"Requires a 3rd party download and account"

[steveh11]

I just found out, fortunately before parting with my money, that Sword of the Stars II requires a Steam account.

I immediately stopped the process and will not proceed with the order.

Simple question: What other upcoming games are Paradox planning on publishing via Steam only? I want to know so that I won't waste my time on them.

Steve.

 

[InsulaBarataria]

Hi. Just wanted to say that this is also very important to me. Sadly, I've already preordered the game.

 

[unmerged(165900)]

Hi,

the decision to go Steam only was made unusually late for this project. We will make an effort to make the call sooner for future projects, so you can decide for yourself.

On the decision itself, the choice to go Steam only was made by the devs. Development time is a crucial resource for a small and dedicated game studio like Kerberos. Building and supporting several versions of a game is more work than is seems. Steam has a number of features that appeal to Kerberos from a development, testing and delivery standpoint. Ultimately, going Steam only was found to be the best way to keep the game up to date for everyone, leaving precious time for game development.

Cheers,
Mattias

 

[Johan]

I just found out, fortunately before parting with my money, that Sword of the Stars II requires a Steam account.

I immediately stopped the process and will not proceed with the order.

Simple question: What other upcoming games are Paradox planning on publishing via Steam only? I want to know so that I won't waste my time on them.

Steve.

Whats wrong with a Steam account?

The game will still be without DRM unless the developer wants it on. If no DRM is turned on, the game will work exactly like it would if anyone else had sold it.

 

[Weijun]

Whats wrong with a Steam account?

The game will still be without DRM unless the developer wants it on. If no DRM is turned on, the game will work exactly like it would if anyone else had sold it.

It looks like this will be one Paradox game I will not buy either.

To go into "offline mode" one must run the game online through Steam's software first. How is that different from activation? I have read through Steam's forums and noticed that a number of users have difficulty getting their accounts into "offline mode." This seems to be a particular problem if one does not switch modes in advance. If there are any problems with the Internet connection or if one takes a laptop on a plane, then there is little he can do.

Put simply, Steam's default mode (game will not load without running their 3rd party software) is DRM. That it will not work without connecting to the Internet makes it intrusive DRM. That one can opt out manually, game by game, does not make it much more palatable. I want games that have no DRM in the first place, not ones where I have to jump through hoops to deactivate intrusive software.

 

[Johan]

It looks like this will be one Paradox game I will not buy either.

To go into "offline mode" one must run the game online through Steam's software first. How is that different from activation? I have read through Steam's forums and noticed that a number of users have difficulty getting their accounts into "offline mode." This seems to be a particular problem if one does not switch modes in advance. If there are any problems with the Internet connection or if one takes a laptop on a plane, then there is little he can do.

Put simply, Steam's default mode (game will not load without running their 3rd party software) is DRM. That it will not work without connecting to the Internet makes it intrusive DRM. That one can opt out manually, game by game, does not make it much more palatable. I want games that have no DRM in the first place, not ones where I have to jump through hoops to deactivate intrusive software.

Thats not how everything works on Steam. Most developers turn on the steam drm because its convenient and works and is not super-intrusive compared to other things in the world..

I just said there is NO drm whatsoever on a steam game if a developer elects it to not have it.

Take Sengoku as an example. You can buy it at Steam and after installing it, you can play it without even running steam ever again. There is no difference between a Sengoku bought at Steam or GG.

Now I do NOT know how Sots2 works, but I do know that I turned off the drm on Victoria 2 in some early patch when I knew how it worked.


Steam is NOT a DRM, unless a developer wants it to be.

 

[Romtos]

Whats wrong with a Steam account?

Nothing wrong with having an account. GamersGate needs one as well.

There is no difference between a Sengoku bought at Steam or GG.

GamersGate is simply much more friendly in its installing process. No 3rd part software needed. Just a little non-intrusive .exe
Some people just prefer that. Besides, there's the thing of having all your games at one vendor. That is not necessarily Steam.


Just throwing in the usual arguments.

 

[Weijun]

Thats not how everything works on Steam. Most developers turn on the steam drm because its convenient and works and is not super-intrusive compared to other things in the world..

I just said there is NO drm whatsoever on a steam game if a developer elects it to not have it.

Take Sengoku as an example. You can buy it at Steam and after installing it, you can play it without even running steam ever again. There is no difference between a Sengoku bought at Steam or GG.

Now I do NOT know how Sots2 works, but I do know that I turned off the drm on Victoria 2 in some early patch when I knew how it worked.


Steam is NOT a DRM, unless a developer wants it to be.

Steam provides minimal digital rights management (DRM) for software titles, by providing "Custom Executable Generation" for executable files that are unique for each user, but allow that user to install the software on multiple computing devices via Steam or through software backups without limitations. As such, the user is required to have started Steam while connected to the Internet for authentication prior to playing a game, or have previously set up Steam in an "offline" mode while connected online, storing their credentials locally to play without an Internet connection. Steam's DRM is available through Steamworks to software developers, but the service allows developers and publishers to include other forms of DRM on top of Steam.

As a developer, how do you bypass this?

 

[s1234567890m]

As a developer, how do you bypass this?

its probably NDA stuff,

 

[steveh11]

Thanks, Mattias. Well, the developers made their choice.

I have made mine.

 

[steveh11]

Whats wrong with a Steam account?

