[MOD] Terra Mariana

[SlyEcho]

Terra Mariana

Also known as Old Livonia, Terra Mariana corresponds roughly to the areas of today's Estonia and Latvia. My main motivation to this mod was the fact that I didn't like the way Estonia and Livonia were split between Finland and Lithuania in the vanilla game. As theocracies cannot craete kingdoms, I believe it won't affect the Teutonic Order at a later start date.

So I added another de jure kingdom between Finland and Lithuania composed of the duchies of Estonia, Livonia and Courland. The county of Daugava was joined into Livonia. Vodi was removed from Estonia and put into Finland. There are some other changes in Rus and Poland too to make borders smoother.

The coat of arms is just a simple argent, a cross sable. It uses a copy of the file for the Breton band mercenaries.

Another significant change in this mod is the inclusion of the Estonian culture which replaces the made-up and completely not-real culture called Ugric Baltic (whatever that is supposed to mean). It includes a set of names that are supposedly old Estonian names (i.e. pre-christian). I also changed the culture of the local rulers in the history files.

If you have any suggestions, I would be glad to hear them.

Personally, I think these points need to be addressed too:

• Adding the Livonian culture.
• I don't know much about the Baltic tribes (Latvians), so if you have any ideas to improve the Latgalian culture, let me know.
• Any other culture that needs to be added.
• Changing the province borders, and names.
• Revising all the names of the baronies. I know some of them are wrong but that is a lot of work.
• Adding political entities and history files for pre-Crusade dates.
• Other language translations, currently the texts are only in English.

Download here: View attachment mariana_1.04.zip

Compatible with v1.04, checksum should be KIQK.

Here's the version with Podlachia and Prussia in Poland: View attachment mariana_1.04c_1.zip

Compatible with v1.04c, checksum should be ETAZ.

 

[rafek]

Very interesting mod, thank you!

 

[Tsar Monarchist]

Compatible with v1.04, checksum should be KIQK.

Hey, I was just worried if you uploaded it, but you did it! Most people can't play without some CK2+ or BGA mods, and I can't just play without yours If only could someone implement it to other map modifications, it would be great.

Also, I thought about some new modifications... It would be nice to add new de jure Duchy of Podlasie (Podlasie + Jacwiez -> renamed to Grodno to be more historical), as a part of the Kingdom of Lithuania.

 

[SlyEcho]

It's great to know someone appreciates my work! The way I have set up my system makes it easy to upgrade to a new version, so you won't have to worry about that.

Of course I'm more than welcome to allow anyone to merge my work into their own mods if they like. The proper Estonian culture for instance can be used for other mods even if they don't like my de jure borders. If you'd like me to merge in changes from other mods, maybe I can take a look at them.

I'k take a look at the duchies you mentioned. If you have any suggestions to improve the areas of Poland and Lithuania, it is most welcome, since the mod touches those areas.

 

[chatnoir17]

I would like to include Terra Mariana as a titular Kingdom into my Hanseatic League Mod. The Baltic region needs more love.

 

[Tsar Monarchist]

Hey! Were you thinking about my earlier proposal? I was working on it, and found some new ideas to your mod:
- (as before) new duchy of Podlachia, with provinces Podlasie and Jacwiez (renamed to Grodno), as a part of de iure kingdom of Lithuania
- new kingdom of Galicia-Volhynia (duchies of Volhynia, Galich, Turov and Moldau)

Others:
- probably Galicia-Volhynia should be creatable only for non-russian rulers (hungarian and polish), and also, with 1.05 patch it could be titular instead of de iure...
- IMO duchy of Prussia shouldn't be part of Lithuania (and any other kingdom), so maybe could be added to Poland instead? Duchy of Samogitia need to stay as it is
- I still don't know how to rename Sudovia, as this name, with Yatvagi and Jacwiez means all the same (but in different languages)

 

[SlyEcho]

I'm waiting to see how 1.05 changes things.

But your suggestions are welcome.

 

[Aasmul]

Would you consider collaborating? I have done quite a sweping change to the CK2 map and de jure compostion(includeing the baltic) but I would love to give the baltic a greater workaround http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?599550-MOD-SWMH-2.0-Map-de-jure-and-general-history-mod.-For-a-superior-CK2-experience

 

[Closet Skeleton]

- IMO duchy of Prussia shouldn't be part of Lithuania, so maybe could be added to Poland instead? Duchy of Samogitia need to stay as it is

Prussia should be in lithuania culturally (baltic culture group). Would be in Poland after 1525, not before.

