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This thread is for discussing Pontic steppes/Crimea(not the coldwar 2.0 :ninja, Khazaria, Volga-Bulgaria, Perm etc.
Work has begun on the above mentioned, with Khazaria and Pontic steppes being furtherst along in development.
WIP de jure kingdoms of Khazaria and Crimea: Outdated, for more recent ones see here
It's great to hear that you've started the work on these regions Aasmul. I'm looking forward to when you have some province borders to show us all. Do you have adequate maps for the time period? As far as i know Northern Crimea and the Region around modern Odessa, Mikolayiv and Dnipropetrovsk is very sparse in actual settlements for the CK2 period, so if you need to discuss the setup with someone i'm all ears
I hope you guys can make more kingdoms and even empires in the Steppes. De Jure Khazaria seems a bit too big if you ask me (seems to be the size of an empire). It would also be cool if the Crimea could be divided into two kingdoms, as it also seems a little bit large. Like the Crimean Kingdom and the Bosporan Kingdom (perhaps you can make it so that you can't use both titles). Would also be neat as well if Crimean Goths could be added as ethnicity in certain parts of the Crimean Peninsula, as they were around for a long time, up to around the 16th century I believe. Playing as Orthodox Germanics in the east would be really interesting.
Will there be Crimean Goths? (Even though my estimate is that they'd occupy one or two provinces at best, if that, and probably a few holdings more accurately)
Also, I have an Udmurt name list I made ages ago you guys might find useful if you ever consider adding them.
I hope you guys can make more kingdoms and even empires in the Steppes. De Jure Khazaria seems a bit too big if you ask me (seems to be the size of an empire). It would also be cool if the Crimea could be divided into two kingdoms, as it also seems a little bit large. Like the Crimean Kingdom and the Bosporan Kingdom (perhaps you can make it so that you can't use both titles). Would also be neat as well if Crimean Goths could be added as ethnicity in certain parts of the Crimean Peninsula, as they were around for a long time, up to around the 16th century I believe. Playing as Orthodox Germanics in the east would be really interesting.
There is no Bosphoran Kingdom title for the CK2 period, so that would be anachronistic. The size of the Kingdom of Krimea seems fine to me. Khazaria on the hand could use a split if an appropriate title could be found. If not then leave it be as it is.
I am excited to actually see Crimean Goths though.
Yes, the Goths should be present and should have some kind of bonus to resilience- they lasted so long for a reason and we don't want them disappearing into the neighboring cultures 10 years in. Hundreds of other cultures exist or recently existed in the area, everything from Black Abkhazians to Assyrians- at least a few of the most interesting or well documented ones should make an appearance. The Steppes should also see more religious mixture; I believe that Khazarian Judaism should have a few more provinces, for one, and some polities followed everything from Buddhism to Mandaeism- they shouldn't be left out.
There're very nice natural borders in the steppe: Danube, Dniester, Don, Volga-Itil. (And to a lesser extent not applicable to kingdoms: Buh, Dnieper, Yaik-Ural.) Separation into khanates around these frontiers could be observed both shortly after game start - Hungarians/Pechenegs west of Don, Khazars in-between, Cumans east of Volga - and after Mongol collapse - with Crimean, Astrakhan khanates and Nogai Horde occupying respective areas.
The big problem for this model is of course that huge thing north of Caucasus. I've never found any justification for the huge Alania existing in the borders it can be seen in vanilla or in SWMH. Maybe you could correct me, but the way I could gather, Alania was merely a confederation of peoples of North Caucasus. Namely, Avars of Sarir, Nakhs of Simsir/Dzurdzuketia, Alans, Kasogs.
Rearranging Alania that way opens up a way for proper kingdom of Khazaria placement. Let's start with Sarkel. Sarkel was a Khazar fortress guarding the Don-Volga portage. Despite being on Don's western side it was effectively Khazarian exclave. See the problem with naming the duchy of Sarkel "Sarkel"? Thus it seems appropriate to me to give the freed territory from Alania to Sarkel, and rename the original duchy Sarkel. I couldn't come up with a better name than Donets though. At least it's an appropriately steppe name.
In regard to duchy of Itil, effectively most of it used to be on the river's western side. However due to the way Sarai is placed etc, all right, let's cover some eastern bank too. Not too much though. And then there's an issue of my pet peeve - Semender. Semender was expressly mentioned as one of Sviatoslav's targets during his Khazarian adventure, and a lot of Jewish sites mention it as one of the cities likely to have been ruled by Khazar Jewry. Therefore I believe that's enough justification to move it back to Khazaria and duchy of Itil.
