{Your wall of text has convinced me to vote for the red even thought it was my idea for quantity}]
{{Keep in mind that I'm stil tweaking the bonuses each Faction provides because of changes introduced in AoW, as well as custom NI (Roman and Aztec), which sadly is the price to be paid for updating all of this to 1.8. They will change a little, not drastically but will change nonetheless. Also I plan to call a Second Session after chapter 1 or 2, so I doubt that bonuses from whichever Faction wins will be there for very long}}
Senator Theophilus RhadenosSenator Domenico Colombo:
Thank you, Maximos, for clarifying the rules of the Senate. It is now obvious that the Blues cannot stand on the sidelines of this vote. If they abstain, the Whites, with their anti-military, anti-navy bonuses, will gain power. In addition, if Administrative Ideas pass, the Blues gain nothing, and they are left with the indignity of being the largest faction, but having no voice in near or future policy.
*Domenico raises his voice*
My proposal is the best of both worlds and both interests. By voting in Quantity, the Army is better prepared and we will be able to have more homegrown manpower in our armies, as opposed to filthy mercenaries like the ones the Pisans use. These are the pluses for the Reds, and as they are the proposees, they have a bigger share of the benefit. But the Blues gain too; they gain both the trust and gratitude of another faction leader who is less hostile than the White leader is, and they get larger forcelimits that they can use for galleys or trade ships. This is opposed to the White proposal, which has nothing that helps the Blue cause whatsoever. May I remind you that it is the Whites who are calling the Blues things like 'dirty Pisans', and 'near-heretics' and people 'doomed to hell'. Voting for their proposal would show weakness in the Blues!
*Domenico reminds his faction members that titles will go to those who show the most active support for the faction leader*
{{Lol}}Furthermore the Senator still have to explain to me his bizarre ramblings about "bonuses" and the use of "Mercenaries" that an Administrative reform would cause, I wonder how.
{{There is no need to argue. The debate between powergaming/metagaming and "true" role-playing is as old as the idea of a role-play itself. But what's IMHO the most important thing which people tend to forget is that the whole pointof role-play is to have fun. So let's focus on this, shall we? There's nothing wrong in using arguments based on effects the policies or ideas will have in the game - however, I have to agree with viola that if you're going to just say "let's take X idea because we'll have cheaper cores" defeates the purpose of the Senate. You can influence the game but as a Senators, characters played by you in the setting of "Imperium Sine Fine". If you want to talk only about what would be beneficial in game, than in fact we don't need Senate at all and instead can just vote as readers. Remember also that if I wanted good bonuses, I could give Imperium +200% manpower and -100% core creation cost as Roman Traditions - but I didn't. I'm more interested in a good story than just blobbing, you know Because of the Senate I don't have complete control over what's going to happen and I'm perfectly fine with this.((Ok, what are you doing?
You are supposed to roleplay, in-game stuff have nothing to do with roleplay, you cannot claim that the Whites are anti-military because of a bonus that your character cannot know it even exists and especially when the White faction leader is a half-militarist himself, and it is extremely gamey to use in-game bonuses to decide how to roleplay. If you want to play at "let's look at the bonuses and see what strategy is the most logic" then we might as well do away with the entire roleplay thing and just vote as readers.
In other words, looking at stats to decide how to roleplay is bad, it makes no sense in-character and defeats the entire point of roleplaying.))
[SIZE=+1]Senator Theophilus Rhadenos[/SIZE]{{Lol}}
[SIZE=+1]Senator Anastasios Salamis VI:[/SIZE]
Senator Theophilus, I would like to ask you something.
Do you consider the blue demes as your enemy? Even if we disagree with your faction's religious fanatism, I at least- and I'm sure that it is true for other members of the blue demes- do not oppose administrative reforms.
I want to know- do you see no value in trade, diplomacy and exploration? Do you see the blue demes as eternal enemies of the white demes?
Senator Theophilus Rhadenos
*Rhadenos, now quite clearly offended, answers to the Red leader*
The idea that the Whites wishes to weaken the Imperial Army or are, in any way whatsoever "anti-military", is pure and unfounded slander.
The White faction has always supported the army, it has always suggested the expansion of the military and will always support all plans to bring the Imperium to Its rightful place as the Universal Empire ordained by God to rule over Creation.