The game will still be without DRM unless the developer wants it on. If no DRM is turned on, the game will work exactly like it would if anyone else had sold it.

If no DRM is turned on it's no problem to sell through other routes though? So why go Steam only?

I've seen you defend Steam on other occasions, Johan. I'm not interested though, I simply don't want what I see as another intrusive app on my machine. I have a Gamersgate account, and an Amazon one. They are, in order, my "vehicles of choice" for buying games. I will not buy through Steam.

You can criticise me for being irrational if you like, but that doesn't translate into an order. If Kerberos/Paradox change their stance, this would no longer be an obstacle. I note that I'm not alone in this.

Steve.

 

[s1234567890m]

If no DRM is turned on it's no problem to sell through other routes though? So why go Steam only?

I've seen you defend Steam on other occasions, Johan. I'm not interested though, I simply don't want what I see as another intrusive app on my machine. I have a Gamersgate account, and an Amazon one. They are, in order, my "vehicles of choice" for buying games. I will not buy through Steam.

You can criticise me for being irrational if you like, but that doesn't translate into an order. If Kerberos/Paradox change their stance, this would no longer be an obstacle. I note that I'm not alone in this.

Steve.

http://www.kerberos-productions.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=37&t=21517
this is why

 

[Johan]

If no DRM is turned on it's no problem to sell through other routes though? So why go Steam only?

Its because every portal has their own installers and system for downloading games/patches.

Its simple... Its more time spent on fixing bugs, improving ai and adding features. As well as more frequent patches.

This does not even consider the fact that Steam will auto-patch and make sure your version is not corrupted, which reduces support costs even further.

When we cater to multiple versions (and there were 23 different portals we sold games on, last time I checked), this cuts into development time quite a lot.

Now Kerberos is a developer that has about 2-3 times as many developers per project as our internal teams does, so you can imagine how beneficient it would be for our team.

Magicka had patches out everyday for weeks after release. We could NEVER do that on a non-steam title..

Sengoku, having 3 patches within 1.5 months of release, cost enormous amount of time and money for us for things that did not give anything back to us. About 90% of all who bought Sengoku digitally bought it through Steam, while we had to spend about 99% of the time for patch deployment and testing for non-steam customers.

 

[Johan]

I've seen you defend Steam on other occasions, Johan. I'm not interested though, I simply don't want what I see as another intrusive app on my machine. I have a Gamersgate account, and an Amazon one. They are, in order, my "vehicles of choice" for buying games. I will not buy through Steam.

If you buy a steam-only product through Gamersgate, you will not buy it through Steam.

 

[steveh11]

If you buy a steam-only product through Gamersgate, you will not buy it through Steam.

But I'd have to open a Steam account, install their program, and download the game from there. Simply, I don't want to do that.

Its because every portal has their own installers and system for downloading games/patches.

Its simple... Its more time spent on fixing bugs, improving ai and adding features. As well as more frequent patches.

This does not even consider the fact that Steam will auto-patch and make sure your version is not corrupted, which reduces support costs even further.

When we cater to multiple versions (and there were 23 different portals we sold games on, last time I checked), this cuts into development time quite a lot.

Now Kerberos is a developer that has about 2-3 times as many developers per project as our internal teams does, so you can imagine how beneficient it would be for our team.

Magicka had patches out everyday for weeks after release. We could NEVER do that on a non-steam title..

Sengoku, having 3 patches within 1.5 months of release, cost enormous amount of time and money for us for things that did not give anything back to us. About 90% of all who bought Sengoku digitally bought it through Steam, while we had to spend about 99% of the time for patch deployment and testing for non-steam customers.

But you normally develop and post beta-patches here on the forum, which I d/l and use, only updating - via the game's own launcher - after the beta's final release.

Are you suggesting that Paradox intends to go Steam-only for it's internal titles, Johan?

 

[Murmurandus]

I agree Steam is evöl. Since I started buying through Steam I have more games than time. It's a conspiracy I say.

I also want to add on a more serious note that the Steam Application isn't that bad. If it allows less of other DRM-methods I'm happy to have it.

 

[Johan]

But you normally develop and post beta-patches here on the forum, which I d/l and use, only updating - via the game's own launcher - after the beta's final release.

And all of this creates alot of extra hassle for the large majority of our customers. We've gone from Steam being a small minority to being the biggest chunk of the customer base. This is from who registers at forums and buys the game from pre-orders and day #1 sales.

I wouldn't be surprised if beta-patches and such will be steam-only, and then final patches will be for all.

 

[RedRalphWiggum]

While I'm not absolutely wild about Steam, if it means more time and money can go into development and we see a corresponding improvement in games, it's not going to kill me to have to load up Steam.

 

[Romtos]

it's not going to kill me to have to load up Steam.

In all fairness, there's a lot of terrible, terrible things which won't kill you.

 

[Weijun]

And all of this creates alot of extra hassle for the large majority of our customers. We've gone from Steam being a small minority to being the biggest chunk of the customer base. This is from who registers at forums and buys the game from pre-orders and day #1 sales.

I wouldn't be surprised if beta-patches and such will be steam-only, and then final patches will be for all.

I cannot begin to tell you how disappointed I am to hear that. The move to Steam would certainly shift my buying habits from picking up every game paradox makes to only grabbing the few titles that interest me most.