[MOD] SWMH 2.0 Map, de jure and general history mod. For a superior CK2 experience

[Meneth]

Is there any reason why Armenia (Hayk) is a dejure part of Byzantium?
Historically most (but not all) of it was held by the Roman Empire from 19 BCE to 337 CE. Then until the early 11th century, only a small western part of it was held.
All of it was lost in 1074, never to be recovered.

So from what I can tell, Armenia should not be a dejure part of the Byzantine Empire, as it was only held by them for about half a century, unless you consider the Roman Empire holding it a dejure claim, in which case half the map should be dejure Byzantine

Cilicia on the other hand should be dejure Byzantine, seeing as they held it for about 1000 years before finally losing it after the campaign starts.

 

[theKing1988]

Is there any reason why Armenia (Hayk) is a dejure part of Byzantium?
Historically most (but not all) of it was held by the Roman Empire from 19 BCE to 337 CE. Then until the early 11th century, only a small western part of it was held.
All of it was lost in 1074, never to be recovered.

So from what I can tell, Armenia should not be a dejure part of the Byzantine Empire, as it was only held by them for about half a century, unless you consider the Roman Empire holding it a dejure claim, in which case half the map should be dejure Byzantine

Cilicia on the other hand should be dejure Byzantine, seeing as they held it for about 1000 years before finally losing it after the campaign starts.

I'm all for that, both from a historical standpoint and from a gameplay standpoint, Cilicia is much more de-jure ERE territory than Armenia proper ever was, and taking Armenia(Hayk) out of the de-jure ERE border might help curb the worst AI shennanigans, so thumbs up to Meneth for that idea.

 

[.Raistlin.]

Does this remove my ability to declare war on pagans? It happened with Magnate Lords (where declare war is greyed) as well and I need to be able to attack the pagans for an AAR.

 

[Ofaloaf]

what I want to know is what exactly the people dislike about them, so we could - if possible - change it

It can lead to some strange conquest behaviors. In my last game, the Despotate of Epirus (Frankish, Catholic) conquered Tripolitania, and from there went south, conquered the oases, and then conquered Mali. I understand that they represent traditional trade routes, but are they appropriate avenues for the conquest of Sub-Saharan Africa? Because, implemented as full-fledged provinces, that's exactly what the AI treats them as.

 

[Aasmul]

Is there any more accurate ETA for next version ? I can't wait to adapt my DEIOU for SWMH.

no ETA yet, my best guess would be three weaks but its just a guess. Since its such big version(read HUMONGOUS) we will likely be doing some devdiaries to show(off^^) some of the new stuff, when the parts in question are near ready.

Is there any reason why Armenia (Hayk) is a dejure part of Byzantium?
Historically most (but not all) of it was held by the Roman Empire from 19 BCE to 337 CE. Then until the early 11th century, only a small western part of it was held.
All of it was lost in 1074, never to be recovered.

So from what I can tell, Armenia should not be a dejure part of the Byzantine Empire, as it was only held by them for about half a century, unless you consider the Roman Empire holding it a dejure claim, in which case half the map should be dejure Byzantine

Cilicia on the other hand should be dejure Byzantine, seeing as they held it for about 1000 years before finally losing it after the campaign starts.

Not any definitive argument no, the most western parts were longtime parts of the ERE but they where made out of Armeneian principalities. So there was some overlap and I was a iffy at where to dismember Armenia vs. ERE in way I would be happy with.

For Cillia yes ERE might come more natural. The reason I didn't include it was the same that I didn't put Antioch in. Being that the game is "crusader kings". I liked the idea of the crusader states(yes it wasn't a crusader state but it worked in such close tandem with Antioch through most of its exsistence, that might aswell have been) would if they were formed, be free to carve their own little history without interference from a de jure empires( be able to set their own crownlaws, not be de jure claimed, etc)
Its a debateable desicion and a lot could be said against it, but Im pretty happy with it especially in game terms.

Im more open to move Armenia out than including Cillia. Can't say definitively how the area will look until I have had time to do somthing about Anatolia though, so any possible changes for this version might only survive until Anatolia gets refurnished(likely two versions away).

Does this remove my ability to declare war on pagans? It happened with Magnate Lords (where declare war is greyed) as well and I need to be able to attack the pagans for an AAR.

No it works fine^^, Meneth kindly borrowed us the holywar CB from Project Balance hence why its a bit different than vanilla.