The remainder of eastern Itil can be arranged into duchy of Yaik, given to Cumania.
Semender is reduced to let Derbent border Sarir
Technically, Asov should probably belong to Khazaria too. That way you'll get nice and balanced Crimea, Khazaria, Cumania (Cumania being split into actual Cumania to the north of the Caspian Sea and the land of Oguzes to its east with RoI map expansion - even more balance!).
Alternatively I can argue for gameplay purposes of rearranging Syrt into Khazaria in a way that would give it border with Vladimir (and keep Asov in Crimea for balance). I think you can easily see the reasoning behind - let Khazars or Sarai/Astrakhan khans meddle with Vladimir, or even Severshina if you close the borders there.
It's great to hear that you've started the work on these regions Aasmul. I'm looking forward to when you have some province borders to show us all. Do you have adequate maps for the time period? As far as i know Northern Crimea and the Region around modern Odessa, Mikolayiv and Dnipropetrovsk is very sparse in actual settlements for the CK2 period, so if you need to discuss the setup with someone i'm all ears
Maps is a bit tricky, Elvain had a few of Volga-Bulgaria and Khazaria that I have gotten good use of and I managed to find a few myself buts a bit on the lean side what is available(have tried also plotting in aproximate locations of Turkic cities/forts not found on maps but its slow work).
Settlement in general was a nightmare in some places, especially in the south, Lukomorye took forever finding something usefull. Even had to add a couple of 1550-1700 forts as unbuild settlement in some provinces to have enough to fill the potential building slots :glare:.
I took a little brake from mapping the last two weeks to play around with some coa drawing:ninja:. But I have gotten the kingdoms of Khazaria and Pontic steppes(Desht-i-Kipchak/Etelköz/Qirim/Krym etc) almost drawn and I added a little Karatatyak/Podonye duchy in Volga bulgaria. Added some WIP screenies to the OP.
Will there be Crimean Goths? (Even though my estimate is that they'd occupy one or two provinces at best, if that, and probably a few holdings more accurately)
I hope you guys can make more kingdoms and even empires in the Steppes. De Jure Khazaria seems a bit too big if you ask me (seems to be the size of an empire). It would also be cool if the Crimea could be divided into two kingdoms, as it also seems a little bit large. Like the Crimean Kingdom and the Bosporan Kingdom (perhaps you can make it so that you can't use both titles). Would also be neat as well if Crimean Goths could be added as ethnicity in certain parts of the Crimean Peninsula, as they were around for a long time, up to around the 16th century I believe. Playing as Orthodox Germanics in the east would be really interesting.
Crimean Goths will defiantly be in^^ Question is if the best wouldn't be to make them in the byzzie group? if they are added to the north Germanic group they won't last very long :unsure:
Don't worry Khazaria will be a lot smaller(and a lot different). Currently planning to have it just 3 duchies, one of Itil, one of Sarai and one of Alania. Itil and Sarai should equal the expanse of the territory held directly by Khazarian crown.
for Empires I think having a de jure empire of Khazaria for ToG date spanning Khazaria/Pontic steepes/Volgabulgaria could work, don't know apart from that empire wise.
Also, I have an Udmurt name list I made ages ago you guys might find useful if you ever consider adding them.
Crimean Goths will defiantly be in^^ Question is if the best wouldn't be to make them in the byzzie group? if they are added to the north Germanic group they won't last very long :unsure:
Making them part of the Byzantine culture group wouldn't be unreasonable, I think given that for mos of CKII's timeframe they were pretty much part of the byzantinized Crimean world.
Nice screenies Aasmul. One tiny nitpick though. Seeing as it is related to stuff north of the Caucasus. Shouldn't the Duchy of Derbent be moved from the Kingdom of Georgia into the Kingdom of Khazaria or Daylam? There is some historical connection between Alania and Georgia but i have never found any sources to indicate that the Georgians showed the least bit of interest in Derbent or even controlled the region.
And it sounds like a great idea to add the Goths to the Byzantine group. According to what i know of the region they had been ruled from Constantinople for centuries and were heavily Byzantinized by the 1066 at the latest.
ETA: And it is so nice to not have Alania stretch all the way to the Caspian Sea anymore. It was driving me crazy
And how many provinces does the Chersonessos duchy have? According to what i've read it's only those provinces that can come under consideration for being turned into Gothic provinces.
WIP screenshots a few hours earlier would've saved me so much time painting those borders. :rofl:
That's one sweet looking Khazaria.