Those who claim that we stand against the Military deny an evident truth with the only objective of slandering what is the smallest faction in the Senate, and God only can know why they would do something like that as we are no threat to anyone. I urge all Senators to remember that we have not opposed, and are still not opposing, a military reform geared toward quantity but have merely chosen to obey the will of the Emperor for this moment and support an Expanded Administration, I don't see how this can turn us into enemies of the army. I also remind you that a Reformed Administration would indeed help our military and even our trade, wouldn't a superior administration reasonably help us in recruiting and organize an army? Wouldn't a better administration not make trade easier and less bureaucratic cumbersome? Wouldn't a Bureaucratic reform not give the lesser aristocracy of the Imperium, that is us all, a chance to prove their worth and give us a voice within the Imperial Bureaucracy? With all the benefits that working in the Administration would bring...
But instead of discussing the merits of an Administrative reform over a more direct reorganization of the Army many here just want to attack the Whites for things we have never even thought of committing!
In particular, the slander of Domenico Colombo must cease at once, the only thing he has done so far, beyond meekly submitting to the Blues' dominance and suddenly change his decisions on a whim, has been that of humiliating and attacking a faction that consider him an ally and would like to help him. I would have expected such an attitude from the Merchants, who are always striving for "unorthodox" policies, but from the leader of the Eagles these actions are utterly incomprehensible.
Colombo, I will say that only once: cease you slander and start debating like a civilized being, and not like a rabid dog. I know that such a thing can be hard for someone of Italian descend but the rules of the Senate must be respected. I have not attacked you or your faction, the Whites do not consider the Reds their enemies, in spite of all your attempts, and we still wish to discuss civilly if we should go for an Administrative reform or for a Military one. The goals of the Reds and the Whites are complementary, we wish a strong, internal defence against the enemy within and you wish a strong, external offence against the enemy without, I can't understand why the Reds would want to oppose a faction who will gladly support any military actions against the heathens.
Perhaps this has something to do with the fact that Colombo is a Merchant, but I'm sure that this is merely a coincidence.
Furthermore the Senator still have to explain to me his bizarre ramblings about "bonuses" and the use of "Mercenaries" that an Administrative reform would cause, I wonder how.
- Theophilus Rhadenos,
Metropolitan Bishop of Tiberias
((Ok, what are you doing?
You are supposed to roleplay, in-game stuff have nothing to do with roleplay, you cannot claim that the Whites are anti-military because of a bonus that your character cannot know it even exists and especially when the White faction leader is a half-militarist himself, and it is extremely gamey to use in-game bonuses to decide how to roleplay. If you want to play at "let's look at the bonuses and see what strategy is the most logic" then we might as well do away with the entire roleplay thing and just vote as readers.
In other words, looking at stats to decide how to roleplay is bad, it makes no sense in-character and defeats the entire point of roleplaying.))
[SIZE=+1]Senator Theophilus Rhadenos[/SIZE][SIZE=+1]Senator Anastasios Salamis VI:[/SIZE]
Ah, but you can clearly see that we in the blue demes aren't trying to push for exploration immediatly- in fact, our faction leader has clearly said, if I remember correctly, that we should wait for the reconquest of Aegyptus before starting the exploration. So it seems like the only thing you're basing your hate for the blue demes on are stereotypes- stereotypes that say that we're unreasonable greedy merchants. However, I may have mistaken the white demes for blind religious fanatics. Indeed, only some of you are that... But still a lot of you, it seems.
But exploration must come second or, at most, third. The Xenoi and the Sineans- and god knows who else- have surely been exploring for a long time.
We must not wait too long- or when we will finaly send our ships to distant shores, the valiant explorers will find only death and ruin caused by the Xenoi.
And thus, I would like to declare that if exploration won't be chosen by this Senate as the second or third reform that the Imperium does, I will start voting for it, and only it, until it is chosen- regardless of deals made by the blue demes faction leader.
