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I hold on to my settling decisions (dejure) as in Britannia, it is both easy and dynamic. Crown laws would not be a good way of simulating it.
 
Second, a duchy level Senate?! That just seems way too weak and wrong. Yet it makes sense, simulating their current power status. We can skip the Prefects if we have to, but that then leaves another question: Who rules Odoacer´s and Theoderic´s lands in Italy, the Senate or a bunch of random vassals and the Senate restricted to Latium?

Considering we have to work within the constraints of Crusader Kings, I think this is the best option. The Roman counts in Italy would be vassal to the Roman Senate, which would have a Senatorial demesne in Latium. The rest would be Scirii/Thuringii.

EDIT: Leader could be Princeps Senatus. Consul/Praetorian Prefect could be a honorary title bestowed by the Princeps Senatus.
 
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Making the Senate a Republic wouldn't really simulate it correctly either, since it was never ruled by one man, it never even ruled any land as far as i know (although i only know about the Senate in the Republic though)
 
Making the Senate a Republic wouldn't really simulate it correctly either, since it was never ruled by one man, it never even ruled any land as far as i know (although i only know about the Senate in the Republic though)

The people who did rule it weren't elected for life, it didn't have vassals, etc. I can think up quite a few concerns, but we have to make do with the constraints imposed by CK2. I think we should include the Senate because it's one of those post-WRE quirks that stuck around, even if we have to model it in a imperfect way. Although it was pretty much powerless it is possible to think up scenarios, however unlikely, in which the Senatorial Aristocracy manages to gain the upper hand.
 
The people who did rule it weren't elected for life, it didn't have vassals, etc. I can think up quite a few concerns, but we have to make do with the constraints imposed by CK2. I think we should include the Senate because it's one of those post-WRE quirks that stuck around, even if we have to model it in a imperfect way. Although it was pretty much powerless it is possible to think up scenarios, however unlikely, in which the Senatorial Aristocracy manages to gain the upper hand.
I know for a fact, that Game of Thrones mod has a mechanism to allow yearly elections, and republic leader can be not re-elected. They also have a mechanism, which allows republican officials to vetoe wars. I, however, don't think that Senate in 480 is important enough to bother.
 
I know for a fact, that Game of Thrones mod has a mechanism to allow yearly elections, and republic leader can be not re-elected. They also have a mechanism, which allows republican officials to vetoe wars. I, however, don't think that Senate in 480 is important enough to bother.

Yes, the roman empire had fallen, so this should not be a main concern. When the mod is released and stable maybe we can take a look at it but for now it is really not essential (atleast not for me). In these times the senate would represent more flavour than anything else.
 
Are you saying that a Nomad can´t become a king or Emperor?! What about the Mongol Empire, Hunnic Empire, the Golden Horde, the Cumans? Those cannot be simulated properly as duchies. They have to be either kingdoms or Empires

A nomad cannot form any kind of title except, "muh tribe", which in CK II terms is a special dutchy. You don't see nomadic reindeer herders having kingdoms or empires. A nomadic faction doesn't possess land, they use it and then they move on. But those "angry mongols" you talk about, posessed land and to top it off, they aquired it in great quantities. Thus, they don't qualify as nomads. They are at least Nomadic-Stationary Hybrids.

To simulate their empires, you would just need the possibility of forming standard kingdoms and then make it possible to form titular/special titles that have special cb's for conquest. A special/titular title that has a very likely chance of triggering a succession crisis upon inheritance. To simulate the formation of said title, a character must have ambitious trait and must subjucate the entire de jure empire worth of random counties for that special title to be formable. From there on, Golden Horde will gain a new cb. "Subjucation", which targets kingdoms or dutchies to form that kingdom(like crusades) and when victorious, that kingdom becomes a vassal. An existing king will become a vassal if present. Some offical of Golden Horde becomes a vassal king if no king was present in subjucated area. This way will make these large areas conquerable in a lifetime and will result in much faster collapses aswell.

While I agree with your post for the most part, I can't agree with "Nomads didn't care about titles". They cared. Very strongly so. That's why you'll have Turkic and Khazar kagans and kaganbeks live in luxury and respect long after they lost all real power, or Timur Leng never calling himself "Khan", since this title belonged to Borjigin clan. Game-wise it just not fair to limit nomads to Duchy title - how can you simulate Göktürks' Kaganate without an Empire? And they are in the mod's timelapse.

That is why I made a clear distinction. Nomadic and Nomadic-Stationary Hybrid. A random steppe horse from the non-significant darker reaches will be a nomad. Your mentioned peoples should be Nomadic-Stationary Hybrids.
 
I agree with you about Nomad becoming Emperor thing. But why should Emperors migrate anyway? Look at the Huns or Mongols. When theyre Empires were established they didnt migrate they conquered. When Attila invaded Gallia his powerbase was still in Hungary. So why should they migrate?

Second what should the Senate be in 480? A Titular Kingdom? For an actuall Kingdom it would be to small so i think it should be a Republic with the Houses representing the influencial Families. That is what the Senate historical was a Republic (or Parlament but how would you simulate that?). And the Head could be a Consul or something like that.

