Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations – Dev diary 6: Improved Diplomacy

[winsingtonIII]

I believe some of that, but I think choice is King. Let the player decide to select "hard ai" hidden deep in the game, so that the casuals never know how easy they have it. Satisfy the I want a non cheating, adult level, challenge crowd with a tougher, smarter, more creative ai and yet dont scare off the hate to think casual crowd, who wont be bothered to look at the other options to begin with.

With a decent, even average, computer nowadays, Im sure the game speed wont go down much at all (again dont cater to the lowest common denominator!).

This doesn't make any sense. You want them to pour money into developing a better AI, only to hide it so a casual player won't know about it?

Why would you ever make a major, game-changing feature and then hide it from most of your player base? Why would you hide a gameplay feature at all?

 

[AurochsAway]

I believe some of that, but I think choice is King. Let the player decide to select "hard ai" hidden deep in the game, so that the casuals never know how easy they have it. Satisfy the I want a non cheating, adult level, challenge crowd with a tougher, smarter, more creative ai and yet dont scare off the hate to think casual crowd, who wont be bothered to look at the other options to begin with.

With a decent, even average, computer nowadays, Im sure the game speed wont go down much at all (again dont cater to the lowest common denominator!).

Many mods currently significantly slow the game down. Presumably more complicated AI would have a similar effect.

 

[LibertyComrade]

I believe some of that, but I think choice is King. Let the player decide to select "hard ai" hidden deep in the game, so that the casuals never know how easy they have it. Satisfy the I want a non cheating, adult level, challenge crowd with a tougher, smarter, more creative ai and yet dont scare off the hate to think casual crowd, who wont be bothered to look at the other options to begin with.

With a decent, even average, computer nowadays, Im sure the game speed wont go down much at all (again dont cater to the lowest common denominator!).

Spoken like someone that has never even been remotely associated with software development.

 

[thedarkclown85]

This sounds insanely awesome, especially the part about trade CBs and rival power projection! Up untill this point I was kinda meh about this expansion, but those two new features will ensure that i but it on day 1 if not preorder it Really nice to see u make some cool diplomatic changes that will be awesome to use in mp games!

 

[Wizzington]

Many mods currently significantly slow the game down. Presumably more complicated AI would have a similar effect.

In some cases yes, in other cases no. It all depends on how often calculations have to be made, how much iteration is required, and how much it calls on heavy functions like pathfinding and distance calcs (and even then, it can be mitigated with cacheing). It is of course a limiting factor, but the biggest problem in making an 'adult level, tougher, smarter, creative ai' is actually writing said AI. You want a 'creative' AI? How exactly do you define creative? The AI cannot come up with strategies of its own, those strategies have to be coded into it and then tested, tweaked, and re-written as they inevitably fail to take any of a thousand different situations into account.

Something people fail to understand about AI is that while the AI can make a million calculations a second, a lot of the things you take for granted as a human is not available to a computer: Intuition, imagination, improvisation. A computer has none of that. It can only work with the data it's given, it cannot infer where data is missing, and while this may not sound like that big a limitation trust me when I say that it is.

For example, let's say you're France and you're gonna invade Spain. A human can look at the ledger, see that Spain has 100k troops, that they're at war with England, and that they've recently lost a lot of transports and infer that a significant part of the Spanish army is probably stuck outside of Iberia. A computer either has to be given some form of algorithm to calculate the expected number of troops in Spain (which would quickly grow very complex) or simply cheat, peer through the fog of war, and get a number to work with. In short, for something that any human familiar with the game can do in two seconds, you either have to put down a huge amount of work or let the AI 'cheat'.

Now with that said, there are some rather nasty army AI bugs in the current version that are getting sorted out next patch, and as usual any big patch will contain a bunch of incremental improvements to the AI.

 

[Umega]

Something people fail to understand about AI is that while the AI can make a million calculations a second, a lot of the things you take for granted as a human is not available to a computer: Intuition, imagination, improvisation. A computer has none of that. It can only work with the data it's given, it cannot infer where data is missing, and while this may not sound like that big a limitation trust me when I say that it is.