I'd personally throw in a de jure duchy of yatvagi (titular chiefdom already in game) made up of jacweiz, sudova and yatvagi. Problem is that then you get two province mazovia and two province lituania. Maybe move galinda into mazovia, but then you get 2 provinces prussia unless you put chelmo in to replace it (ruled by prussians at start of game anyway) which brings pommeralia down to 2 but that puts it even with pomerania. I'd put saarema into estonia to replace the lost vodi.

Zhmud means pretty much the same thing as samogitia and would be better in there than yatvagi but would be better if it could be chopped up since otherwise lithuania gets diced.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithuania_Minor

Going by that map the duchy of samogotia in game isn't anywhere near over-lapping with the samogotians.

 

[Tsar Monarchist]

Prussia should be in lithuania culturally (baltic culture group). Would be in Poland after 1525, not before.

Shouldn't be in any kingdom before 1525, so Poland is historically closer, but I agree about the culture. Prussia is a territory that was always a potential direction for polish expansion. Mazurians moved there in XIV century from Masovia. History is linking it with Poland early enough, not like with Lithuania (connections with Yatvagi, yes - but not Prussia).

And you're right about Samogitia.
As I mentioned, provinces of Yatvagi, Jacwiez and Sudovia means the same, named after a tribe living there. But province of Jacwiez should be Grodno, and Sudovia with Trakai? it's definitely part of Lithuania. So we only have Yatvagi. And, basing on CK1, Galindia could be a part of Yatvagian duchy, what means to have two 2-provincial duchies of Prussia and Yatvagi. For me, Chelmno could also be a part of Prussia, which would help in here (moving this problem to Pomeralia, not so problematic).

 

[SlyEcho]

I wouldn't worry about having duchies that have too many or too many counties. That can be sorted out later by adding new provinces.

I did create the duchy of Podlachia as suggested. It seems that Paradox had considered it as well since there are flag files d_podlasie.tga and d_podlasia.tga in the gfx folder. Also the CoA of Jacwiez in the vanilla was the actual modern CoA of Hrodna (Grodno), so Paradox were getting close there as well.

I am also thinking remaking the CoA too. A lot of them seem to be copied from CK1 with the wood texture cooked in and others don't seem that good. A lot are from the modern era, not medieval times.

I also put Prussia into Poland and added Chelmno to them. I am thinking about adding the kingdom of Prussia to avoid splitting it up between Lithuania and Poland. But with the next patch it may not be necessary as I can add it as a titular title.

This how the kingdom view is now:


I still haven't touched Yatvyagi yet. I think maybe getting rid of the duchy of Lithuania is one solution and creating other duchies in Lithuania. It is redundant anyway, and the king title could be designated 'Grand Duke'.

I also changed some province names in Livonia.

EDIT: The version in the OP is still the old version. I'll try to get a new version for you as soon as I can.
EDIT 2: I uploaded a new version so you can test it during the weekend.

 

[Closet Skeleton]

Shouldn't be in any kingdom before 1525, so Poland is historically closer, but I agree about the culture. Prussia is a territory that was always a potential direction for polish expansion. Mazurians moved there in XIV century from Masovia. History is linking it with Poland early enough, not like with Lithuania (connections with Yatvagi, yes - but not Prussia).

I prefer having Prussia in a kingdom that doesn't exist at the start, which is why I'd rather it go into lithuania since after patch 1.05 pommerania won't be in Poland either and both will end up in Poland anyway if Poland takes them get enough of de jure to create the kingdom.

 

[Tsar Monarchist]

I am thinking about adding the kingdom of Prussia to avoid splitting it up between Lithuania and Poland. But with the next patch it may not be necessary as I can add it as a titular title.

Kingdom of Prussia (or actually -> in Prussia) is more ahistorical in this time period (created in XVIII century, only because "Kingdom of Brandenburg" wouldn't pass), even more than having it as a part of the Lithuanian kingdom.

I still haven't touched Yatvyagi yet. I think maybe getting rid of the duchy of Lithuania is one solution and creating other duchies in Lithuania. It is redundant anyway, and the king title could be designated 'Grand Duke'.

There's a problem with Lithuanian kingdom-tier title. There was only one crowned king (Mindaugas I), and next tries in XV century (Vytautas) and XX century (german duke Wilhelm von Urach, as Mindaugas II). And dukes of Lithuania were always titling themselves as 'grand dukes'.
So probably should be two titles: de iure grand dukes and titulat kings.

 

[SlyEcho]

Wasn't the King in Prussia title about the kingdom being outside the HRE but still being a vassal of the HRE? The more I think about it, the more I like the solution to put Prussia in its own kingdom. But what duchies would comprise it? Just the duchy of Prussia alone?

