Developer Diary 20 – The Mongols

[unmerged(31881)]

Is it possible to submit to the Mongols?

For me this is the most important question.

...

As an aside, creating a vassals and tribute is pretty much the extent of power in CK2.

Five or ten more years between one succession and the next might well have seen a lot more of Europe incorporated as a vassal of the Horde. Golden, Ilkhanate, or ideally, even a unified Mongol ulus. That was what stopped their surge westward - it wasn't that they had conquered a world-spanning empire just because they had never encountered a fort, a forest, or a Pole.
:rofl:

 

[Lord Strange]

The devs have failed to answer a pressing question:

How many boards will the Mongol horde hoard if the Mongol horde gets bored?

 

[Secret Master]

The DD makes it clear that the initial invasion force does not auto-reinforce, so that once they run out, they have to act like a normal realm.

Some follow-up questions:

1) In CK1, the Mongols would keep reappearing if you annexed them until the death date set in the event files. Will this also be the case in CK2?

2) In CK1, the Hordes would also sometimes get additional reinforcements from the east (new units on the map spawned in by event) if they were running out of troops. Is this no longer the case?

3) Given the either/or nature of Mongol invasions in CK1 (either they annex the map or fail to accomplish much at all), will it be possible to pay them off or become a client state?

4) In the preview, I've been able to arrange low-level marriages between Mongol courtiers and my own. Will high level marriages (of the kind that will result in an alliance) be possible in some way?

 

[Orinsul]

could there a difficulty setting for them so you set at the start of the game how severe they might be?
so if you want you can have them nigh-unstoppable?

 

[Nimic]

could there a difficulty setting for them so you set at the start of the game how severe they might be?
so if you want you can have them nigh-unstoppable?

Almost certainly not.

 

[Frezzin]

Raids - yes. Permanent military presence, and direct incorporation into Horde's demesne - no. IMO Mongol demesne should be limited to actual steppes - otherwise they couldn't sustain large amounts of horses to feed. Yes - they could ride deep into Europe, but only to vassilse/create tributaries - not to create centralised empire of horse-lords controlling 2/3 of Europe.

Historically they raided deep into Poland, Hungary and Russia, but their demsne (to use game terms) remained on actual steppes, previously controlled by oter nomads (Cumans, Pechenegs). They couldn't permanently control urbanised and fortified areas with forested/hilly terrain, and so they were content with just getting regular tribute from local rulers (Rus').

In fairness, horses can exist anywhere there is land to support them. Look at the mongol's invasions of China and India. Honestly, I don't think it would have been that hard for them to hold deeper demense.

I think what you're positing is that, logistically speaking, the steppes were their limit. I would disagree with that since if that were the case, they never would have successfully conquered the Great Wall, invaded China, India, etc, etc. Don't under-estimate the versatility and adaptability of the horde! hehe

 

[GuileMike]

Man, this game keeps getting better and better! Thanks for this update King!

 

[Orinsul]

Almost certainly not.

Eu3 as seperate difficulty values for colonists and spies and discovery speed. itd probably be a simply thing to have the size of mongol hordes starting be decided on mongol difficult rather than general difficultly as in CK.
Or in lou of that, im sure the CK cheat of triggering the reinforcements event by hand for them so they start off with more would work just as well. Probably itd work better as in CK if you did that too much itd make the game slow almost to a standstill, but theyd conquer everything but britain so thats ok.

 

[HolisticGod]

King,

Ah, very good news, then. Evidently, this was obvious from past diaries, but thanks for the quick reply.

 

[kingsword]

I really have to say that I don't like this randomness factor in their appearance. They were by far the most interesting combat challenge in the game. It really worries me, I most probably would rage if I missed either of the hordes in my game. Is there any chance that we can mod their emergence to be certain?

 

[Dorevai]

I'm sure. And it sounds like an incredibly small chance they won't show, just so as to avoid determinism. I'm curious if that chance reflects the muslim push into Asia through Persia.

 

[eliphas8]

I really have to say that I don't like this randomness factor in their appearance. They were by far the most interesting combat challenge in the game. It really worries me, I most probably would rage if I missed either of the hordes in my game. Is there any chance that we can mod their emergence to be certain?

