[SWMH] Bohemia

[Cardinal Sin]

I shall dedicate my 500th post in this forum to a country I like very much and the history of which fascinates me: the Czech Republic, or as we all know it, Bohemia

The work you guys in the SWMH team have done on Bohemia is amazing, and I like how you factored in how Bohemia was very very rich in the middle ages, giving players in Bohemia those lush 6 and 7 slot counties

I have some suggestions though:

-Doudleby was very small and not very significant. BTW I know about the claim that it was the seat of Lord Slavnik but that would be long before 1066 and is not really substantiated anyway. The really important castle that completely outshone everything else in Southern Bohemia was Rosenberg/Rozmberk, the great stem castle of the Witigonen family. I would therefore suggest to rename Doudleby to Rozmberk (Rosenberg in German). In any case, the German name for Southern Bohemia is not Sud Böhmen (which sounds like saying that Bohemia is a kind of disgusting soup?), but Südböhmen, though I dislike that name as it is a bit generic It would also be nice if this county in the 1066 start was given to the Witigonen family. I know that is a little bit earlier than they appeared but would give the Bohemian duke a mighty family to contend with from the get-go.

-Glatz/Klodsko was an important though small county that for a substantial amount of time, whilst fully being a part of the Lands of the Bohemian Crown, was not really totally a part of Bohemia proper. Since Bohemia is such an enormous duchy, it may be sensible to split Glatz off, create a second tiny county (eg. Hummel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lordship_of_Hummel It could just have two holdings, one of which is taken from Hradec and one is taken from Olomouc; both of those are very powerful counties that might need a nerf) and to make a separate "duchy" with those two counties in it: the county Glatz, a third constituent part of the Kingdom of Bohemia.

-Hradec: I really connect the name Hradec in a medieval context to Jindrichuv Hradec: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jindřichův_Hradec This was the seat of the extremely powerful Hradec family. Kralove Hradec (Königgrätz) was at that time just a small insignificant town. I suggest the province should be renamed to Litomysl (Leitomischl in German) or perhaps even better Pardubice (Pardubitz in German) in order to honour the first archbishop of Prague

Also, I wanted to suggest some very small things for the 1337 setup, fully knowing that this is not a high priority - I think Silesia and Lusatia (Lausitz) by then should be a de jure part of Bohemia Also, it would be awesome if you could correct the first-born son of Johann I. of Bohemia - his name should not be Wenzel (as per Vanilla) but Karl. Kinda important considering this man would go on to become one of the most important Holy Roman Emperors in history. And my apologies if you have already done so

 

[JonStryker]

Doudleby indeed is an odd choice for that county. But having the Witigonen there nearly a hundred years early would be kinda odd.

Afaik Hradec wasn't all that unimportant as you think. Naming it Hradec is way more reasonable than naming it Pardubice. Pardubice was founded 400-500 years after the earliest start date.

 

[elvain]

I shall dedicate my 500th post in this forum to a country I like very much and the history of which fascinates me: the Czech Republic, or as we all know it, Bohemia

The work you guys in the SWMH team have done on Bohemia is amazing, and I like how you factored in how Bohemia was very very rich in the middle ages, giving players in Bohemia those lush 6 and 7 slot counties

Hi, I'm glad you like it, it was actually my first work on this mod, so my relation to this work is even more special, thank it already is as a work on my homeland.

But before we get to the details, thank you for the comments. Now as I am more familiar with modding and its mechanics, I will do some changes to Bohemia

-Doudleby was very small and not very significant. The really important castle that completely outshone everything else in Southern Bohemia was Rosenberg/Rozmberk, the great stem castle of the Witigonen family. I would therefore suggest to rename Doudleby to Rozmberk (Rosenberg in German). In any case, the German name for Southern Bohemia is not Sud Böhmen (which sounds like saying that Bohemia is a kind of disgusting soup?), but Südböhmen, though I dislike that name as it is a bit generic It would also be nice if this county in the 1066 start was given to the Witigonen family. I know that is a little bit earlier than they appeared but would give the Bohemian duke a mighty family to contend with from the get-go.

