market and profitability. The potato is an extreme example because a small number of potato imports could utterly transform a society but China was slow to adopt them.

Except, of course, that the potato and other crops from the Americas spread rapidly to China and were staple foods by the 18th century. Not really an example of sclerotic China falling behind Europe...
 
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that's the apologist for the tribute system speaking.

the reality is a bit more in line with the traditional interpretation of it. the Tribute system was international trade (in a perverted sense), but it was so horribly inefficient that it was basically an institutionalized system of graft for the imperial court. they weren't sucking resources out of their own people so much as destroying any opportunity for real international trade to develop AND enriching the decadent (yes, it was decadent) imperial court retainer structure.
The perception I'm trying to fight by being an "apologist" here is this:
The_Reception.JPG


The extreme caricature of decadent, backwards, unproductive China and its ignorant, regressive policies. The tribute system was inefficient and wasteful but it still enabled China to be the world's biggest trading nation for centuries. I was responding to a poster who was under the impression that the Chinese barely traded at all. See where I was going with that?

But is that enough to attribute it a major role for whole China?
Yep. Chinese civilization originated in the north and the Sinicization of the south was a long, gradual process (for example, Guangdong was conquered as early as the Qin dynasty but it wasn't until the Tang that the population was mostly ethnic Chinese). The south didn't become more populous or developed than the north until probably the Ming dynasty due to population growth from American crops and the increase in trade through Southern ports.
 
Expansion. Land which can be added to Empire with small cost. The problem was in heads rather than geography.
If you'd read the following sentence, you'd have read that my reason for the Chinese not expanding even further throughout Asia was because they considered ALL their neighbours to be "barbarians". The same reason can be applied to the Romans whom, similar to the Chinese, constructed the Limes Germanicus to keep the Germanic tribes from making incursions into the Empire; like the case between the Nomadic peoples of the steppe (Xiongnu, Göktürks, Mongols).

They got horses/cows/wheel/chariots/wheat/camels from outside
Putting wheel & wheat in that list is somewhat misleading as many scholars argue that they had already been developed or cultivated by the Chinese. Camels were relatively unimportant as the Chinese developed in the fertile interior between the Huáng Hé & Yangtze rivers; hence using "ships of the desert" didn't play a part in the formation of Chinese Civilisation. The only part camels would've been of any great import would've been in the creation of the Silk Road which only developed much later. Horses & chariots were indisputably introduced from the outside but even then, the list of outside tools which played a role in the development of Chinese culture is extremely small; the reverse was true. Finally cows... Seriously?

Honestly I don't know what you're actually attempting to argue, if you can elaborate I'd very much like to know.
 
Russia started on the back foot and the Germans kept them there until they ran out of momentum. Being unprepared for a sneak attack - the most massive invasion in history, by the way, isn't the same thing as mismanagement. True, command functions left a lot to be desired in 1941, but the response from '42 onwards was immense. How the Soviets halted the Germans at the gates of Moscow and Leningrad is heroic - and would not have been possible without a high level of logistical and tactical organisation.
It's just the wrong story and it's rooted in anti-Soviet prejudice.

None of that contradicts what he said. Look up CruelDwarf's translation of stuff about the Great Purge in this forum (History); the prewar quality of the officer corps was terrible

I don't have figures for that, but there were slums in New York, just as there were in Manchester. Many immigrants, having paid for their passage and lacking the funds to move on again, found themselves in a position where they had to accept whatever was offered. Come on, this is well known history - each successive wave of immigrants being exploited, if not abused, by people who were probably only 2nd generation Americans themselves. This is the immigrant's experience the world over - not just in America.

You know that half of the immigrants from Italy went back? They came to the US to make money and then returned home. The idea immigrants were completely helpless and exploited is nonsensical.

I was refuting the assertion that "Over-regulation has made a general negative impact" - and the evidence is that the Soviets were able to achieve extremely rapid industrial development through direction of resources and manpower in the 5 year plans. Efficiency, as such, probably wasn't the priority.

Low efficiency slows growth. Also a bit odd not to note outside factors; the great Depression making capital goods cheaper (which enabled Chile, Brazil and Mexico to also invest in heavy industry) is a big piece of the puzzle.
 
You know that half of the immigrants from Italy went back?
No. They didn't.
Frankly, I don't want to discuss anything with people who just invent statistics to back up their prejudices.
 