I like your suggestion of the grand duke title being de jure and the king title being titular.

 

[Tsar Monarchist]

Wasn't the King in Prussia title about the kingdom being outside the HRE but still being a vassal of the HRE?

Yes, it was, but only because elector of Brandenburg couldn't be a king inside the HRE, so he took the title from the outside.

The more I think about it, the more I like the solution to put Prussia in its own kingdom. But what duchies would comprise it? Just the duchy of Prussia alone?

Probably, but as you said - it's hard to create a kingdom with only one, 3 or 4-provincial duchy inside it's de iure realm.

I like your suggestion of the grand duke title being de jure and the king title being titular.

Nice idea for 1.05 patch changes

 

[Closet Skeleton]

Wasn't the King in Prussia title about the kingdom being outside the HRE but still being a vassal of the HRE? The more I think about it, the more I like the solution to put Prussia in its own kingdom. But what duchies would comprise it? Just the duchy of Prussia alone?

The title of King 'in' Prussia had nothng to do with the HRE. Prussia itself was chosen due to being outside of the HRE, but the limitation to 'in' was due to the existance of 'royal prussia' which was part of the Polish crown. Royal prussia would be the in game provinces of chelmo, marienburg and danzig while ducal prussia ('ostprussen') would be sambia, galinda, memel and scalovia.

Frederick the Great obtained 'royal prussia' in the first partition of Poland, thus could drop the annoying 'in Prussia' thing that had made his predecessors a joke in the courts of europe but still couldn't be king of brandenburg due to the HRE and his realm was often refered to still as Brandenburg-Prussia. By the time the HRE was disolved at the start of the 19th century, 'Prussia' had become a 'brand name' for the Hohenzollerns so there wasn't any need to take advantage of their new freedom to be 'kings of brandenburg' if they wanted to.

 

[SlyEcho]

So, basically speaking in CK2 terms, the title King in Prussia was a titular title because Poland didn't want them to have de jure claims over the parts of Prussia that Poland controlled?

I don't really see a reason to model this in the game though. It was after all changed after wars were fought with Poland, so you could say they did after all have de jure claims over Royal Prussia.

 

[Tsar Monarchist]

The title of King 'in' Prussia had nothing to do with the HRE.

Except it was taken by the elector of the HRE And nowadays is usually referred to the territory of Brandenburg, Vorpommern, etc. I read lastly in other discussion that PI shouldn't create Kingdom of Pommerania in patch 1.05, but... Kingdom of Prussia, as more historical! Strange thing, don't you think?

All you have written here is a pure fact, but still Kingdom of Prussia (or in Prussia, doesn't matter) was created because Hohenzollerns couldn't create any kingdom title inside the HRE. And it happened not until the XVIII century. So that's why I argue that duchy of Prussia shouldn't be referred here, in Middle Ages, as a single kingdom, but as a part of the other - Poland or Lithuania. I personally prefer Poland, as it has more connections with it than with Lithuania (except cultural connections).

- - - - - - - - - - - - - -

So, basically speaking in CK2 terms, the title King in Prussia was a titular title because Poland didn't want them to have de jure claims over the parts of Prussia that Poland controlled?

Basically - yes. I was some more complicated, but now I don't remember all that story.

But territory of Pomerelia became known as Prussia while the reign of Teutonic Order. And after the treaty in 1466 Poland had taken this territory - so polish part of such Prussia was called Royal. And when in 1525 Grand Master of Teutonic Order became a duke of Prussia, eastern part became Ducal.

So after the XIV century territory of Prussia was known as bigger, and thanks to Hohenzollerns and their kingdom it has spread to northern Germany. That's why any kingdom-tier title referred to Prussia is a bad idea - it's much more related with later history than 1066. Better for EU3, not for CK2.



I would really like to have a separate kingdom for Prussia, but it's too much ahistorical in this time period.

 

[SlyEcho]

Well, the thing is, when 1.05 comes then the territory can become part of any kingdom that owns it.

 

[Robmel]

Prussia is a territory that was always a potential direction for polish expansion.

It was the same for the Lithuanians.

Mazurians moved there in XIV century from Masovia.

They weren't the only ones moving in. Curonians and Lithuanians too in respective adjacent regions.

History is linking it with Poland early enough, not like with Lithuania (connections with Yatvagi, yes - but not Prussia).

How exactly?
Historically wise there were two occasions when Lithuanians claimed Prussia. 1. During negations with emperor Karl IV in the middle 14th century. 2. By Vytautas who considered Prussia his patrimony and claimed it all except for Czelmno land.