I understand your concern and that it indeed does look very odd (like JonStryker said). On the other hand, Doudleby really was an old administrative center of South Bohemia since 10th century. It was later abandoned, because the whole region's settlement map drasticaly changed after 12th century colonisation.

It can (and should) be renamed to Rozmberk/Rosenbeg or Budejovice/Budweis, but not before 13th century when they became region's centers (Budweis of the royal administration, Rozmberk of the Wittigonen holdings).

I'd like to assign the region to the Wittigonen, but like you said, it is bit too early (over a century too early) All Bohemian regional feudal families, the dynasty was found with the collapse of castellany administration system at the end of 12th century. (the region borders are based on this castellany administration).

That said - from historical perspective it is reasonable to name the province Doudleby and have Doudleby its capital all the way until the end of 12th century. Since the beggining of 13th century the province should be given to Wittingonen (Vítkovci) and since mid 13th century also renamed, but the name is still unclear. I'd prefer Jižní Čechy/Südböhmen and after 1258 Budějovice/Budweis. Not sure if this can be done. But what can snd should be (if not already uisn't) done is transfer of the capital to Rozmberk/Rosenberg.

PS: the connection of Doudleby with Slavník is most probably BS and deffinitely played 0 role in my consideration whether to make it province capital or not.

-Glatz/Klodsko was an important though small county that for a substantial amount of time, whilst fully being a part of the Lands of the Bohemian Crown, was not really totally a part of Bohemia proper. Since Bohemia is such an enormous duchy, it may be sensible to split Glatz off, create a second tiny county (eg. Hummel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lordship_of_Hummel It could just have two holdings, one of which is taken from Hradec and one is taken from Olomouc; both of those are very powerful counties that might need a nerf) and to make a separate "duch" with those two counties in it: the county Glatz, a third constituent part of the Kingdom of Bohemia.

The Kladsko/Glatz is quite complex problem. It was a tiny county which was gradualy gaining special status within Bohemia and during 15th century sneaked into Silesia.
However, it never gained a status equal to Moravia or Silesia, not even the special status which was granted to duchy of Opava in the 3rd 3/4 of 13th century.
Making it a center of duchy would be very ahistorical, though I understand that it is really weird in the context of the whole duchy, which is really large. If it is possible to have a county being subordinated directly to a kingdom, it would be the best way to represent Kladsko/Glatz.
Either I'm not sure if it is a good idea to split some territory from this already very tiny province.

-Hradec: I really connect the name Hradec in a medieval context to Jindrichuv Hradec: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jindřichův_Hradec This was the seat of the extremely powerful Hradec family. Kralove Hradec (Königgrätz) was at that time just a small insignificant town. I suggest the province should be renamed to Lytomisl (Leitomischl in German) or perhaps even better Pardubice (Pardubitz in German) in order to honour the first archbishop of Prague

Well, Hradec (Králové) was one of the most important centers in Bohemia, by far more important than (Jindřichův) Hradec, although the latter was a seat of a powerful family (actualy a branch of Wittingonen). That said I don't think there is a chance that I will rename the province to any of the suggested names.
In fact Litomysl was only a de-jure bishopric founded only in order to have at least 3 bishops under the newly founded archbishopric of Prague. The city was never any important and even the bishopric later disappeared (or was moved to Hradec Králové).

