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Winter is here and the ice-fear is very cold (now there's an obscure reference for you). For today's diary, I thought that we might immerse ourselves in medieval jurisprudence. In practice, the laws function in much the same way as in Rome: Vae Victis, but in Crusader Kings II there are two different types of law; one that applies to a character's actual demesne (de facto, or demesne laws) and one that applies to everyone within an ancient traditional kingdom (de jure, or kingdom laws.) Demesne laws cover things like succession, tax levels and how the council operates. Any playable character can fiddle around with his own demesne laws. Kingdom laws cover the freedoms, rights and obligations of burghers, nobles, clergy and peasants. Only the holder of a Kingdom title is allowed to change these laws, and they will affect the whole geographical kingdom, regardless of whether a province is actually under its de facto control. (Like in Crusader Kings, de jure duchies and kingdoms are static, geographical entities that never change.)

Therefore, a player who is, for example, king of Norway and Denmark must change de jure laws separately per kingdom. To make things even more interesting, succession at the kingdom level (and only at the kingdom level) is also handled per kingdom, so Norway might be an elective monarchy while Denmark has primogeniture. Thus, the Norwegian dukes might elect another successor to the throne of Norway than the oldest son of the current king, which would split the kingdoms apart...
Speaking of succession laws, they are slightly different from the ones in Crusader Kings. In Crusader Kings II, most succession laws can be either cognatic or agnatic (that choice is a separate law.) These are the succession laws of CKII:

  • Seniority (oldest man in the dynasty succeeds)
  • Primogeniture (oldest son succeeds)
  • Elective (the current king and the dukes each nominate a successor)
  • Gavelkind (all titles are divided among the sons of the ruler)
  • Turkish (a succession crisis is almost guaranteed, but the vassals are content)
  • Republican (a random vassal or courtier succeeds; used for republics, etc)
  • Catholic Bishopric (the liege lord can override the Pope's choice by nominating his own successor)

That's all for now. The game is still a very long way from being finished, but I can at least offer you this screenshot of the current Law interface (though bear in mind that it is still very much subject to change.) In the screenshot, the king stands to inherit the duchy, because the young duke has no legal heir. "Pretenders" are the second and third characters in the line of succession.


Diary003_01.jpg


Until next time, I bid you a very merry Christmas and a Happy New Year!

Henrik Fåhraeus, Associate Producer and CKII Project Lead
 
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Great to see that this central aspect of medieval political life will be fleshed out in the game :)

I haven't had time to consider them properly, but these broad categories of succession law seem to match the broad historical and regional trends very well. The note on 'Catholic bishopric' is especially exciting as it opens up the possibility for investiture controversies between lay lords and the papacy.
 
Woohoo, reading time.

Edit:
Very interesting. Are the succession laws moddable? (I know from all the discussion there are many, many more possbilities).
I like the division of demesne laws versus kingdom laws. The fixed duchies and kingdoms make sense I guess, but I wonder about the exact implications of that.

Also, is the child's portrait a place holder? It's more or less the CK version.
 
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Is one of the icons in the top bar "Tyranny"?
 
Woohoo, reading time.

Edit:
Very interesting. Are the succession laws moddable? (I know from all the discussion there are many, many more possbilities).
I like the division of demesne laws versus kingdom laws. The fixed duchies and kingdoms make sense I guess, but I wonder about the exact implications of that.

Also, is the child's portrait a place holder? It's more or less the CK version.

The succession laws are only partially moddable. You can change the requirements, but not how they actually work. The child portrait is a placeholder, yes.
 
Man, I am so excited!
 
These are the succession laws of CKII:

  • Seniority (oldest man in the dynasty succeeds)
  • Primogeniture (oldest son succeeds)
  • Elective (the current king and the dukes each nominate a successor)
  • Gavelkind (all titles are divided among the sons of the ruler)
  • Turkish (a succession crisis is almost guaranteed, but the vassals are content)
  • Republican (a random vassal or courtier succeeds; used for republics, etc)
  • Catholic Bishopric (the liege lord can override the Pope's choice by nominating his own successor)

In CKII, does primogeniture mean "salic primogeniture" thereby excluding semi-salic primogeniture?