The thing about the Chinese "not expanding because their neighbors were barbarians" is that this seems to raise some awkward questions about the actual extent of Chinese expansion. In many respects, the China we see today is not far removed from its greatest extents; it was not always so large. The Miao tribes are probably among the most noteworthy, as they were not fully suppressed until the Qing Dynasty in spite of being in what is today "China" in spite of their conquest in the 13th century. When a solid economic or defensive benefit could be found in decisively defeating an enemy and expanding the grasp of Chinese governance, it is amazing how little the notion of "barbarians" emerges as a counter-argument and how much it appears as an argument in favor; the fate of the Dzungar Khanate against the Qing and, long before that, the Han against the Xiongnu, the Sui against the Goguryeo, or the overall tremendous military dynamism of the Tang. The Silk Road was the heartbeat of trade with the west, and that shows in Chinese military adventurism westward through the Gansu Corridor into the Tarim Basin. By contrast, Taiwan or the Philippines are peripheral islands home to peripheral polities, and relatively peaceful and/or poor ones at that; conquering them would require a significant military investment for not much additional return, unless you're a (to borrow and tweak the statement used earlier by another in this thread) map-painter or head-counter. Rather, Taiwan only became important when it became a potential threat to the Qing as the base of a Ming remnant, and the domination of trade in the Southeast never called for much more than the establishment of a few fortified trade bases in the Philippines by the Song.

Geographically, though, it is noteworthy to see how China actually did grow - every single one of its borders continued to spread away from the original core lands around the Yellow River until it reached some geographic obstacle, rolling over almost every military obstacle in their path. In the East, obviously, this was the Pacific. In the North, these are the vast steppes as well as the Gobi Desert and Altay and Yanshan Mountains: regions of exceptionally low population densities, few valuable resources (until the modern era), and obdurate tribes who were not worth the military cost of extracting tribute. To the West, the Taklamakan Desert, and beyond it and its chain of peripheral oases that formed the north and south branches of the Silk Road, the Pamirs, the Tian Shan, and the Kunlun Mountains all pose even greater obstacles which the Tang learned in particular were nearly insurmountable when it came to projecting military force into Central Asia beyond. To the South, Chinese civilization overran the Yue tribes of the Yangtze in the time of the Qin and Han, and kept right on going until they reached the jungles of Indochina and the mountains of Dali and Dian Kingdoms in the Yunnan. This pattern does not strike me as that of a non-expansionist, complacent and self-centered polity. Even the Ming, that late dynasty to which this position has been most often attributed, embarked on military campaigns in Yunnan, Vietnam, and Manchuria, the former of which was most successful, as well as multiple punitive expeditions against the Mongols and Oirats.

That said, a decline in military opportunism once these borders had been reached may not solely be to some sort of belief in one's superiority. By the same sort of broad-tarring brush, it could just as easily be attributed to this simple question - when one, as a ruler, has attained a hegemonic domination over a tremendous part of the world and is surrounded only by petty fiefs that largely exist because they are not worth the cost of conquering, what is the greatest threat to one's power? Essentially, the greatest threats to China once it attained its far east hegemony became not external, but rather internal threats. In its greatest manifestation being civil war, such as that in the Warring States or Three Kingdoms periods, internal unrest was destroyed more dynasties than the northern barbarians. The Qin fell before the Han, who themselves fell to internal unrest in the Three Kingdoms before eventual reunification. Even the conquest of China by the so-called foreign dynasties (the Jin, Yuan, and Qing for examples) tended to occur in times of already-present internal weakness, rather than sparking internal weakness themselves (famously, the Qing conquest took advantage of the self-styled founder of the Shun dynasty, siding with Ming remnants to crush him at Shanhai Pass before defeating the remaining other pretenders in detail - they would never have made the attempt had Wu Sangui not abandoned the northern fortifications in order to stop Li Zicheng). In light of this, the major military threat to China was, once it reached these "natural borders", in fact its own military. Any ambitious general would have no lack of inspirations in Chinese history to seize power in any time of political weakness. Certainly, sending such ambitious generals to establish some distant "Commandery of the [Cardinal Direction]" was an option, but it was also an option that, as the Jin learned from Qiao Zong who founded the Western Shu, could backfire if said general came home with the glory of conquest and a powerful army loyal to him. It was much safer to pare the military back and occasionally organize a retaliatory strikes if a few of the bordering northern nomadic or semi-nomadic tribes became too restless. While this did not stop foreign adventurism, it certainly marked limitations in the successes it could achieve, as can be seen from the net effect of the Ming campaign in Vietnam: in spite of early successes resulting in the incorporation of the region as a Chinese province, a series of decisive defeats during the Lam Son uprising brought Ming attempts to bring the region to heel more or less permanently to a close. By contrast, the Ming expeditions into Manchuria and Mongolia, with a goal to maintain the security of the nascent dynasty against a potential attack by Yuan sympathizers/Mongols, was completely successful in this aim, but neither attempted to achieve any more centralized political domination of the regions beyond the usual tributary relationships, and the former was not successful in completely pacifying the Wild Jurchen of the Amur.