* In this layout, however, I'm even more willing to argue for Tmutarakan being de jure Khazarian. There's awesome steppe-ish name for it too - Tamatarkha.
* Okey. This makes for an interesting layout of Sarkel. Let's say Khazars hold only that one county in 867 and struggle to keep it from Pechenges/Magyars of Crimea. Fun! /approve
* Russian names in the steppe frustrate a bit - looking out of place. The three regions are all situated on rivers: Bug, Dniepr, Donets. That way there's some consistency in the naming. Alternatively, Turkish names could be used instead: Aksu (Bug), Ozu (Dnepr), Donets (? not sure of a fitting alternative, although the name is allegedly of nomad origin). Crimea, being a Mongol/Tatar name itself and populated by Turkics throughout the time frame, begs for Turkish/Mongol naming. Qirim?
* Still not sure about Abkhazian association with Kasogs. Any particular reasons behind it? From memory, they were troublesome neighbors and gave headache to Jigeti.
There're very nice natural borders in the steppe: Danube, Dniester, Don, Volga-Itil. (And to a lesser extent not applicable to kingdoms: Buh, Dnieper, Yaik-Ural.) Separation into khanates around these frontiers could be observed both shortly after game start - Hungarians/Pechenegs west of Don, Khazars in-between, Cumans east of Volga - and after Mongol collapse - with Crimean, Astrakhan khanates and Nogai Horde occupying respective areas.
The big problem for this model is of course that huge thing north of Caucasus. I've never found any justification for the huge Alania existing in the borders it can be seen in vanilla or in SWMH. Maybe you could correct me, but the way I could gather, Alania was merely a confederation of peoples of North Caucasus. Namely, Avars of Sarir, Nakhs of Simsir/Dzurdzuketia, Alans, Kasogs.
pretty much the same I found(I actually only began looking into the scope after I came across the note you made in your mod thread:ninja: ), Alania shouldn't be very big. In the WIP I made them have the Alanian steeps and Simsir. Yegorlyk is a bit of a headache what to do with though, wasn't core Khazaria either as far as I have found. I have given the territory to the Sarai duchy but don't, know if it couldn't aswell go to the Alans:unsure:
Rearranging Alania that way opens up a way for proper kingdom of Khazaria placement. Let's start with Sarkel. Sarkel was a Khazar fortress guarding the Don-Volga portage. Despite being on Don's western side it was effectively Khazarian exclave. See the problem with naming the duchy of Sarkel "Sarkel"? Thus it seems appropriate to me to give the freed territory from Alania to Sarkel, and rename the original duchy Sarkel. I couldn't come up with a better name than Donets though. At least it's an appropriately steppe name.
Yes its a bit messy to untangle^^. In the WIP Don portage has been used to make new Sarai and the Sarai has been used province for Old Sarai while, Sarkel is a three province duchy in the Pontic steeps. I think sarkel makes more sense outside Khazaria as you say it was very much an exclave.
The remainder of eastern Itil can be arranged into duchy of Yaik, given to Cumania.
In regard to duchy of Itil, effectively most of it used to be on the river's western side. However due to the way Sarai is placed etc, all right, let's cover some eastern bank too. Not too much though. And then there's an issue of my pet peeve - Semender. Semender was expressly mentioned as one of Sviatoslav's targets during his Khazarian adventure, and a lot of Jewish sites mention it as one of the cities likely to have been ruled by Khazar Jewry. Therefore I believe that's enough justification to move it back to Khazaria and duchy of Itil.
Agree fully. A related thing I have been pondering a bit, do you think it would make sense adding Balanjar or Astrakhan as a province? Astrakhan in particular could be usefull for buffing up Itil a bit.
Technically, Asov should probably belong to Khazaria too. That way you'll get nice and balanced Crimea, Khazaria, Cumania (Cumania being split into actual Cumania to the north of the Caspian Sea and the land of Oguzes to its east with RoI map expansion - even more balance!).
Tmutarakan ate the Azov duchy in the WIP^^, I couldn't find much substantial on Khazaria developing the area I think it makes more sense having them focused towards the Pontic steeps.
Yes will be nice RoI will do a lot of good for the steeps, instead of them just being a drear backwater. In SWMH we have to draw the projection extension first before we can add more though, and we won't be expanding as much as vanilla, but should still allow for a lot of steeps fun when its done:happy:
Nice screenies Aasmul. One tiny nitpick though. Seeing as it is related to stuff north of the Caucasus. Shouldn't the Duchy of Derbent be moved from the Kingdom of Georgia into the Kingdom of Khazaria or Daylam? There is some historical connection between Alania and Georgia but i have never found any sources to indicate that the Georgians showed the least bit of interest in Derbent or even controlled the region.
