1944 - Götterdämmerung Revised

[Mjarr]

Not yet. Air power is not my forte (i wish it were abstracted...), and I don't know if there really is anything to balance there. Suggestions are welcome.

I have to say I haven't studied it to nitpicking level but overall aerial situation in '44 scenario is fine. Only odd thing around is that one of the fighter squadrons on the eastern front is actually basic turbojet fighter even though the first 'real' turbojet squadron Kommando Nowotny was formed up in September '44.

Oh, and that squadron I mentioned is a german one

 

[Syntalynder]

Götterdämmerung Revised should be incorporated into the game.
An excellent piece of research & work.

 

[Grimlin]

Will you also balance upgrades? For example the tanks or airplanes?

Marvelous research so far, looks pretty damn realistic.

 

[DvD-IT]

Mjarr - Haven't found turbojet fighters in the Eastern Front. The only model 5 squardon is located in Amsterdam, Jagdgeschwader 400, which correctly was a squadron made of Me-163 rocket fighters.

Syntalynder - Thank you. Such a decision is up to the devs.

Grimlin - You mean if I should modify the divisions' models? Any input would be welcome since I don't know what to modify there. Actually, I did, since I gave the Soviets some 1943 infantry divisions.

I was thinking of giving the Balkans a high Revolt Risk, such as 40-50%. There are several German divisions there, and currently it makes no sense to leave them there, while IRL several battles have been fought there as the Axis had to commit a large number of men against Tito and his comrades.

Also, an important question. I've found out that you can assign a value greater than 100 to the strength of a division. So, setting the max strength of every division to 150-175 would remove the hassle (would have removed, had I known this beforehand) of creating new divisions in order to make up for the 10,000 men - 17,500 men discrepancy that exists between the HoI meaning of division and their RL counterparts.

On the plus side, setting a higher max_strength value means that:

- I could retain the original number of divisions without having to make up fictitious ones (every new division's name is a copy of another one with the suffix '(2)')
- You have way less divisions swinging around
- Stacking penalty won't be as high as having 600 Soviet divisions against 350 Axis ones (stacking penalty should be based on the total MP engaged in a battle and not on the number of divisions IMO, but that's another story).
- Wouldn't need to artificially inflate GER and SOV's IC in order to make up for the tremendous cost in terms of supplies of the new divisions.

On the negative side,

- It just doesn't feel right that every other scenario is based off the '1 division = 10,000 men' concept, and only this one should break this rule. Modifying this scenario doesn't mean upsetting the whole game settings behind it.
- I don't know if there would be balance issues with regards to divisions with more strength than 100. I have never seen this before and I don't know what wacky results it could lead to.

While the 175 strength division is somehow appealing, I have a fear that I'd... better not screw things up (i.e. if it ain't broke don't fix it). I need your input there, since I'd have to restart all over again (minus the research, of course) in case we want to adopt this configuration.​

 

[Grimlin]

Grimlin - You mean if I should modify the divisions' models? Any input would be welcome since I don't know what to modify there. Actually, I did, since I gave the Soviets some 1943 infantry divisions.

Thats exactly what I meant, some divisions get Panzer IV, others Panthers, some get Tigers, others get Königstigers.
Same for airplanes or even infantry divisions.

 

[unmerged(189717)]

I could retain the original number of divisions without having to make up fictitious ones (every new division's name is a copy of another one with the suffix '(2)')

IMO, having the common 10,000 men = 100 value division is 100% okay, but having division named like "Panzerkorps I" and 2Panzercorps I (2)" is... cheap. Don't get me wrong, you do a great job, but those names would just be ugly. Better create new names for new divsions or use genric ones (e.g. something like Infanteriedivision XVIII or so).

 

[Mjarr]

Mjarr - Haven't found turbojet fighters in the Eastern Front. The only model 5 squardon is located in Amsterdam, Jagdgeschwader 400, which correctly was a squadron made of Me-163 rocket fighters.

Check Schlachtgeschwader 1 in Minsk, province id 212. You'll find multirole fighter that's turbojet.

It's also in your revised map. Copypaste from ger.inc:

airunit =
{ location = 212
base = 212
id = { type = 10602 id = 404 }
name = "Heeresgruppe Mitte"
division =
{ experience = 60
id = { type = 10602 id = 405 }
name = "JG 51 'Mölders'"
strength = 80
type = interceptor
model = 3
}
division =
{ experience = 60
id = { type = 10602 id = 406 }
name = "Schlachtgeschwader 1"
strength = 80
type = multi_role
model = 3 <--- changing this to 2 will do the job though.

 

[DvD-IT]

Grimlin - Eh, maybe I can represent that with H-Arm brigades or the like, although some of them are already in place.

Leonaru - I didn't want to invent fictional names since they... didn't exist; most of them are in fact generic names (Infanterie-Division', without any Roman Numeral though). Anyhow, fixing names is a simple, 30-minutes job at max (which I intended to do anyways, only later on as this is a low-priority issue), but before doing that I need to know if we want to retain the current men/division proportion (which I'm favor of, but you never know). At least I didn't need to create any new Armored divisions, so the issue is only related to Infantry divisions.

Mjarr - You are right. Changed it to 2.

 

[CaptRobau]

Ran 0.1 as Tibet. Berlin taken by October 28th, 1944. The Soviets at that point at the current Polish eastern border. Naturally Germany doesn't surrender. There's fighting in the Balkans for a while. Western Allies AI fails to see the entire Norwegian coast unoccupied so they don't take the two remaining German VPs. The Soviets can't break through Northern Scandinavia due to the terrain. It's February 1945 and the stalemate is not looking like it'll end soon. The Soviets will eventually steamroll Norway once they move the bulk of their troops there but until then Germany (and Hitler) are still in the game.