Hradec was traditionally the center of the entire eastern Bohemia, thuogh it was never seat of any local family. It was the center of old Premyslid castellany administration, during the 13th century it became major city of the region and the most important city in private demesne of queens of Bohemia.
In fact the suggestion of Pardubice is far more ahistorical as Pardubice was totally insignificant until 19th century, when it became one of the primary industrial centers of the region and became the first city that have ever got any close to compete with Hradec for status of the most important city in East Bohemia.


on a side note:
Bohemia was quite well centralized since the times of Boleslav I., who created the above mentioned castellany administration*. During 12th century the central power was weakened and the castellans gradualy privatized the holdings founding their own castles. It was also accompanied with first wave of collonization (this time from local resources) and led to foundation of local dynasties. The ones in the border and ppreviously uninhabited (like the south) areas became more important with Wittingonen being by far the most important (then followed by the lords of Duba/Lipa).
To contest their rising power the kings reformed the administrative system and based it on "royal cities", most of them being transformed from previous castellany centers (Litoměřice, Plzeň, Žatec, Hradec), but some like Budějovice newly founded (Budějovice in order to contest the extensive power of the Wittingonen).

Honestly, I would be most happy, if it was possible to have some kind of dynamic provinces, where larger provinces could be splitted. It would serve very well for Bohemia, Poland and HRE where the 12th-13th century collonisation highly increased number of holdings and settlements. I even thought about leaving some counties empty in 1066.

But like your suggestion about Wittingonen, it is a thing to be considered. The Premyslid dukes control way too many counties and it would make sense to assign some of them to some nobles, there just in't anybody... not until 1170's

Also, I wanted to suggest some very small things for the 1337 setup, fully knowing that this is not a high priority - I think Silesia and Lusatia (Lausitz) by then should be a de jure part of Bohemia Also, it would be awesome if you could correct the first-born son of Johann I. of Bohemia - his name should not be Wenzel (as per Vanilla) but Karl. Kinda important considering this man would go on to become one of the most important Holy Roman Emperors in history. And my apologies if you have already done so

Interesting suggestion, but they are all debatable.
1) Silesia still was considered as de-jure part of Poland, but you are right that it was about this time when king Jan/Johann the Blind/of Luxembourg resolved this issue when he exchanged resignation of his claims for Polish crown for polish resignation to regain Silesia from Bohemia. I will check it and probably change it this way.
2) King Karel/Karl was born as Václav/Wenzel. The name Charles/Karl/Karel he got during his studies in France much later. In 1337 he was stil Václav so this setup is historically correct, though it seems misleading.
Having him as Václav is probably hypercorrect, so renaming him to Karl just before 1337 would actualy make some sense.

Sorry for long post

 

[JonStryker]

If it is possible to have a county being subordinated directly to a kingdom, it would be the best way to represent Kladsko/Glatz.

This is indeed possible

 

[wizardchakka]

Today I was about to do a HRE vassal game after a loooong time of nothing but ToG starts, and when browsing for an interesting count I noticed that Ota "The Handsome" Premyslid is not playable because for some reason he is ruling a theocracy. This is in both the stamford bridge and william the conq starts. Now I know that I have played Ota before many months back, but that was without SWMH. Is this a mistake in SWMH or WAD (I have no idea if Ota was a member of the clergy IRL)?

Running PB+SWMH+ARKO+NBRT+VIET events, and some small mods not part of HIP.

 

[Cardinal Sin]

First of all, elvain and team, I need to thank you! The map is so awesome the only disadvantage is I am chagrined every time I see the vanilla map now.

Secondly, I think I am now going to use the German names of the places. This is not because I am an imperialist (and I am sorry if it is offensive!) who wants the Austrohungarian Empire back but because they are much easier for me - and I do not have those special marks like the hacek

Anyways, as to the provinces:

-Doudley/Southern Bohemia: I suppose the best idea would be to make Rosenberg the capital and rename the province as Southern Bohemia (with their respective Czech and German names). Then you guys do not have to fiddle around with events to rename the county. Doudleby can still exist as a castle in the bottom slots

-Hradec: I did not know Königgrätz was that important! Alright then, thanks for telling me However, I think it should actually be Grätz before around 1300. Königgrätz of course is a well known name due to the battle but does not fit into the middle ages - if anything, it would be Königingrätz!

-Glatz: so a county not within a duchy can be made? Hmm I suppose that is a solution, but then the duchy map would look strange with that hole in Bohemia I think What about a one-province duchy, like Venice?

