When the World Stopped Making Sense [ A 480 Migrational Period Mod]

[Chlodio]

I think "Byzantium" could be handled through them starting the game as "Eastern Roman Empire" and if they fail to reconquer enough provinces to reform the empire their name will be changed to "Byzantium" to reflect the empire being considered the empire of the greeks rather then the true roman state.

Greek Empire would reflect it and be actual name used by western world, Byzantium/Byzantine Empire is wrong in every way especially during 5th century.

I don't understand why anyone would ever call the Roman Empire the Byzantine Empire, fact they changed their focus from Latin to Greek is irrelevant, it was still based on text written in Latin. These Byzantinophiles are stubborn people who have been misguided, they have no logic, nothing to back to their silly claim that makes no sense, yet they refuse to see the truth.

 

[Mr. Capiatlist]

A good idea but the problem is that all of his sons where in theory kings and not dukes with one domain here and there. They controlled a certain area that they made into kingdoms. The kingdom should definitely be dissolved at death yes. The dejure system would in it self not at all fit the Merovingian Kings France. Have you done something to the dejure system Enlil?

Edit: this may be solved by petty kings (or something similar) or some decision to make the duchy into a kingdom. When the kingdom of the franks was reunited it was oftenly through murder and assasination or marriages.

My idea won't fix things 100%, maybe change tribal laws so you can revoke titles from non-family members with negative relations but not from family members at all. Then family members should become the majority. But even titles passing out of family would be better than blobs.

 

[loup99]

My idea won't fix things 100%, maybe change tribal laws so you can revoke titles from non-family members with negative relations but not from family members at all. Then family members should become the majority. But even titles passing out of family would be better than blobs.

One problem is also that all of these pagan, small kingdoms will all be allied and claimant on eachother and be a real nightmare for everyone else ingame.

 

[Matty2e]

I think "Byzantium" could be handled through them starting the game as "Eastern Roman Empire" and if they fail to reconquer enough provinces to reform the empire their name will be changed to "Byzantium" to reflect the empire being considered the empire of the greeks rather then the true roman state.

That could work, maybe there was perhaps the possibility to recreate the 'Western Roman Empire' based in Rome itself in parallel, they could either be unified into a whole 'Roman Empire' or as you say a smaller greek Byzantium could form beyond a certain point.

 

[Mr. Capiatlist]

One problem is also that all of these pagan, small kingdoms will all be allied and claimant on eachother and be a real nightmare for everyone else ingame.

The would only be allied if the are all ruled by family. We could leave it with just the dissolving Kingdom.

 

[loup99]

The would only be allied if the are all ruled by family. We could leave it with just the dissolving Kingdom.

True, but the system should if following history correctly make it so that the same dynasty rules upon the dissolved duchies that would be created by the death of the old ruler. To make it as similar as possible to how the frankish states where historically you would need to model it in the way that you said but with the heirs of the former king controlling the successor states that are created by the dissolvation of the kingdom. This may however not be forced to be modeled exactly in this way in the mod.

 

[Mr. Capiatlist]

True, but the system should if following history correctly make it so that the same dynasty rules upon the dissolved duchies that would be created by the death of the old ruler. To make it as similar as possible to how the frankish states where historically you would need to model it in the way that you said but with the heirs of the former king controlling the successor states that are created by the dissolvation of the kingdom. This may however not be forced to be modeled exactly in this way in the mod.

Okay, but you just pointed out a major flaw in that system: all the kingdoms would be allied by blood - an issue with the Karlings in the 867 start in vanilla. It also has the flaw in assuming there will always be multiple sons, which can also be a problem. At this point I would rather it split up per the GoT mod and if there are a bunch of sons - great, if not - still works better than a great big blob.

 

[loup99]

Okay, but you just pointed out a major flaw in that system: all the kingdoms would be allied by blood - an issue with the Karlings in the 867 start in vanilla. It also has the flaw in assuming there will always be multiple sons, which can also be a problem. At this point I would rather it split up per the GoT mod and if there are a bunch of sons - great, if not - still works better than a great big blob.

Well for the multiple sons it was very common to have at least three sons in the Frankish nobility at that point of time so it should not really be a big problem. And when all of the sons of a ruler where assasinated or dead (which was very rare since it only happened twice in the history of the Merovingian dynasty) where ,historically, the rare point of times where the realm stayed stable and was not shattered due to civil wars and claimants.

The AGOT-way of doing it is probably the best way though since certain feudal mechanics from base CK2 will anyway probably never model correctly model early medieval France before Charlemagne (and even then...) correctly.

Edit: And maybe the AGOT-way combined with mayor of palace events of seizing the kingdom in the 8th century would be fairly similar to history.

 

[Mr. Capiatlist]

Well for the multiple sons it was very common to have at least three sons in the Frankish nobility at that point of time so it should not really be a big problem. And when all of the sons of a ruler where assasinated or dead (which was very rare since it only happened twice in the history of the Merovingian dynasty) where ,historically, the rare point of times where the realm stayed stable and was not shattered due to civil wars and claimants.