So holywar now works this way:
Dukes and below cannot declare holy war on provinces they don't border
Emperors need Limited Crown Authority to declare holy war
Kings need Limited Crown Authority to declare holy war on non-bordering duchies. Emperors need Medium
Muslims cannot declare holy war or Jihad on Miaphysites or Orthodox Ethiopians, and vice versa
Limited Crown Authority is required to declare holy war on pagans
Kings with any dukes at under -10 opinion need Medium Crown Authority to declare holy war on Pagans
Emperors with any kings/dukes at under -10 opinion need Medium Crown Authority to declare holy war
Kings with any dukes at under -10 opinion need Limited Crown Authority to declare holy war
Emperors need to have above -15 relations with all duke/king vassals to increase Crown Authority
Depressed, infirm, or incapable rulers cannot declare holy war
Content rulers cannot declare holy war unless they're Brave or Wroth, Zealous, Lunatic, or Possessed
Craven rulers cannot declare holy war unless they're Ambitious, Wroth, Zealous, Lunatic, or Possessed
Cynical rulers cannot declare holy war unless they're Ambitious, Brave, Wroth, Lunatic, or Possessed
Stressed rulers cannot declare holy war unless they're Ambitious, Brave, Wroth, Zealous Lunatic, or Possessed
Having any two of Cynical, Craven, Stressed, and Content will prevent rulers from declaring holy war (unless they're Lunatic or Possessed)
If the target duchy is not part of a de jure kingdom or empire the ruler holds, he has to be Ambitious, Brave, Wroth, Zealous, Lunatic, or Possessed to declare holy war
If the target duchy is not part of a de jure kingdom or empire the ruler holds, he cannot be Cynical, Craven, Stressed, and Content (unless they're Possessed or Lunatic, or has any two of Ambitious, Brave, Wroth or Zealous)
Rulers below 100 piety cannot start holy wars
Added a 5-year cooldown between holy wars and the special Muslim CBs (when used upon other religious groups)

 

[CrackdToothGrin]

So from what I can tell, Armenia should not be a dejure part of the Byzantine Empire, as it was only held by them for about half a century, unless you consider the Roman Empire holding it a dejure claim, in which case half the map should be dejure Byzantine

Blame it on Basil II, but the nominal control the ERE had over Eastern Anatolia shouldn't make them dejure. Before Basil II the Armenians and Georgians ruled themselves just fine. Everything east of the line heading southwest from Trebizond to Cilicia should be dejure Armenian (Or Georgian).

 

[Meneth]

no ETA yet, my best guess would be three weaks but its just a guess. Since its such big version(read HUMONGOUS) we will likely be doing some devdiaries to show(off^^) some of the new stuff, when the parts in question are near ready.


Not any definitive argument no, the most western parts were longtime parts of the ERE but they where made out of Armeneian principalities. So there was some overlap and I was a iffy at where to dismember Armenia vs. ERE in way I would be happy with.

For Cillia yes ERE might come more natural. The reason I didn't include it was the same that I didn't put Antioch in. Being that the game is "crusader kings". I liked the idea of the crusader states(yes it wasn't a crusader state but it worked in such close tandem with Antioch through most of its exsistence, that might aswell have been) would if they were formed, be free to carve their own little history without interference from a de jure empires( be able to set their own crownlaws, not be de jure claimed, etc)
Its a debateable desicion and a lot could be said against it, but Im pretty happy with it especially in game terms.

Im more open to move Armenia out than including Cillia. Can't say definitively how the area will look until I have had time to do somthing about Anatolia though, so any possible changes for this version might only survive until Anatolia gets refurnished(likely two versions away).

Cilicia was a part of the Roman, then Eastern Roman Empire for over a thousand years (though very briefly lost a couple of times, but so was Thrace). They had ruled that area for longer in 1066 than much of Thrace, so it not being a dejure part of the empire makes very little sense.
Some small western parts of what's currently Armenia definitely make sense as dejure Byzantine, but anything east of the Black Sea does not.

No it works fine^^, Meneth kindly borrowed us the holywar CB from Project Balance hence why its a bit different than vanilla.