-1337: Yes, I think 1335 Silesia became Bohemian... though the deal was only completely done in the treaty of Namslau 1348... Also, I know Karl was initially baptised Wenzel, but I thought he already changed his name as a child?

 

[EmperorTojo]

Also, I wanted to suggest some very small things for the 1337 setup, fully knowing that this is not a high priority - I think Silesia and Lusatia (Lausitz) by then should be a de jure part of Bohemia Also, it would be awesome if you could correct the first-born son of Johann I. of Bohemia - his name should not be Wenzel (as per Vanilla) but Karl. Kinda important considering this man would go on to become one of the most important Holy Roman Emperors in history. And my apologies if you have already done so

Kazimierz the great renounced any claims on Silesia in 1335, so it could make sense to have it de jure Bohemia by that point. Maybe. As far as I know anyway Poland never made an attempt to retake it after it was initially lost to Bohemia.

 

[elvain]

Yes it is possible to have an "independent county" within a kingdom,

- so it will be the status of Kladsko/Glatz within kingdom of Bohemia. It won't be empty in de-jure duchy map, it will have colour of k_Bohemia as well as its name, also probably giving the count a seat among the electors if k_Bohemia is elective. Giving it a duchy tier would be far beyond its historical importance.

- As for Doudleby/South Bohemia. I will then rename it to SouthBohemia/SüdBöhmen/Jizni Cechy then, but it won't get Rosenberg as its capital until the castle is founded. Until then Doudleby still is the choice.
(btw, anyone noticed that since the last update, the capital of Praha in 867 is not Praha? and the same with Brno? )

- thanks for the note about Königgrätz, I haven't really checked the ethymology of the German name before. You're right and the county and barony is renamed to Grätz.

- You're right about Silesia in 1337. Was I aware of the possibility of coding the de-jure drift when making this overhaul, I would probably do it. Sorry for that. Will fix it.

However, I am not very sure about Lusatia. I was considering putting Upper Lusatia under de-jure Bohemia in times of Ottokar I. (1197-1230), but I don't think it is accurate. As for Lusatia as a whole, it should not be de-jure Bohemia prior to 1360 (not confirmed, just a guess), I even have the impression that lower Lusatia was acquired by king Charles around this time, so it should not fall under Bohemia in 1337.

- Yup, you are right about king Charles/Karl/Karel... after writing my last post I realized that by his age of 21 he already wasn't known as Václav anymore.

- Are the special symbols problematic for you? I notived that "ř", "š" and some other don't work, so I think I only left "ě" there. If it isn't displayed well, I will use old czech transcription then (it would be more accurate anyways as the above mentioned signs were introduced by Jan Hus in 15th century)

@wizardchakka
yes, Olomouc was made bishopric. I thought it was the same in vanilla and left it this way, though for the early period of Moravian Premyslids before 1197 it is not very accurate. Will change it. Thanks!

EDIT: as I spoke about the castellany administrative system and the reason why Doudleby is the capital of SouthBohemia instead of Rožmberk/Rosenberg, here is a map of Bohemian administration as it survived until 1220's-1230's

 

[JonStryker]

Hmm I suppose that is a solution, but then the duchy map would look strange with that hole in Bohemia I think

That duchy map wouldn't look all that strange: Glatz would just have "Bohemia" were usually the duchy name is written.

Btw: I prefer the German names, too. But for me it is because I am an imperialist and would like to have the Austrian Empire back *muahahaha*

Nah, just kidding. I am 1/4 Czech myself xD

- Are the special symbols problematic for you? I notived that "ř", "š" and some other don't work, so I think I only left "ě" there. If it isn't displayed well, I will use old czech transcription then (it would be more accurate anyways as the above mentioned signs were introduced by Jan Hus in 15th century)

Afaik 'rz' was used in place of ř back than. Not very pretty but better than 'r' alone.