Reminds me of something a heard in a technology documentary: Robots will never take over the world, because we write thier coding, we tell them exactly what they do and they can't think on thier own without human input.

On topic, looking forward to WoN, definitely turning out much better than CoP!

 

[Dr. Dan]

In some cases yes, in other cases no. It all depends on how often calculations have to be made, how much iteration is required, and how much it calls on heavy functions like pathfinding and distance calcs (and even then, it can be mitigated with cacheing). It is of course a limiting factor, but the biggest problem in making an 'adult level, tougher, smarter, creative ai' is actually writing said AI. You want a 'creative' AI? How exactly do you define creative? The AI cannot come up with strategies of its own, those strategies have to be coded into it and then tested, tweaked, and re-written as they inevitably fail to take any of a thousand different situations into account.

Something people fail to understand about AI is that while the AI can make a million calculations a second, a lot of the things you take for granted as a human is not available to a computer: Intuition, imagination, improvisation. A computer has none of that. It can only work with the data it's given, it cannot infer where data is missing, and while this may not sound like that big a limitation trust me when I say that it is.

For example, let's say you're France and you're gonna invade Spain. A human can look at the ledger, see that Spain has 100k troops, that they're at war with England, and that they've recently lost a lot of transports and infer that a significant part of the Spanish army is probably stuck outside of Iberia. A computer either has to be given some form of algorithm to calculate the expected number of troops in Spain (which would quickly grow very complex) or simply cheat, peer through the fog of war, and get a number to work with. In short, for something that any human familiar with the game can do in two seconds, you either have to put down a huge amount of work or let the AI 'cheat'.

Now with that said, there are some rather nasty army AI bugs in the current version that are getting sorted out next patch, and as usual any big patch will contain a bunch of incremental improvements to the AI.

Plus the whole self-awareness thing you have to worry about...

 

[LibertyComrade]

Plus the whole self-awareness thing you have to worry about...

I'd love for the AI to figure out how to deal with scorched earth properly...but I'm not sure it's worth the rise of SkyNet.

 

[Dr. Dan]

I'd love for the AI to figure out how to deal with scorched earth properly...but I'm not sure it's worth the rise of SkyNet.

It's worth as long as it's a problem my children have to deal with and not me. Otherwise it'd cut into my gaming time too much.

 

[krisslanza]

Reminds me of something a heard in a technology documentary: Robots will never take over the world, because we write thier coding, we tell them exactly what they do and they can't think on thier own without human input.

On topic, looking forward to WoN, definitely turning out much better than CoP!

Well, as it stands now, yeah robots could never take over the world as you'd imagine... now, if someone could actually make self-learning AI (or well, a real artifical intelligence)... then we should be worried. But so long as we're basically working with AI as we understand now, the only way robots are taking over the world, is if someone programs it to do that.

Actually reminds me that a big breakthrough in robotics was getting a robotic arm to throw a ball. It seems innate and simplistic to us... but its actually some pretty insane calculations for a computer to understand it.

On topic... WoN does look pretty good. I was thinking of a Recettear-themed faction, and well, this mod seems like a good way to start really looking at it...

 

[Fishman786]

People have been sceptical about this expansion, but I actually like it. Some new, universal mechanics like old-fashioned EUIII expansions had, rather than the 'special gimmick for religion X' stuff that CK2 has had the whole time.

 

[Dr. Dan]

Well, as it stands now, yeah robots could never take over the world as you'd imagine... now, if someone could actually make self-learning AI (or well, a real artifical intelligence)... then we should be worried. But so long as we're basically working with AI as we understand now, the only way robots are taking over the world, is if someone programs it to do that.

Actually reminds me that a big breakthrough in robotics was getting a robotic arm to throw a ball. It seems innate and simplistic to us... but its actually some pretty insane calculations for a computer to understand it.

On topic... WoN does look pretty good. I was thinking of a Recettear-themed faction, and well, this mod seems like a good way to start really looking at it...

This guy is an AI trying to trick you, fyi. (Ok, I'm done now.)