EDIT: Not taiga. That's a bit too far northward for where the Chinese failed.
 
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In light of this, the major military threat to China was, once it reached these "natural borders", in fact its own military.

Undone by the dead hand of Hari Seldon!
 
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I think you should consider reading first is Why Nations Fail: The Origins of Power, Prosperity, and Poverty
WHY?! This sounds like a terrible book. So pessimistic. No chance whatsoever of a happy ending, from the title alone. Good grief. :(
 
The perception I'm trying to fight by being an "apologist" here is this:
The_Reception.JPG


The extreme caricature of decadent, backwards, unproductive China and its ignorant, regressive policies. The tribute system was inefficient and wasteful but it still enabled China to be the world's biggest trading nation for centuries. I was responding to a poster who was under the impression that the Chinese barely traded at all. See where I was going with that?
in fairness to the cartoonist, by that point in Qianlong's reign, his depiction of the Imperial Court is pretty accurate in spirit if not in detail.
 
in fairness to the cartoonist, by that point in Qianlong's reign, his depiction of the Imperial Court is pretty accurate in spirit if not in detail.
I'd just point out that other European artists were a lot more generous to Qianlong, and yet somehow the image of him as Jabba the Hutt has been the most widely-circulated one.
 
"between 1901 and 1920" - took me about 10 seconds to see that you're being extremely selective with your 'evidence'.

No. They didn't.
Frankly, I don't want to discuss anything with people who just invent statistics to back up their prejudices.

Do you agree that I did not 'invent statistics to back up their prejudices'? This is a simple question.

As for 'selective with evidence', you are going to have to show how that is in fact selective since my position was

That doesn't tell you want there wages were compared to European workers. Given that Europeans tended to immigrate to the US and stay in the cities to do industrial work implies that American wages were higher.

Are you claiming that European wages were higher than American wages prior to 1900? Because that is the only relevance for claiming my stats are selective.

As for why the numbers are that way, it is simple- about 60% of Italian immigrants came in that time period.
source said:
Between 1900 and 1915, 3 million Italians immigrated to America, which was the largest nationality of “new immigrants.” These immigrants, mostly artisans and peasants, represented all regions of Italy, but mainly came from the mezzogiorno, Southern Italy. Between 1876 and 1930, out of the 5 million immigrants who came to the United States, 4/5 were from the South, representing such regions as Calabria, Campania, Abruzzi, Molise, and Sicily.
 
The thing about the Chinese "not expanding because their neighbors were barbarians" is that this seems to raise some awkward questions about the actual extent of Chinese expansion. In many respects, the China we see today is not far removed from its greatest extents; it was not always so large. The Miao tribes are probably among the most noteworthy, as they were not fully suppressed until the Qing Dynasty in spite of being in what is today "China" in spite of their conquest in the 13th century. When a solid economic or defensive benefit could be found in decisively defeating an enemy and expanding the grasp of Chinese governance, it is amazing how little the notion of "barbarians" emerges as a counter-argument and how much it appears as an argument in favor; the fate of the Dzungar Khanate against the Qing and, long before that, the Han against the Xiongnu, the Sui against the Goguryeo, or the overall tremendous military dynamism of the Tang. The Silk Road was the heartbeat of trade with the west, and that shows in Chinese military adventurism westward through the Gansu Corridor into the Tarim Basin. By contrast, Taiwan or the Philippines are peripheral islands home to peripheral polities, and relatively peaceful and/or poor ones at that; conquering them would require a significant military investment for not much additional return, unless you're a (to borrow and tweak the statement used earlier by another in this thread) map-painter or head-counter. Rather, Taiwan only became important when it became a potential threat to the Qing as the base of a Ming remnant, and the domination of trade in the Southeast never called for much more than the establishment of a few fortified trade bases in the Philippines by the Song.