I'd kinda enjoy "old style" Czech names in the mod, though:
http://www.kb.se/codex-gigas/eng/Long/texter/calender/Transcribed-Necrology/

 

[Ruwaard]

A brief reply: I agree, that Bohemia looks great.

A part of Upper Lusatia (Budissin/Bautzen) was gained by Vladislav II in 1158, however between 1253-1262 it was lost again (at least for direct rule), only to be regained in 1319 (Budissin) and 1329 (Görlitz). So if one wants to be accurate, it probably shouldn't be made Bohemian, unless someone would want it for gameplay/balance reasons.

I totally agree, that dynamic provinces and the ability to split them would be good for the entire HRE. Another reason to do so, would be the changed feudal political situation. Though in some cases having provinces with many available slots, but only a few build holdings could also suffice. For instance how lands were 'won' from the rivers and the sea with polders (I'm from the Low Countries ) or forests were cleared etc.

One small contribution to the Charles* IV debate, this may help, he changed his name from Wenceslaus to Charles* upon his Confirmation in 1323. (*= BTW the Dutch form is also Karel ).

I find the Kladsko/Glatz solution intriguing, since it may help the representation of some other parts of the HRE, if a few conditions would be met. Firstly it should be done at later start dates (maybe with the help of history file to have a more dynamic de jure setup); and secondly it should by no means make them electors of the empire, which would be a much too great honour. In fact that would be my only concern for this solution, it IMHO shouldn't lead to a situation, where the game would somehow see them as imperial electors; however I'm not against a potential position as a royal elector (so limited to their de jure kingdom).

OK, relatively brief.

 

[elvain]

Btw: I prefer the German names, too. But for me it is because I am an imperialist and would like to have the Austrian Empire back *muahahaha*

Nah, just kidding. I am 1/4 Czech myself xD

Meh, your location says everything. Every north Austrian is a Czech, just speaking German

Afaik 'rz' was used in place of ř back than. Not very pretty but better than 'r' alone.

I'd kinda enjoy "old style" Czech names in the mod, though:
http://www.kb.se/codex-gigas/eng/Long/texter/calender/Transcribed-Necrology/

That's actually my biggest immersion breaking preference - I have somehow built a little aversion against oldish Czech writing, back from times when some of my friends kept writing in this old style, which was - in regular daily communication - quite annoying, so I am big supporter of Jan Hus' reform

One small contribution to the Charles* IV debate, this may help, he changed his name from Wenceslaus to Charles* upon his Confirmation in 1323. (*= BTW the Dutch form is also Karel ).

A part of Upper Lusatia (Budissin/Bautzen) was gained by Vladislav II in 1158, however between 1253-1262 it was lost again (at least for direct rule), only to be regained in 1319 (Budissin) and 1329 (Görlitz). So if one wants to be accurate, it probably shouldn't be made Bohemian, unless someone would want it for gameplay/balance reasons.

Amen. Thank you for clearing it.

It's always good to have someone who looks in sources rather than digging in his own memory

It might make sense to have Lusatia be de-jure part of Bohemia once it was lost after 1253, so Bohemian kings would desire to regain it. But it might be dealt via claims.
The problem is that Bohemian claim should only go for Upper Lusatia (Bautzen) and only later also for lower (which is nicely served dealt with CK2 de jure mechanics)

I totally agree, that dynamic provinces and the ability to split them would be good for the entire HRE. Another reason to do so, would be the changed feudal political situation. Though in some cases having provinces with many available slots, but only a few build holdings could also suffice. For instance how lands were 'won' from the rivers and the sea with polders (I'm from the Low Countries ) or forests were cleared etc.

Well, this is rather for completely different discussion... the main problem is that there were owners of large and very sparsely inhabited territories, which in CK terms cause some characters owning too much land over their demesne limit, but no vassals, which can't be solved via provinces with very few or no initial baronies in.