Thanks^^ I think Daylam would be the best bet of the two, Khazaria had lost its southern most territory long before ToG, but Persia is Elvain's territory.
And it sounds like a great idea to add the Goths to the Byzantine group. According to what i know of the region they had been ruled from Constantinople for centuries and were heavily Byzantinized by the 1066 at the latest.
ETA: And it is so nice to not have Alania stretch all the way to the Caspian Sea anymore. It was driving me crazy
And how many provinces does the Chersonessos duchy have? According to what i've read it's only those provinces that can come under consideration for being turned into Gothic provinces.
Chersons hasn't actually been edited yet, only drawn the mountain range in as border to Qirim. So far there has been added zero new provinces for Khazaria and Pontic steeps, its all been reusage.
That's one sweet looking Khazaria.
* Okey. This makes for an interesting layout of Sarkel. Let's say Khazars hold only that one county in 867 and struggle to keep it from Pechenges/Magyars of Crimea. Fun! /approve
* In this layout, however, I'm even more willing to argue for Tmutarakan being de jure Khazarian. There's awesome steppe-ish name for it too - Tamatarkha.
But Shouldn't it be focused towards the Pontic steeps? particular Azov area wasn't really valued by the Khazars, its not until you get the Kipchaks hanging around the place that it receives attention.
* Russian names in the steppe frustrate a bit - looking out of place. The three regions are all situated on rivers: Bug, Dniepr, Donets. That way there's some consistency in the naming. Alternatively, Turkish names could be used instead: Aksu (Bug), Ozu (Dnepr), Donets (? not sure of a fitting alternative, although the name is allegedly of nomad origin). Crimea, being a Mongol/Tatar name itself and populated by Turkics throughout the time frame, begs for Turkish/Mongol naming. Qirim?
Don't worry it will be fully dynamically named Bit uncertain about what to do with the base localisation, for Khazaria it will be most practical having the Turkic names as base applying the Russian etc as dynamic names, but Pontic steeps is a bit more difficult in deciding on which should be base and Russian the ones as are base now might be the most effective.(in that it would need the least amount of cultures given dynamic names for the place)
Donets province's biggest settlement would have been Sugrov so planned on going with that for Turkic.
* Still not sure about Abkhazian association with Kasogs. Any particular reasons behind it? From memory, they were troublesome neighbors and gave headache to Jigeti.
Agree fully. A related thing I have been pondering a bit, do you think it would make sense adding Balanjar or Astrakhan as a province? Astrakhan in particular could be usefull for buffing up Itil a bit.
I'm a creature of simple taste unconstrained by concerns of balance. If I can't squeeze in a county of sufficient size to make its name readable, I don't. Afaik both Astrakhan and Itil were in Volga's delta? I'd just culture-switch names. But I've never pretended to be anything other than lazy. :laugh:
But Shouldn't it be focused towards the Pontic steeps? particular Azov area wasn't really valued by the Khazars, its not until you get the Kipchaks hanging around the place that it receives attention.
Well, there's the region's namesake - Khazar fortress Tamantarkhan, yet another deliberate target of Sviatoslav. Azov was in Khazar hands too. It makes sense both geographically and from Khazar "trade must flow" bent. Southern varangians preferred to go to Volga through Don - around both these points, whereas Khazars in turn were getting access to the Black Sea. Jewish sites mention Taman as ruled by Khazars for a bit even after Sviatoslav's visit. If you're concerned about balance, there's always Alanian application for a separate kingdom.
Donets province's biggest settlement would have been Sugrov so planned on going with that for Turkic.
Oh, ye, fluidity of the steppe. Why you no give us consistent established ancient naming? Why do you torture my sedentary mind like this, forcing me to come to grips with anachronisms? Incomprehensible, elusive, savage... alluring.
As for the Crimea, I would advocate inserting a province on its western coast - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Theodoro - Theodoro, a small principality ruled over by the Crimean Goths. This would give them an independent county from where they could commence a Crimean Gothic world conquest
As for the Crimea, I would advocate inserting a province on its western coast - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Theodoro - Theodoro, a small principality ruled over by the Crimean Goths. This would give them an independent county from where they could commence a Crimean Gothic world conquest
, Khazaria, Volga-Bulgaria, Perm etc.