The GOT-way of doing it is probably the best way though since certain feudal mechanics from base CK2 will anyway probably never model correctly model early medieval France before Charlemagne (and even then...) correctly.

Edit: And maybe the GOT-way combined with mayor of palace events of seizing the kingdom in the 8th century would be fairly historical.

Just because sons were historically common doesn't mean they will be in the game, where I've seen many a rather stable gavelkind kingdom.

 

[loup99]

Just because sons were historically common doesn't mean they will be in the game, where I've seen many a rather stable gavelkind kingdom.

True and therefor the AGOT-way is probably the best. Are the Karlings in 867 gavelkind?

And all of these are only speculations on if the Franks become kings of France! If they do not things are entierly different... Just an example of :"When the World Stopped Making Sense". I'm fascinated by all of the possibilities of this mod!

 

[Mr. Capiatlist]

True and therefor the AGOT-way is probably the best. Are the Karlings in 867 gavelkind?

And all of these are only speculations on if the Franks become kings of France! If they do not things are entierly different... Just an example of :"When the World Stopped Making Sense". I'm fascinated by all of the possibilties of this mod!

Kingdoms will need a lot of culture-based names. France, Lombardia, and England are just a few examples of countries with names based on Germanic peoples who might not win in this history.

 

[Enlil]

Good, do you have any events around Clovis and the romano-gauls and his baptem? Also have you made any province changes? What are the conditions for the Franks and the Frankish melting pot?

Edit: This mod seems to be doing something similar as you. Maybe you could use some of its features?

There is a Clovis baptism, that's why I killed him.

Honestly, I like that it uses the SWMH map, though it currently lacks India (as they have to completely re-draw the map). I'm a more provinces kind of guy, but I also have a really good computer...

But with my map you have the Hepthalites and Gupta Empire

Might be a hit to performance for not as good computers as yours, since this mod will add a lot of other things as well. I'm also not sure but I think that mod was only covering a 480-ish to 867 period. Anywise I think it is a good resource to use for other mods and I suggested about this in the other mods thread too.

This mod is 480-1453

I understand.

It would be interesting to build a converter to take it back to original CKII so you can finish the 867-1453 section.

See above

Perhaps tribal titles should use the King Beyond the Wall method from the GoT mod. The Kingdom dissolves after the King dies and must be reforged by his successors. That would prevent the massive blobbing that would likely ruin this style game.

Looks neat

That could work, maybe there was perhaps the possibility to recreate the 'Western Roman Empire' based in Rome itself in parallel, they could either be unified into a whole 'Roman Empire' or as you say a smaller greek Byzantium could form beyond a certain point.

You can create a western empire

True and therefor the AGOT-way is probably the best. Are the Karlings in 867 gavelkind?

And all of these are only speculations on if the Franks become kings of France! If they do not things are entierly different... Just an example of :"When the World Stopped Making Sense". I'm fascinated by all of the possibilties of this mod!

The butterfly effect is incredible

 

[Chef Boyardee]

Holy shit. This is the mod (the game???) I've been wanting forever. Sending you my good will! Good luck!!! Can't wait to play this!

 

[Enlil]

Holy shit. This is the mod (the game???) I've been wanting forever. Sending you my good will! Good luck!!! Can't wait to play this!

Thank you for the support!

 

[mike the knight]

What have you done with mercenaries tied with feudal levies and such?

 

[alxeu]

Can't wait for beta. After all, I am still considered to be on the list for beta testing, right?

 

[Enlil]

Can't wait for beta. After all, I am still considered to be on the list for beta testing, right?

Yeah

Also, England will keep its original Dejure map. The Saxons have almost taken over, and I'd prefer that to old Roman regions.

 

[RWexler]

WOW Thats really impressive!!!
Do you already know when you want to release it?
I'd volunteer for testing it aswell!

 

[Joemit]

I've got an idea for the Roman Army. You could have provincial governors unable to raise levies and each legion as a mercenary company in service of the Empire, with each one depending on the territories you hold. So if you hold, say, Italia, you have the Italian legions and if you hold Egypt you have the Egyptian legions. Then, if the east loses enough territory you could give them the decision to Create the Theme System, which disbands all the legions and gives provincial governors the ability to raise levies. To simulate army usurpations you could give them the "Usurp" casus belli, similar to how only the Roman Empire has the Imperial Reconquest CB.

 

[Enlil]

I've got an idea for the Roman Army. You could have provincial governors unable to raise levies and each legion as a mercenary company in service of the Empire, with each one depending on the territories you hold. So if you hold, say, Italia, you have the Italian legions and if you hold Egypt you have the Egyptian legions. Then, if the east loses enough territory you could give them the decision to Create the Theme System, which disbands all the legions and gives provincial governors the ability to raise levies. To simulate army usurpations you could give them the "Usurp" casus belli, similar to how only the Roman Empire has the Imperial Reconquest CB.

That sounds awesome, but I don't know how to do that.