I find the Kladsko/Glatz solution intriguing, since it may help the representation of some other parts of the HRE, if a few conditions would be met. Firstly it should be done at later start dates (maybe with the help of history file to have a more dynamic de jure setup); and secondly it should by no means make them electors of the empire, which would be a much too great honour. In fact that would be my only concern for this solution, it IMHO shouldn't lead to a situation, where the game would somehow see them as imperial electors; however I'm not against a potential position as a royal elector (so limited to their de jure kingdom).

I think it should work, but for the HRE mechanics I agree that they should be subordinated directly to the kings and not the emperor, so they won't be electors.

 

[Cardinal Sin]

OK, I'll just refer to elvain's points in issue:

-I hope that Glatz does not get to be an elector - I suppose this must be tested! But if that worked that would be interesting... sure other counties that do not really fit in with duchies could get that treatment. Just thinking of Middlesex (which is not Essex) or Constantinople, for example.

-Thank you for the map, it looks lush! So it seems Doudleby was still a thing in the 1200s. Hmm. Just remember though, it's Südböhmen without a capital B BTW about Prague I did not notice! Is the capital in 867 Vysehrad?

-Thanks for the Grätz fix I just hope nobody confuses it with Graz in Steiermark or Windischgrätz in Krajina^^

-Yay, Bohemian Silesia in 1337! And Karl instead of Wenzel. Very good indeed This shall warrant a 1337 Moravia start.

-Hmm I do not have a keyboard with the haceks. I do not know about the game though. However, here on the forum they are displayed well.

-Good to see Olomouc does not start as a bishopric right off the bat. BTW if I am correct the bishop of Olomouc was also a duke in 1337! To be exact, the duke of Hotzenplotz. If you are from a German-speaking country you may laugh now

-I am a Western Austrian^^ However, my grandmother can trace some of her ancestry back to the Sudeten Germans. Hence I am rather sure that I have at least a bit of Czech in me^^

 

[elvain]

ok, so I needed to take a little break from all the Persian stuff, so I came back to do some Bohemian stuff only to find out that I still owe you some changes here.

So I can promise that with the Eastern expansion, there will be also some nice new stuff and fixes in Bohemia. OTOH, it won't be total overhaul of the entire history yet (in future I'd like to put all the major noble families in and give them appropriate land, if they don't have it already in vanilla, which I seriously doubt, but can't say as I have hardly played past 1250).

However, these changes will cover the early Bohemian noble families, especially the Vršovic dynasty - Vršovci:

I hope the notes explain pretty much everything.

I also added few brothers of St.Adalbert (St. Vojtěch) from the Slavník family, who were murdered in 995 in Libice, supposedly by Vršovci family

 

[Urzhail64]

Bohemia has long been one of my favorite starting positions in CK2..I'm glad to see there's a post about that dukedom/kingdom. It's also one of the most fun places to play out in CK2 too - especially if near the 1241 bookmark and afterwards.

 

[Cardinal Sin]

Just wanted to take the opportunity to thank you for not forgetting me I do not get to write here as much anymore unfortunately but I still eagerly follow HIP, and it's great to see how SWMH is getting along

 

[elvain]

Bohemia has long been one of my favorite starting positions in CK2..I'm glad to see there's a post about that dukedom/kingdom. It's also one of the most fun places to play out in CK2 too - especially if near the 1241 bookmark and afterwards.

I'm glad to see that my motherland is found so interesting also for others. I'm doing my best to make it inreresting also in older times, though there isn't much known about local nobles before the 13th century. But as you see, there is something and based on these ingredients I tried to cook you a good bohemian meal
I believe it will be tasty.

Just wanted to take the opportunity to thank you for not forgetting me I do not get to write here as much anymore unfortunately but I still eagerly follow HIP, and it's great to see how SWMH is getting along

Your remarks were always good, so it is pleasing to take them into account, even though some of them took me so long.
After all, as suggested in the post above, let's face it, Bohemia is more interesting in the later periods, which are far from looking as they should be in our mod.

 

[zijistark]

Glad to see. Bohemia is an all-time favorite of mine.

 

[Urzhail64]

It inspired me to start a new Bohemia game in the 768 start.

