[MOD] SWMH 2.0 Map, de jure and general history mod. For a superior CK2 experience

[lexoneir]

Has anyone formed the Roman Empire with this mod installed? I'm trying to do so, and I'm running into a problem where the game doesn't recognize that I completely control the Duchy of Jerusalem. It recognizes all the others, but not that one. It might be a separate issue, but just checking.

 

[Lamprey]

In my recent game as Italy, I can't declare holy wars anymore. Is this a feature in the mod, or a bug?

The history here is, I started as Matilda, her descendants eventually broke away from the HRE and created the empire of Italia. I holy warred for a duchy in north Africa (the one to the left of Tunis, forget the name). Pushed a claim for France and added it to the empire; at around the same time, the Fatimid realm broke up. Seems like a great time to holy war for the rest of Africa, right?

Wrong. My Catholic king can't declare wars on Muslims without a cb anymore. What gives?

 

[Mr. Capiatlist]

I don't like the oasis spots, the AI wastes a lot of time fighting over them, and it leads to insanity like the Fatimid invasions of Mali.

k_york needs its creation conditions updated, it's using an outdated culture. I also think the orange color is weird and wrong, and the raven should be black.

I like some of the Oases, but in Africa they lead to one of two things: Morocco conquering Ethiopia or Egypt conquering Mali... both of which are crazy.

 

[ragbe]

In my recent game as Italy, I can't declare holy wars anymore. Is this a feature in the mod, or a bug?

The history here is, I started as Matilda, her descendants eventually broke away from the HRE and created the empire of Italia. I holy warred for a duchy in north Africa (the one to the left of Tunis, forget the name). Pushed a claim for France and added it to the empire; at around the same time, the Fatimid realm broke up. Seems like a great time to holy war for the rest of Africa, right?

Wrong. My Catholic king can't declare wars on Muslims without a cb anymore. What gives?

From an earlier post:

I just lost my cynical trait as Alexios Komnenos and the religious cb appeared, so i went into the cb file and took a look at the religious cb. It would seem that with Meneth's setup, certain traits precludes you from having access to the religious cb, just as certain traits are required and certain traits precludes you from having access to the imperial reconquest cb.

You can't be content, craven, cynical, stressed, lunatic or possessed and still have access to the religious cb.

And the requirements for the imperial reconquest are that you have to possess on of these traits, ambitious, possessed, lunatic, brave, wroth or dilligent. And you may not have any of these traits, content, craven, slothful, stressed, depressed, infirm, incapable or blinded.

Hope that helps.

 

[Lamprey]

Thanks ragbe, this helps a lot. Appreciate the quick reply. And oddly, while I usually dislike changing the game mechanics, I find myself liking this change. Makes sense. Now I can't wait to get home and confirm that my guy has one of these traits to convince myself that I'm not bugged.

 

[fairleystuff]

In PB, where the CB is taken from, there's also a 5-year cooldown on holy war. Don't know if this got implemented.

 

[Delta_Green]

Found an localisation error on Treviso, in Italy. Screenshot attached.

 

[elvain]

As I am relatively new team member, I can only comment on things I know about, for other things you need Aasmul or Axl to answer...

I don't like the oasis spots, the AI wastes a lot of time fighting over them, and it leads to insanity like the Fatimid invasions of Mali.

I like some of the Oases, but in Africa they lead to one of two things: Morocco conquering Ethiopia or Egypt conquering Mali... both of which are crazy.

I haven't gotten far enough far to do gameplay testing of the African overhaul WIP, but there are few ways taken into consideration to prevent Egypt from conquering Mali.
First of all it will be way more difficult also because the road will be twice as longer as it is in the current version, speaking about number of provinces the AI needs to pass in the direct shortcut conquest.