If you start after they showed up they will be there so its not that big a problem.

 

[airpirate]

I really have to say that I don't like this randomness factor in their appearance. They were by far the most interesting combat challenge in the game. It really worries me, I most probably would rage if I missed either of the hordes in my game. Is there any chance that we can mod their emergence to be certain?

Of course you could, the Mongol appearance events appear to be events like any other. Just change the MTTH to 1 or some other small number and make the end date for the events 1453 (actually this step probably isn't needed if you have a low MTTH). There, now the hordes will always appear.

 

[Orinsul]

I really have to say that I don't like this randomness factor in their appearance. They were by far the most interesting combat challenge in the game. It really worries me, I most probably would rage if I missed either of the hordes in my game. Is there any chance that we can mod their emergence to be certain?

If in doubt you could always ~ event ##### with the cheats to get some mongols if the games failed to give you any or the ones it gave you were rubbish and got beaten back by the cumans.

 

[Alerias]

Agreed it wouldnt be the same without the Mongols.

I'm hoping they'll be strong enough to have a chance of doing better than historically and plowing past Poland and Hungary and threaten the Empire.

 

[Orinsul]

Agreed it wouldnt be the same without the Mongols.

I'm hoping they'll be strong enough to have a chance of doing better than historically and plowing past Poland and Hungary and threaten the Empire.

i always loved it in Ck when they to paris from both sides. but i wouldnt want that to be likely all the time. but a 1/25 for two unstoppable hordes to sweep the map clean would be fun

 

[Alerias]

Agreed. Ideally this shouldnt happen because hordes are totally OP once in awhile but rather because European realms are in worse shape than usual and fight poorly.

This way mongol conquest could be a great 'game over' when the key players in Europe spent too much time on intrigue and too little building their realm's infrastructure, tech and especially military.

The problem of course is that its damn hard to make the hordes something that could challenge France without making them an instant game over for the best Byzantium in the world.

 

[Orinsul]

The problem of course is that its damn hard to make the hordes something that could challenge France without making them an instant game over for the best Byzantium in the world.

Thats where a 'mongol difficulty = none/light/normal/hard/crazy hard/destroyers of the world' in the settings would have a use
if youre going to play scotland but still want them to threaten to instant game over you, choose the last one.

 

[Neoptolemos]

In fairness, horses can exist anywhere there is land to support them. Look at the mongol's invasions of China and India. Honestly, I don't think it would have been that hard for them to hold deeper demense.

I think what you're positing is that, logistically speaking, the steppes were their limit. I would disagree with that since if that were the case, they never would have successfully conquered the Great Wall, invaded China, India, etc, etc. Don't under-estimate the versatility and adaptability of the horde! hehe

Well, I'm wondering then if there shouldn't be some sort of hard limit imposed. Last year I read Yaacov Lev's dissertation published by Brill, and though it's mostly crap he cites at length a generally accepted theory that Syria lacks the pasturage to have fed a Mongol army. They could subsist on fodder they transported with them for a month, maybe six weeks, but the fact that beasts of burden also have mouths to feed puts a hard limit on how far that could go.

Several authors, including Lev, have argued that this was the key to Mamluk dominance in the Levant. The Mongols couldn't sustain a campaign long enough to win total victory in the field against them, let alone penetrate Egypt. Chances are, there's no need to model this in game, but it is food for thought and avoids the weird breed of "great man" hypotheses that credit a few brave nations with turning back the scourge.

 

[Orinsul]

The Turk, steppes nomads like the mongols with close tactics and blood, conquered Syria and Persia lacked the pasturage but still got mongoled. The Turk and the Hun all the other waves out of the steppes lay precedent for the mongols being able to go pretty much anywhere given conditions and desire to do so.
The mongols didnt conquer everything because the didnt. We cant say theyd have failed to take germany because they didnt try so we dont know. They might have, and thats what the game is about, might haves
Itd be best just to heave the conquests to how they conquer, not place arbitrary restrictions on them.