At the moment, fabricating claims on Moravian counties to seize the Duchy of Moravia while that kingdom is busy fending off the Magyars' push from the south (and failing miserably) and I already claimed the dejure part of Bohemia from the Moravian kingdom so I'm working on getting the fiefs up and building my army for the big reckoning with Moravia. I already got a claim on Olmuc already since it's the biggest county in Moravia.

The Polish high chiefs are pushing Moravia from the east as well..they're currently fighting over Wroclaw.

I'll have to decide what route I want to go as far as religion goes..stay pagan, accept Catholicism with an eye towards eventually going Cathar just to make things super interesting - mainly cause the ruler is female.

And to the OP...you're right..Bohemia has a very interesting history..the birthplace of the Hussites..the place where the 30 Year's War began with the Defenestration of Prague. And prior to that war, Bohemia was probably one of the most wealthiest kingdoms. But the Thirty Year's War did the most damage to Bohemia out of any single duchy/kingdom as their population losses was the greatest of any region in Europe and the riches of Bohemia just made it extra attractive for looting.

Anyway..it's central position between Catholicism, pagans, Greek Orthodox and later on, the Mongols and then the Ottomans make it one of the most interesting positions to play although I'd like to see Paradox expand the game past 1453 for the Ottoman impact on Bohemia. (although I also want to see the notables of the Renaissance as well such as Caterina Sforza...)

 

[elvain]

meh, 768 I simply can't stand the vanilla setup in the region in any startdate because the map is simply so terribly inaccurate, and the defacto setup in 867 is also so way off... as well as 768 where it is just pure fantasy *sigh*

but as for the rest what you said, it reminds me that I wanted to add some orthodox priests to 867 Moravia, so it could possibly turn orthodox, though it would be inaccurate as it was neither Rostislav, nor the C&M mission's objective as they all drove the country to be subordinated to Rome and not Constantinople.
but yes, the situation before christianization was very interesting.

I still need to find a good way to make Moravia more expansionist and to give Svatopluk the ambition to conquer Bohemia, Silesia and other surrounding Slavic countries.
It irritates me to see Moravia survive Magyar invasion only to stay peacefully as it is, without expanding...without caring about neighbouring Bohemia, Balaton, Silesia and all other smaller Slavic states which should be natural targets of Moravian expansion.
This is what I see as my biggest failiure as a member of SWMH mod team who is Bohemian, that even in SWMH we experience what you describe:
That Moravia isn't the ambitious initiator of historical movements, but usually rather a target of foreign expansion of its neighbours.

 

[theKing1988]

meh, 768 I simply can't stand the vanilla setup in the region in any startdate because the map is simply so terribly inaccurate, and the defacto setup in 867 is also so way off... as well as 768 where it is just pure fantasy *sigh*

but as for the rest what you said, it reminds me that I wanted to add some orthodox priests to 867 Moravia, so it could possibly turn orthodox, though it would be inaccurate as it was neither Rostislav, nor the C&M mission's objective as they all drove the country to be subordinated to Rome and not Constantinople.
but yes, the situation before christianization was very interesting.

I still need to find a good way to make Moravia more expansionist and to give Svatopluk the ambition to conquer Bohemia, Silesia and other surrounding Slavic countries.
It irritates me to see Moravia survive Magyar invasion only to stay peacefully as it is, without expanding...without caring about neighbouring Bohemia, Balaton, Silesia and all other smaller Slavic states which should be natural targets of Moravian expansion.
This is what I see as my biggest failiure as a member of SWMH mod team who is Bohemian, that even in SWMH we experience what you describe:
That Moravia isn't the ambitious initiator of historical movements, but usually rather a target of foreign expansion of its neighbours.

The Christian missions among the Slavic peoples really need a rite mechanic like the one Mad King James proposed in the main forum a while back to be portrayed accurately, don't you agree?

It is simply impossible to portray the Orthodox Christianity under Roman rite introduced by Cyril and Methodius otherwise.