 

[CJL78]

do you prefer to have West Africa isolated?

yes. though I honestly would rather it's not even there, there was really only long distance trade, and one unsustained attempted invasion across the Sahara, and not by West Africans. my knowledege of it is mostly limited to my reading of ibn Battuta, but afaik there was virtually zero marriage/diplomacy between West and North Africa. At the risk of being called ethnocentric again I really don't think they are necessary for a game that is about medieval Europe/Middle East. Some tax modifiers in the North African cities where the trade routes go, representing the trade would be my ideal representation of West Africa's impact on the Med. in the time period.

That said, as long as they aren't screwing with North or East Africa/Egypt, I don't mind that West Africa is there, but the oases (at least as they are now) do just that.

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Aasmul, idk if this has been reported or not, but there is another duplicate barony, b_minden, in c_tecklenburg and c_schaumburg

 

[theKing1988]

yes. though I honestly would rather it's not even there, there was really only long distance trade, and one unsustained attempted invasion across the Sahara, and not by West Africans. my knowledege of it is mostly limited to my reading of ibn Battuta, but afaik there was virtually zero marriage/diplomacy between West and North Africa. At the risk of being called ethnocentric again I really don't think they are necessary for a game that is about medieval Europe/Middle East. Some tax modifiers in the North African cities where the trade routes go, representing the trade would be my ideal representation of West Africa's impact on the Med. in the time period.

That said, as long as they aren't screwing with North or East Africa/Egypt, I don't mind that West Africa is there, but the oases (at least as they are now) do just that.

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Aasmul, idk if this has been reported or not, but there is another duplicate barony, b_minden, in c_tecklenburg and c_schaumburg

I like the flavour of adding/fiddling with the West African setup, so i'm all for expanding that region. That being said, the current setup is not even close to being good enough to put up attrition barriers between North and South (so as to stop some crazy expansion shennanigans, when it comes to that i couldn't agree more with you). But i'm counting on your changes to help with that Elvain, so just keep working.

 

[Nocchi575]

To be completely honest anything south of Northern Africa is basically unimportant when it comes to the continent as a whole with the exception of Ethiopia. I would much rather the ugly middle African blots go away as well as the blots, or oases, in Arabia, it just plain does not look good.

 

[fairleystuff]

I should hardly think the vast riches of Mali were unimportant, the Arabs were very interested in trading with them, compared to the Ethiopians who did basically nothing but pay tribute. As for the appearance of oases, borders of actual medieval political maps tend to be sinfully ugly, though I think there should be more attrition crossing between them. If you want clean-cut chunky provinces, the vanilla map has a very different appearance.

OT: Are you the same Nocchi575 who played ss13 on tgstation?

 

[Nocchi575]

I should hardly think the vast riches of Mali were unimportant, the Arabs were very interested in trading with them, compared to the Ethiopians who did basically nothing but pay tribute. As for the appearance of oases, borders of actual medieval political maps tend to be sinfully ugly, though I think there should be more attrition crossing between them. If you want clean-cut chunky provinces, the vanilla map has a very different appearance.

OT: Are you the same Nocchi575 who played ss13 on tgstation?

1: Unimportant on a large scale, the Arab trade with Mali has absolutely no impact on the Christians and Pagans, and Christians alone outweigh the Muslims. If a player wants to play as Mali I think it would be a reason for him NOT to play that the borders he'll be looking at are ugly. We all know Paradox and their believable worlds can have some horrendously offensive borders if the AI gets frisky, but the map itself always looks nice, the oases just make it ugly without the AI's bullshit.

2: Yes, I'm still banned and I probably wouldn't come back if I got unbanned, if anything I would have to do it under a new name. But I'm still the same unstable moody bitch I was, so it'd just end up the same way.

 

[elvain]

yes. though I honestly would rather it's not even there, there was really only long distance trade, and one unsustained attempted invasion across the Sahara, and not by West Africans. my knowledege of it is mostly limited to my reading of ibn Battuta, but afaik there was virtually zero marriage/diplomacy between West and North Africa. At the risk of being called ethnocentric again I really don't think they are necessary for a game that is about medieval Europe/Middle East. Some tax modifiers in the North African cities where the trade routes go, representing the trade would be my ideal representation of West Africa's impact on the Med. in the time period.