If yes, that means the end of marrying a powerful heiress (like Eleanor of Aquitaine) to secure a higher title for your son. In my opinion, that would be a loss to the dynastic game dynamics. It will also dimish the diplomatic value of having daughters, and may put a lid on the discussion of whether engagements (if included in CKII) will be of any value beyond cementing a friendship through family ties.

Are the CKII succession laws divided into sub-laws?
 
Nice features!

However, the king looks waaay too much like something out of a 19th century history book for children. What's up with the bright blue background and the silly crown?? Or the hermelin mantle?? Medieval crowns were big, crude pieces of BLING, not romantic-arts-type ornaments.

Wiki has plenty of pictures of medieval (1066-1399 CK era) crowns, they look nothing like that.
 
In CKII, does primogeniture mean "salic primogeniture" thereby excluding semi-salic primogeniture?

If yes, that means the end of marrying a powerful heiress (like Eleanor of Aquitaine) to secure a higher title for your son. In my opinion, that would be a loss to the dynastic game dynamics. It will also dimish the diplomatic value of having daughters, and may put a lid on the discussion of whether engagements (if included in CKII) will be of any value beyond cementing a friendship through family ties.

Are the CKII succession laws divided into sub-laws?

I spoke too hasty!!

Doomdark has already answered this: "In Crusader Kings II, most succession laws can be either cognatic or agnatic (that choice is a separate law.)"
 
In CKII, does primogeniture mean "salic primogeniture" thereby excluding semi-salic primogeniture?

If yes, that means the end of marrying a powerful heiress (like Eleanor of Aquitaine) to secure a higher title for your son. In my opinion, that would be a loss to the dynastic game dynamics. It will also dimish the diplomatic value of having daughters, and may put a lid on the discussion of whether engagements (if included in CKII) will be of any value beyond cementing a friendship through family ties.

Semi-Salic = Cognatic

Are the CKII succession laws divided into sub-laws?

No
 
Sweet, this looks like a massive improvement over the first game.

How easy will it be to change succession laws ? Will there be consequences ? or will it be more like CK1 where you could change them at will with little impact ?

It will be relatively easy to change the succession laws, though the exact requirements are not yet decided. However, you risk alienating the heir under the current law (it might even give them a reason to declare war.) The central choice, though, is between the pros and cons of the various laws.
 
I like the flexibility in this system. Yet the possibility of female inheiritance does raise the family question. In CK1 children always belong to their fathers dynasty. That pretty much mean the end of every dynasty ruled by a woman.

I suggest that children of female rulers belong to their mothers dynasty instead of their fathers. At least in the cases where the fathers title is lower than the mothers.

On the other hand a male marrying a female ruler should probably be able to usurp her title, if the nobility approves of him.
 
Sute]{h;11860375 said:
I like the flexibility in this system. Yet the possibility of female inheiritance does raise the family question. In CK1 children always belong their fathers dynasty. That pretty much mean the end of every dynasty ruled by a woman.

I suggest that children of female rulers belong to their mothers dynasty instead of their fathers. At least in the cases where the fathers title is lower than the mothers.

That is the way it works in CKII.
 
That is the way it works in CKII.
Nice. :)

Ohh and as far as I know cognatic and semi-salic isn't the same. Cognatic succession implies that females can inheirit. While semi-salic means that they can only do so, if there are no male heirs. So semi-salic law is cognatic, but cognatic law could be gender neutral as well.

As for elective law could this be limited to people within the same dynasty as the previous ruler? As far as I know that restriction is far from uncommon. It would also allow a player to choose an elective law without risking a random game over.
 
Sute]{h;11860415 said:
Nice. :)

Ohh and as far as I know cognatic and semi-salic isn't the same. Cognatic succession implies that females can inheirit. While semi-salic means that they can only do so, if there are no male heirs. So semi-salic law is cognatic, but cognatic law could be gender neutral as well.

Yes, but cognatic as it is used in CKII is not "absolute cognatic", but semi-salic. The word "Salic" is not appropriate to other areas of the world.

As for elective law could this be limited to people within the same dynasty as the previous ruler? As far as I know that restriction is far from uncommon. It would also allow a player to choose an elective law without risking a random game over.

Well, no... I think the risk makes it more interesting. It's not necessarily game over, however; you will still keep your other titles. (I.e, your other titles will default to Primogeniture if another dynasty wins the election.)