{{When we finaly begin exploring, you will see why my character's pushing for it so hardly- mostly from RP point of view }}
((I agree, choosing a more favorable option when the opportunity presents itself is fine, but making it a rule at the cost of the narrative is quite beyond the pale.{{There is no need to argue. The debate between powergaming/metagaming and "true" role-playing is as old as the idea of a role-play itself. But what's IMHO the most important thing which people tend to forget is that the whole pointof role-play is to have fun. So let's focus on this, shall we? There's nothing wrong in using arguments based on effects the policies or ideas will have in the game - however, I have to agree with viola that if you're going to just say "let's take X idea because we'll have cheaper cores" defeates the purpose of the Senate. You can influence the game but as a Senators, characters played by you in the setting of "Imperium Sine Fine". If you want to talk only about what would be beneficial in game, than in fact we don't need Senate at all and instead can just vote as readers. Remember also that if I wanted good bonuses, I could give Imperium +200% manpower and -100% core creation cost as Roman Traditions - but I didn't. I'm more interested in a good story than just blobbing, you know Because of the Senate I don't have complete control over what's going to happen and I'm perfectly fine with this.
To sum it up - yes, you can use arguments that certain ideas or decisions would be beneficial in-game (because I'm going to actually play the game) but please do so in-character. That's why you wanted to become a Senator in the first place, right? }}
{Calm down there, m8. I want to have fun just as much as you, it's more that I would like the Imperium to still exist in the future.}
{In your tirade against me, you do bring up some good points, but they are points that aren't really about me. It's more of a problem with the un-fluid faction system and how the Senate works. The current factions, all of them, are jingoist, warmongers. Everyone is praising the upcoming war, and no one is talking about big missionary things or exploration. Yet, if anyone but the Reds get in power, the military suffers enormously compared to how it would be with the Reds in power. It's not like if the Whites win, the entire focus of the Imperium turns away from military, but that's how the factions are working.}
{In addition, I am RPing, and I have given in character reasons for turning to Quantity. If the Whites hadn't decided to pick a fight with me AFTER I had previously supported their idea group, I would have had no call for changing positions. It also makes sense that a Senator from all the way in Alexandria would need some time to sort out how the Imperial Administration works. On top of this, you accuse me of not RPing, but I am supporting something that is for the benefit of my faction!
Personally, I think the most out of character thing is the number of Blues who are still supporting Administrative, even after the Whites have been shitting on them for days. Especially considering that the Whites are so small, and that Administrative has nothing that they should be interested in. The rebellious Reds make more sense, I am somewhat of an outsider, and they are more inclined to agree with the Whites.
That's why my character's health is suffering, he's having to deal with all these contradictions, and he can't handle it!}
{I'd also like to remind you guys that my son (and sucessor) is of a somewhat.... different political persuasion than Domenico. I think you can guess what policies Christopher Columbus would support. We wouldn't want a certain faction getting even more power, now would we?}
{At any rate, this vote will be interesting. A lot of the Blues haven't voiced their support one way or another, it's still up in the air I think. Unless the Blues attempt to do Exploration at the last min.}
[SIZE=+1]Senator Anastasios Salamis VI:[/SIZE]
Ah, but you can clearly see that we in the blue demes aren't trying to push for exploration immediatly- in fact, our faction leader has clearly said, if I remember correctly, that we should wait for the reconquest of Aegyptus before starting the exploration. So it seems like the only thing you're basing your hate for the blue demes on are stereotypes- stereotypes that say that we're unreasonable greedy merchants. However, I may have mistaken the white demes for blind religious fanatics. Indeed, only some of you are that... But still a lot of you, it seems.
But exploration must come second or, at most, third. The Xenoi and the Sineans- and god knows who else- have surely been exploring for a long time.
We must not wait too long- or when we will finaly send our ships to distant shores, the valiant explorers will find only death and ruin caused by the Xenoi.
And thus, I would like to declare that if exploration won't be chosen by this Senate as the second or third reform that the Imperium does, I will start voting for it, and only it, until it is chosen- regardless of deals made by the blue demes faction leader.
{{When we finaly begin exploring, you will see why my character's pushing for it so hardly- mostly from RP point of view }}
{{As I said, I'm tweaking the Faction modifiers - I consider changing the whole "modifiers-have-to-balance-out" approach into something simpler or even just make it so that every Faction just gives bonuses with no negative modifiers. If you have some ideas please share them with me - the Factions were made for the Senators, no the other way around.{In your tirade against me, you do bring up some good points, but they are points that aren't really about me. It's more of a problem with the un-fluid faction system and how the Senate works. The current factions, all of them, are jingoist, warmongers. Everyone is praising the upcoming war, and no one is talking about big missionary things or exploration. Yet, if anyone but the Reds get in power, the military suffers enormously compared to how it would be with the Reds in power. It's not like if the Whites win, the entire focus of the Imperium turns away from military, but that's how the factions are working.}