So holywar now works this way:
Dukes and below cannot declare holy war on provinces they don't border
Emperors need Limited Crown Authority to declare holy war
Kings need Limited Crown Authority to declare holy war on non-bordering duchies. Emperors need Medium
Muslims cannot declare holy war or Jihad on Miaphysites or Orthodox Ethiopians, and vice versa
Limited Crown Authority is required to declare holy war on pagans
Kings with any dukes at under -10 opinion need Medium Crown Authority to declare holy war on Pagans
Emperors with any kings/dukes at under -10 opinion need Medium Crown Authority to declare holy war
Kings with any dukes at under -10 opinion need Limited Crown Authority to declare holy war
Emperors need to have above -15 relations with all duke/king vassals to increase Crown Authority
Depressed, infirm, or incapable rulers cannot declare holy war
Content rulers cannot declare holy war unless they're Brave or Wroth, Zealous, Lunatic, or Possessed
Craven rulers cannot declare holy war unless they're Ambitious, Wroth, Zealous, Lunatic, or Possessed
Cynical rulers cannot declare holy war unless they're Ambitious, Brave, Wroth, Lunatic, or Possessed
Stressed rulers cannot declare holy war unless they're Ambitious, Brave, Wroth, Zealous Lunatic, or Possessed
Having any two of Cynical, Craven, Stressed, and Content will prevent rulers from declaring holy war (unless they're Lunatic or Possessed)
If the target duchy is not part of a de jure kingdom or empire the ruler holds, he has to be Ambitious, Brave, Wroth, Zealous, Lunatic, or Possessed to declare holy war
If the target duchy is not part of a de jure kingdom or empire the ruler holds, he cannot be Cynical, Craven, Stressed, and Content (unless they're Possessed or Lunatic, or has any two of Ambitious, Brave, Wroth or Zealous)
Rulers below 100 piety cannot start holy wars
Added a 5-year cooldown between holy wars and the special Muslim CBs (when used upon other religious groups)

You can probably drop the opinion based bits of that; I've done it in PB a few versions ago, and it hasn't made holy wars out of control
And if you haven't already, you should add the set of decisions showing when holy war is possible to make it more transparent.

Blame it on Basil II, but the nominal control the ERE had over Eastern Anatolia shouldn't make them dejure. Before Basil II the Armenians and Georgians ruled themselves just fine. Everything east of the line heading southwest from Trebizond to Cilicia should be dejure Armenian (Or Georgian).

Very much this

 

[elvain]

It can lead to some strange conquest behaviors. In my last game, the Despotate of Epirus (Frankish, Catholic) conquered Tripolitania, and from there went south, conquered the oases, and then conquered Mali. I understand that they represent traditional trade routes, but are they appropriate avenues for the conquest of Sub-Saharan Africa? Because, implemented as full-fledged provinces, that's exactly what the AI treats them as.

Thanks.
We know about this issue and believe me, I will do everything to prevent this. As I said above, Saharan oases will be removed and there will be more provinces. One of the intentions is to increase attrition for armies marching accross the desert. I also plan other features to prevent trans-Saharan empires. They were not tested yet, but I hope they will work. If not, I will do everything to prevent such conquest to be lasting (the only place, where this should actually work - and even there in limitted way - is the westernmost part of Sahara the place of Almoravid empire).

 

[.Raistlin.]

So holywar now works this way:
Dukes and below cannot declare holy war on provinces they don't border
Emperors need Limited Crown Authority to declare holy war
Kings need Limited Crown Authority to declare holy war on non-bordering duchies. Emperors need Medium
Muslims cannot declare holy war or Jihad on Miaphysites or Orthodox Ethiopians, and vice versa
Limited Crown Authority is required to declare holy war on pagans
Kings with any dukes at under -10 opinion need Medium Crown Authority to declare holy war on Pagans
Emperors with any kings/dukes at under -10 opinion need Medium Crown Authority to declare holy war
Kings with any dukes at under -10 opinion need Limited Crown Authority to declare holy war
Emperors need to have above -15 relations with all duke/king vassals to increase Crown Authority
Depressed, infirm, or incapable rulers cannot declare holy war
Content rulers cannot declare holy war unless they're Brave or Wroth, Zealous, Lunatic, or Possessed
Craven rulers cannot declare holy war unless they're Ambitious, Wroth, Zealous, Lunatic, or Possessed
Cynical rulers cannot declare holy war unless they're Ambitious, Brave, Wroth, Lunatic, or Possessed
Stressed rulers cannot declare holy war unless they're Ambitious, Brave, Wroth, Zealous Lunatic, or Possessed
Having any two of Cynical, Craven, Stressed, and Content will prevent rulers from declaring holy war (unless they're Lunatic or Possessed)
If the target duchy is not part of a de jure kingdom or empire the ruler holds, he has to be Ambitious, Brave, Wroth, Zealous, Lunatic, or Possessed to declare holy war
If the target duchy is not part of a de jure kingdom or empire the ruler holds, he cannot be Cynical, Craven, Stressed, and Content (unless they're Possessed or Lunatic, or has any two of Ambitious, Brave, Wroth or Zealous)
Rulers below 100 piety cannot start holy wars
Added a 5-year cooldown between holy wars and the special Muslim CBs (when used upon other religious groups)