That said, as long as they aren't screwing with North or East Africa/Egypt, I don't mind that West Africa is there, but the oases (at least as they are now) do just that.

1: Unimportant on a large scale, the Arab trade with Mali has absolutely no impact on the Christians and Pagans, and Christians alone outweigh the Muslims. If a player wants to play as Mali I think it would be a reason for him NOT to play that the borders he'll be looking at are ugly. We all know Paradox and their believable worlds can have some horrendously offensive borders if the AI gets frisky, but the map itself always looks nice, the oases just make it ugly without the AI's bullshit.

Sorry, guys, I have no intention to offend you, but I must say you are not right.

There was large impact of West Africa on the Mediterranean world between 8/9th and at least 14th century.

CLJ is partly right that the influence was mainly economic and the diplomatic relations did not include many extensive wars or such things. Though there were stable contacts even on diplomatic level and it did have impact on Maghrebians in general. The various North African dynasties were able to gain independence from the caliphs thanks to the constant flow of gold across the Sahara. Mahghreb itself was pretty poor.

Spoiler

Most of the gold of the Mediterrean world from Egypt to France came there accross the Sahara, The Fatimids managed to conquer Africa (and Egypt) thanks to their control over trans-Saharan trade, significant source of the richies of al-Andalus was the gold of Bambuk. The times of political turmoil on one side of the Sahara were usually accompaigned with political instability on the other. Instability in Maghreb was important for Iberian christians, as it gave them advantage against al-Andalus. So don't tell me that the impact of West Africa was close to zero

The Almoravid movement was based in West Africa and the Sahara and there were stable diplomatic relations between states on the 2 sides of the Sahara. Ibn Battuta, for obvious reasons, did not know it as he was a traveller. Ibn Khaldun is a different story and I wonder why would he bother with compiling Malian genealogy if the political contacts were as limited as CLJ claims, based on Ibn Battuta?

That said, West Africa had much larger impact on the Mediterrean and Christian world than i.e. Ethiopia. With respect to your wish for this region not to be included, we will add it to add flavour. Just like we have Central Asia or Arabia and Ethiopia since the first release of CK2. I can promise that I (and the whole team) will do the best to have the region not allow easy conquest and the Sahara to disallow easy controll of trans-Saharan empires.

 

[Evander]

then I hope you will like this current stage of West African duchies:

Spoiler

Dang it ! It will become so much interesting to play a west african character !

I fear, however, that so many provinces will give too much power to Mali/Ghana. Have you tried some hands-off runs to see how AI's doing ?

 

[Aasmul]

Found a few more familytree bugs in some of the dynasties of Venice.

The Contarini has one unconnected man in their familytree. To make him connect you need to add father=167594 to 7800 which is the first entry in the italian_venetian.txt.

The Faliero have 3 unconnected men in their familytree. To make this work, you need to add father=167583 to 7804 in the italian_venetian.txt. You also need to add father=7804 or father=167584 (whoever the correct father is) to 7808 in the italian_venetian.txt.

The Morosini have quite a large number of unconnected familymembers. Luckily this can be easily corrected by adding father=182009 to 20380 in the croatian.txt.

Thanks^^ I better start makeing a complete list of all the bugs needs cleaning

According to history in the second half of XI century (to the time of the First Crusade) strongest maritime republic in the Mediterranean Sea was Amalfi. It was also time of Geata "gold age", and the Ragusa establishment. Republic of Ancona was established soon after that.
But I don't see any of them in swmh+.

So, I made for mayself (based on your map) four more playable republics: Ragusa, Amalfi, Ancona and Gaeta with historical patrician families (but without coa). All are on duchy trier (titular duchies). Amalfi and Gaeta are independent (as in real in 1066), Ragusa and Ancona are vassals (an Emperor and King of Croatia respectively). All new republics families have their own trade posts. As a result, now playing a Pisa, Genoa or Venice is much more challenging. Game is still balanced.

Maybe you want to try it, and incorporate it to your mod in a future?