 

[InnocentIII]

For example, let's say you're France and you're gonna invade Spain. A human can look at the ledger, see that Spain has 100k troops, that they're at war with England, and that they've recently lost a lot of transports and infer that a significant part of the Spanish army is probably stuck outside of Iberia. A computer either has to be given some form of algorithm to calculate the expected number of troops in Spain (which would quickly grow very complex) or simply cheat, peer through the fog of war, and get a number to work with. In short, for something that any human familiar with the game can do in two seconds, you either have to put down a huge amount of work or let the AI 'cheat'.

I much prefer a better AI that cheats to a worse one which is pure. Especially in this situation. You tell me how we know precisely how many troops everyone has, and I'll tell you how the AI knows how many troops are in Iberia. AQlong the same lines, I'd consider giving the AI cheap/free, instant, temporary (call them rented) Civ-like transports when fighting overseas. Too often is seems that an ocean is annoying to me but any channel is huge hurdle to the AI.

It might not be feasible (if it implies coding two versions of the AI), but giving the player the option to give the AI cheats to make it act smarter looks good to me (as opposed to extra gold/MP/troops). Cheating drives some people crazy, I know. I quit playing CK2 altogether when my rebel enemy pulled an army out of his ass mid battle. Any wholly illegitimate move can feel like playing D&D with a GM who randomly kills you then shouts "I win!" Good job, dude, you've created a real challenge, you should be proud of yourself. But if the AI opponent does reasonably well, and feels legitimate, I personally don't care how he was created.

 

[Lennart Stek]

Fantastic!!! Fantastic!!!! I'm so happy i stopped with ironman mode as mods wasn't possible. The game is so much more fun without wasteland!!

 

[Wizzington]

I much prefer a better AI that cheats to a worse one which is pure. Especially in this situation. You tell me how we know precisely how many troops everyone has, and I'll tell you how the AI knows how many troops are in Iberia. AQlong the same lines, I'd consider giving the AI cheap/free, instant, temporary (call them rented) Civ-like transports when fighting overseas. Too often is seems that an ocean is annoying to me but any channel is huge hurdle to the AI.

It might not be feasible (if it implies coding two versions of the AI), but giving the player the option to give the AI cheats to make it act smarter looks good to me (as opposed to extra gold/MP/troops). Cheating drives some people crazy, I know. I quit playing CK2 altogether when my rebel enemy pulled an army out of his ass mid battle. Any wholly illegitimate move can feel like playing D&D with a GM who randomly kills you then shouts "I win!" Good job, dude, you've created a real challenge, you should be proud of yourself. But if the AI opponent does reasonably well, and feels legitimate, I personally don't care how he was created.

As a general rule of thumb, players aren't actually upset by AI cheating but rather noticing that the AI is cheating.

 

[PropellerScar]

Looks awesome!

One small nit-pick: judging from the screenshot, it seems like the +Diplomatic Relations is truncated in the diplomacy screen but rounded up in the top bar (unless that +36 in the bar is power projection like some have guessed, but I don't think a dove would represent such a forceful value).

 

[Stategem161803]

Sorry if someone already answered this, but is permanent trade power transfer through war still a thing?

 

[LibertyComrade]

@Wiz: Could we get any hint at how long the effects of these new trade and diplomatic related treaty demands (trade power, fleet basing, and military access) last? Is it just until the truce expires?

 

[I_AM_King_Midas]

Guys, I think we are getting close to release. I would not be surprised if next week inside of the DD they announced the release date while talking about all of the free stuff.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

As a general rule of thumb, players aren't actually upset by AI cheating but rather noticing that the AI is cheating.

It's pretty fun to screw up AI sieges by pathing towards them from far away with big stacks. It falls all over itself trying to react to the new threat that is nowhere near it and I get less WE.

Compared to the UI issues and frustrations over "lol you have no allies because they still refuse calls you never made" or "no you can't colonize that province next to your CN because it is next to another CN of yours that is coastal but isn't coastal itself" or "yes we'll join the war...PSYCHE" the AI doesn't get much attention on the forum. It gets some, yes, but when you compare it to PU threads, coalitions threads, even fabricate claim % threads it's just not that commonly discussed. It's not really a problem in the game per se', even though improvements to it are greatly appreciated.