Thanks for this. Is there somewhere I can edit the part where 'Kings with any dukes at under -10 opinion need Medium Crown Authority to declare holy war on Pagans'? My AAR starts with a 16 year old king and every duke hates him.

 

[Meneth]

Thanks for this. Is there somewhere I can edit the part where 'Kings with any dukes at under -10 opinion need Medium Crown Authority to declare holy war on Pagans'? My AAR starts with a 16 year old king and every duke hates him.

In 00_cb_types in common\cb_types in the SWMH folder. Search for "religious" and you'll find all conditions for Holy War.

 

[.Raistlin.]

In 00_cb_types in common\cb_types in the SWMH folder. Search for "religious" and you'll find all conditions for Holy War.

Thank you kindly.

I just looked through it and couldn't find what I was looking for.

 

[CiderMuffin]

I was wondering why the huge chunk of the badiyat ash-sham was missing since I think historically that land was settled in.

 

[elvain]

I was wondering why the huge chunk of the badiyat ash-sham was missing since I think historically that land was settled in.

please, could you give us more info about it? when was it inhabited and by whom?
according to our knowledge it was deserted diring the medieval period

 

[theKing1988]

I was wondering why the huge chunk of the badiyat ash-sham was missing since I think historically that land was settled in.

I'm pretty sure you are mistaken about that.

 

[Aasmul]

I was wondering why the huge chunk of the badiyat ash-sham was missing since I think historically that land was settled in.

Nope it is and was a dessert(not all sand, the most northern and western parts is mostly arrid plains but there still isn't any people), didn't live aaaaaaaaaaaaaaanybody back then, and there very nearly still dosn't to this very day. There is a few gas stations along the interstate roads but otherwise 99% of the population of the syrian dessert lives in the Palmyra.
The caravan routes in medival times follows the ones made in the mod and the only inhabital places were the small oasis/dessertfort provinces we got in.
If you want to get a feel of the place and be entertained at the same time then chek out the topgear christmasspecial from series 16

 

[.Raistlin.]

You can probably drop the opinion based bits of that; I've done it in PB a few versions ago, and it hasn't made holy wars out of control
And if you haven't already, you should add the set of decisions showing when holy war is possible to make it more transparent.


Very much this

If the opinion bits don't count then my declare war is still broken. I have limited crown authority and still can't declare war on pagans.

 

[Meneth]

If the opinion bits don't count then my declare war is still broken. I have limited crown authority and still can't declare war on pagans.

They count in stand-alone SWMH. I'm just suggesting to Aasmul to get rid of those conditions
Feel free to try PB+SWMH though; it makes the game as a whole a lot more balanced, and does get rid of those opinion conditions as of a few versions ago. Link to Project Balance is in my signature.

 

[.Raistlin.]

They count in stand-alone SWMH. I'm just suggesting to Aasmul to get rid of those conditions
Feel free to try PB+SWMH though; it makes the game as a whole a lot more balanced, and does get rid of those opinion conditions as of a few versions ago. Link to Project Balance is in my signature.

Different than Synergy I assume then? I'll give it a try, thanks.
Just tried it and there are only like 5 nations on the map and none playable. I like a lot of what Synergy does but I need to be able to declare holy wars.

 

[Meneth]

Different than Synergy I assume then? I'll give it a try, thanks.

Yeah, Synergy is CK2+ and SWMH.
CK2+ is more content-oriented than PB; it adds a lot of new stuff which some people obviously like, while PB tries to stay much closer to the vanilla experience, simply tweaking things for the most part to make them more historically plausible and make things a bit more interesting.

 

[fairleystuff]

Different than Synergy I assume then? I'll give it a try, thanks.
Just tried it and there are only like 5 nations on the map and none playable. I like a lot of what Synergy does but I need to be able to declare holy wars.

In PB+SWMH I never have a problem not being able to declare holy war. It's very easy to breed the right traits, and Grand Hunt often gives guaranteed diligent trait. You just have to watch out for stress.