May I publish it as a separate sub-mod of swmh+?

shure go ahead^^
Currently Ancona, Ragusa/dubrovhnik and Amalfi is the only planned republics for the south(also adding Zeta as one might be crowding the adriatic to much)
I don't think its viable to add Gaeta in 1066 it would better function as a tradepost for Amalfi IMO. Amalfi should be vassal of Salerno btw and not independent(its the reason I made the princiaplity of Salerno King tier when we update for 1.09) and afterwards it should go to the kingdom of Siciliy, until the point where Pisa takes them out.
We got plans for six more republic in the north and the three more in south for next version.

k_york needs its creation conditions updated, it's using an outdated culture. I also think the orange color is weird and wrong, and the raven should be black.

yep not the prettiest raven in the world, will see if I can work out somthing better after we have gotten the new provinces in place.

Has anyone formed the Roman Empire with this mod installed? I'm trying to do so, and I'm running into a problem where the game doesn't recognize that I completely control the Duchy of Jerusalem. It recognizes all the others, but not that one. It might be a separate issue, but just checking.

I will take a look asap and see if I can find any bugs.

yes. though I honestly would rather it's not even there, there was really only long distance trade, and one unsustained attempted invasion across the Sahara, and not by West Africans. my knowledege of it is mostly limited to my reading of ibn Battuta, but afaik there was virtually zero marriage/diplomacy between West and North Africa. At the risk of being called ethnocentric again I really don't think they are necessary for a game that is about medieval Europe/Middle East. Some tax modifiers in the North African cities where the trade routes go, representing the trade would be my ideal representation of West Africa's impact on the Med. in the time period.

That said, as long as they aren't screwing with North or East Africa/Egypt, I don't mind that West Africa is there, but the oases (at least as they are now) do just that.

--------

Aasmul, idk if this has been reported or not, but there is another duplicate barony, b_minden, in c_tecklenburg and c_schaumburg

Thanks^^

Something I noticed on the project synergy thread, but since the map and history of that mod merger originates from SWMH, I posted it here too.

Besides IIRC in a much older version of this mod I had a similar question.

thats was due to some history files from saxon england and all those has been removed(and there won't be any part of that mod left at all, after we get Axl's England implemented^^)

Something on a somewhat related note, maybe Scottish could be split in Gaelic Scots and under the right (Scotto-Norman) influence Lowland Scots, which would be more like the vanilla list; IMHO the current naming list works at early starts, but in a late start (reign of the house of Bruce and already the late Canmores (David I) onwards) it becomes somewhat probematic for at least the Lowland areas.

I don't think there will be culture changes for this version, but its a good candidate for the version after where we polish the new additions.

 

[theKing1988]

Dang it ! It will become so much interesting to play a west african character !

I fear, however, that so many provinces will give too much power to Mali/Ghana. Have you tried some hands-off runs to see how AI's doing ?

I'm pretty sure that most of the land will be pagan, and quite a few of the rulers will be pagan too, so they would have a hard time holding on to any conquests up north. (The Vanilla setup of having Islam be almost an established thing in West Africa in the mid 11th Century is very far from the truth).

Plus, quite a few extra desert provinces with a very low attrition bar will now seperate the north and the south, which will make cross-saharan warfare perilous and unlikely to succeed unless you are big enough to be able to handle the attrition.

 

[Evander]

Then (maybe it's already incuded) the holy war cb for muslim gainst african pagan can be deleted to represent the fact that maghrebian ruler would never go cross the sahara to take the gold that already flows to the north. That would hold the north from taking the Mali.

 

[theKing1988]

Then (maybe it's already incuded) the holy war cb for muslim gainst african pagan can be deleted to represent the fact that maghrebian ruler would never go cross the sahara to take the gold that already flows to the north. That would hold the north from taking the Mali.

It sounds like a good idea, hopefully Aasmul will implement it.

 

[fairleystuff]

lexoneir: Make sure you aren't missing any barony-tier titles, sometimes they float around independent.