Geographically, though, it is noteworthy to see how China actually did grow - every single one of its borders continued to spread away from the original core lands around the Yellow River until it reached some geographic obstacle, rolling over almost every military obstacle in their path. In the East, obviously, this was the Pacific. In the North, these are the vast steppes as well as the Gobi Desert and Altay and Yanshan Mountains: regions of exceptionally low population densities, few valuable resources (until the modern era), and obdurate tribes who were not worth the military cost of extracting tribute. To the West, the Taklamakan Desert, and beyond it and its chain of peripheral oases that formed the north and south branches of the Silk Road, the Pamirs, the Tian Shan, and the Kunlun Mountains all pose even greater obstacles which the Tang learned in particular were nearly insurmountable when it came to projecting military force into Central Asia beyond. To the South, Chinese civilization overran the Yue tribes of the Yangtze in the time of the Qin and Han, and kept right on going until they reached the jungles of Indochina and the mountains of Dali and Dian Kingdoms in the Yunnan. This pattern does not strike me as that of a non-expansionist, complacent and self-centered polity. Even the Ming, that late dynasty to which this position has been most often attributed, embarked on military campaigns in Yunnan, Vietnam, and Manchuria, the former of which was most successful, as well as multiple punitive expeditions against the Mongols and Oirats.

That said, a decline in military opportunism once these borders had been reached may not solely be to some sort of belief in one's superiority. By the same sort of broad-tarring brush, it could just as easily be attributed to this simple question - when one, as a ruler, has attained a hegemonic domination over a tremendous part of the world and is surrounded only by petty fiefs that largely exist because they are not worth the cost of conquering, what is the greatest threat to one's power? Essentially, the greatest threats to China once it attained its far east hegemony became not external, but rather internal threats. In its greatest manifestation being civil war, such as that in the Warring States or Three Kingdoms periods, internal unrest was destroyed more dynasties than the northern barbarians. The Qin fell before the Han, who themselves fell to internal unrest in the Three Kingdoms before eventual reunification. Even the conquest of China by the so-called foreign dynasties (the Jin, Yuan, and Qing for examples) tended to occur in times of already-present internal weakness, rather than sparking internal weakness themselves (famously, the Qing conquest took advantage of the self-styled founder of the Shun dynasty, siding with Ming remnants to crush him at Shanhai Pass before defeating the remaining other pretenders in detail - they would never have made the attempt had Wu Sangui not abandoned the northern fortifications in order to stop Li Zicheng). In light of this, the major military threat to China was, once it reached these "natural borders", in fact its own military. Any ambitious general would have no lack of inspirations in Chinese history to seize power in any time of political weakness. Certainly, sending such ambitious generals to establish some distant "Commandery of the [Cardinal Direction]" was an option, but it was also an option that, as the Jin learned from Qiao Zong who founded the Western Shu, could backfire if said general came home with the glory of conquest and a powerful army loyal to him. It was much safer to pare the military back and occasionally organize a retaliatory strikes if a few of the bordering northern nomadic or semi-nomadic tribes became too restless. While this did not stop foreign adventurism, it certainly marked limitations in the successes it could achieve, as can be seen from the net effect of the Ming campaign in Vietnam: in spite of early successes resulting in the incorporation of the region as a Chinese province, a series of decisive defeats during the Lam Son uprising brought Ming attempts to bring the region to heel more or less permanently to a close. By contrast, the Ming expeditions into Manchuria and Mongolia, with a goal to maintain the security of the nascent dynasty against a potential attack by Yuan sympathizers/Mongols, was completely successful in this aim, but neither attempted to achieve any more centralized political domination of the regions beyond the usual tributary relationships, and the former was not successful in completely pacifying the Wild Jurchen of the Amur.

EDIT: Not taiga. That's a bit too far northward for where the Chinese failed.
Suffice to say, a better analysis could not have been better written. I salute you!
 
in fairness to the cartoonist, by that point in Qianlong's reign, his depiction of the Imperial Court is pretty accurate in spirit if not in detail.

Also to be fair, Gilray's depictions of British society are much much more scathing than his made-up image of China.
 
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"between 1901 and 1920" - took me about 10 seconds to see that you're being extremely selective with your 'evidence'.

I think you need to take a step back and look at the bigger picture here.

European migrants to the US did not necessarily wish to settle, it many cases, it was a case of going to America and making enough money to return to Europe as rich (or at least comfortable).

Hence the claim about Italian migrants returning home is probably true.
 
I think you need to take a step back and look at the bigger picture here.

European migrants to the US did not necessarily wish to settle, it many cases, it was a case of going to America and making enough money to return to Europe as rich (or at least comfortable).

Hence the claim about Italian migrants returning home is probably true.
Look, I already took a 'step back' from the whole conversation. Some people don't want to discuss, they just want to argue. It's quite simple - the statement made was that 'half of Italian immigrants returned to Italy' turns out the 'fact' is that this was true in a very specific, very narrow timeframe, but not generally true. I'm just just not interested in squabbling - so I'm not playing. :)