Firstly: It should be an option if they loose much of their land, that´s all Im saying

Secondly: I agree, it should be a duchy under Odoacer, but should have the ability to go kingdom (if independent or something)

The people who did rule it weren't elected for life, it didn't have vassals, etc. I can think up quite a few concerns, but we have to make do with the constraints imposed by CK2. I think we should include the Senate because it's one of those post-WRE quirks that stuck around, even if we have to model it in a imperfect way. Although it was pretty much powerless it is possible to think up scenarios, however unlikely, in which the Senatorial Aristocracy manages to gain the upper hand.

I know for a fact, that Game of Thrones mod has a mechanism to allow yearly elections, and republic leader can be not re-elected. They also have a mechanism, which allows republican officials to vetoe wars. I, however, don't think that Senate in 480 is important enough to bother.

Yes, the roman empire had fallen, so this should not be a main concern. When the mod is released and stable maybe we can take a look at it but for now it is really not essential (atleast not for me). In these times the senate would represent more flavour than anything else.

I don´t know about the "you can´t get re-elected" thing, but I agree THAT WE HAVE TO INCLUDE THE SENATE IN THE FIRST RELEASE! It would just be so weird if Rome was held by Odoacer or some random vassal of his, not to mention non-historical. And the Republican Houses should represent the old Roman families
 
Considering we have to work within the constraints of Crusader Kings, I think this is the best option. The Roman counts in Italy would be vassal to the Roman Senate, which would have a Senatorial demesne in Latium. The rest would be Scirii/Thuringii.

EDIT: Leader could be Princeps Senatus. Consul/Praetorian Prefect could be a honorary title bestowed by the Princeps Senatus.

Currently that is the title of the head of the senate

Firstly: It should be an option if they loose much of their land, that´s all Im saying

Secondly: I agree, it should be a duchy under Odoacer, but should have the ability to go kingdom (if independent or something)







I don´t know about the "you can´t get re-elected" thing, but I agree THAT WE HAVE TO INCLUDE THE SENATE IN THE FIRST RELEASE! It would just be so weird if Rome was held by Odoacer or some random vassal of his, not to mention non-historical. And the Republican Houses should represent the old Roman families

Don't worry, the senate has been in for a while now
 
A nomad cannot form any kind of title except, "muh tribe", which in CK II terms is a special dutchy. You don't see nomadic reindeer herders having kingdoms or empires. A nomadic faction doesn't possess land, they use it and then they move on. But those "angry mongols" you talk about, posessed land and to top it off, they aquired it in great quantities. Thus, they don't qualify as nomads. They are at least Nomadic-Stationary Hybrids.

To simulate their empires, you would just need the possibility of forming standard kingdoms and then make it possible to form titular/special titles that have special cb's for conquest. A special/titular title that has a very likely chance of triggering a succession crisis upon inheritance. To simulate the formation of said title, a character must have ambitious trait and must subjucate the entire de jure empire worth of random counties for that special title to be formable. From there on, Golden Horde will gain a new cb. "Subjucation", which targets kingdoms or dutchies to form that kingdom(like crusades) and when victorious, that kingdom becomes a vassal. An existing king will become a vassal if present. Some offical of Golden Horde becomes a vassal king if no king was present in subjucated area. This way will make these large areas conquerable in a lifetime and will result in much faster collapses aswell.



That is why I made a clear distinction. Nomadic and Nomadic-Stationary Hybrid. A random steppe horse from the non-significant darker reaches will be a nomad. Your mentioned peoples should be Nomadic-Stationary Hybrids.
What's the point of this then? Small tribe won't have land enough to proclaim a kingdom anyway. The discussion about possession of land in nomadic cultures is just to big to have here, so "it's complicated"
 
Diadochi Kings has a similar mechanic for nomads. I think the Nomad-Hybrid-Sedentary mechanic is a good idea. The requirements for going from nomadic to the hybrid should include control of a duchy title, to represent their growth into a network of tribes. Since the hybrid setting would grant them access to a tribal kingdom, maybe that should be one of the requirements for transitioning to a sedentary lifestyle. Maybe the mechanic could also tie into levy size as an incentive for hordes to settle down instead pf migrating all the time?

EDIT: Just remembered tribal kingdoms aren't kingdoms. Darn.
 
The people who did rule it weren't elected for life, it didn't have vassals, etc. I can think up quite a few concerns, but we have to make do with the constraints imposed by CK2. I think we should include the Senate because it's one of those post-WRE quirks that stuck around, even if we have to model it in a imperfect way. Although it was pretty much powerless it is possible to think up scenarios, however unlikely, in which the Senatorial Aristocracy manages to gain the upper hand.

Agreed, even though CK2 basically doesn't allow a Senate like it historically was, you can still make the best out of it, so that those scenarios can happen
 
Isn't the senate at this stage a complete joke compared to what it once was?

The Senate was a largely ceremonial body during the time of the Empire but the fall led to a power vacuum that led to a slight increase in power and prestige in Odoacer's kingdom. Between the Fall of Rome and the War of Reconquest by Justinian the Senate's power was increasing but that turn of events dramatically changed their power and made it certain that the Pope would take over.
 
Is this a work in progress?

This is not a WIP. It is unrealesed and will first be in closed beta (check on the first page) and then be released for everybody to play with.
 
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