Japan is losing on schedule. Only problem is the easy defeat of the Nationalist units in the coastal pockets. It seems to be a supply problem that kicks in when their supplies run out. HoI3 fixes this by having IC produce supplies even when cut off. In HoI3, this situation should hold out. In AoD this system wouldn't even do good as there's no IC in occupied in China as far as I can tell. Not in Shanghai, Nanjing or the other big cities. Perhaps add some IC. The high partisan activity should nerf the gain Japan gets from this.

 

[DvD-IT]

Version 0.2 released​

CaptRobau - Thanks for the input.

Strange, in my tests Germany seems to hold out a little longer. In the new version, Germany should be a little tougher. I have in fact deleted some excess division in the SU (there still are 60 more divisions than original 1944) and have given +0.05 to Germany's GDE. As to partly address the Chinese problem, I have given NatChi 6 IC (4 in the salient); it won't be enough, as the Far East needs to be reworked too, but it's a start.

I don't know if this happened to your test, but in my tests the UK seems to steamroll Italy fairly easily - probably because the German AI likes to deplete its organization in futile attacks - so I have fortified the Gothic Line from level 1 forts to level 4.

Last but not least, I have created a new events folder made for this scenario, so I can modify and create new events without influencing other scenarios. Now the whole Hitler Assassination thing is much less likely to happen, and it will inflict less dissent (couldn't be that every 1944 game would end with Hitler assassinated and much less German IC); also, the UK and the US get an event that kills off 50% of their daily manpower growth.

 

[CaptRobau]

Italy wasn't steamrolled in my game, although the Germans did a lot of futile offensives in Italy. The British only gained two provinces out of it. After that the Germans managed to put up a good line of defense. Northern Italy/Southern France was still being held when the Americans marched into a virtually (1 division) empty Berlin.

I don't like the fact that Germany doesn't surrender after Berlin's been taken. How about adding an event that details wether the Fuhrer wants to hold out in the Austrian Alps (changes capital to area around Berchtesgaden and adds VP) or in Berlin (in the latter, if Berlin is taken, Hitler commits suicide).

EDIT: Also how about putting the Italian Social Republic in. Or would that impair Germany's fighting power (supplies or something)?

 

[CaptRobau]

Did another test and this time Berlin was taken on November 1st. Till September everything was pretty historical. The Allies had gotten to the river Rhine. Germany was holding its own after Bagration. Then the western fronts crumbled. Italy fell and the Allies invade Northern Germany through the Netherlands. Both of these have nothing to do with the amount of divisions as those are spot on due to your research but due to how easy it is to cross the Rhine. In reality they would've needed a bridge to get whole divisions across and that's not simulated in AoD. Otherwise the front would've held till à la Battle of the Bulge. Alternatively, the supply lines of the Allies are too good. They would've had to stop for fuel and supplies around the time they got in the Low Countries but here they just drove on and on.

As the surrender event came, Germany was still holding parts of the Baltics and only in the center there was sort of breakthrough. If it hadn't been for the Allies taking Berlin, the Germans could've lost at the Eastern front on a historic pace.

I'd call the Eastern Front pretty much done. The Western front needs taken care off. Perhaps add an event which determines to where both sides will go (Oder as was historically or further to the east if SU is doing worse than the allies).

Also add a lvl 1 fortification in Dortmund to simulate the Geldernstellung of the Siegfried line. Should prevent early breakthroughs in that area.

 

[Mjarr]

This might be just my own FUBAR mind but I don't see a reason to make the '44 scenario to act like 100% identical to history almost everytime it's played by the AI.

E.G. with somewhat modded game after picking up Panama and simply looking how AI is going it took until July 1945 before Berlin fell to the British, Russians managed to border it and took some parts of Czechslovakia and the alps, next case resulted that Russians took Berlin in 15th of November and there was quite a major standstill salient, while on February '45 the surrender event for Germany kicked in. A third observation resulted that ½ of Germany was lost already by October '44 and that by December '44 the surrender event kicked in.

I recommend observing it bit more before really making some statements about it. You don't need to have exact statistics about the subjects, just look at the overall situation and when the surrender event kicks in and possible overall performance prior that (how much land is taken etc).

 

[CaptRobau]

It shouldn't be 100% historic everytime. But it should at least be somewhat historical some of the times, which is not the case with the vanilla '44 scenario. Once you get the AI to approach history some of the times, then you've got a pretty realistic set-up for a '44 scenario. For me the fun in these scenarios is to do something ahistorically (go for a spearhead approach as the Allies instead of a wide front and take out Germany before the Sovies, etc.). To go ahistorically, the history part should be as similar to RL as possible. That's what's makes it fun, at least for me. Knowing that I could've survived D-Day and Bagration if I was in charge of Germany back then.

 

[DvD-IT]

You both have your points. Even if it was possible to model this scenario to 100% historical accuracy, the outcome would be most probably unexpected, because this is a game with its limitations and flaws, and not a realistic simulation. Handsoff games are useful to me as a way to benchmark the overall mix between balance and historical realism without having the scenario go haywire. I don't mind if Germany falls by November 1944, I just don't want it to fall because of discutible reasons such as the US divisions being too fast.

In short, I'm modeling the June 1944 situation as close to reality as possible, not its outcome; so this doesn't mean that, from there, events should follow a deterministic path in a historical schedule; however, a rough historical outcome is always welcome.

My own design philosophy behind this is that first I reach a reasonable level of historical accuracy, then I balance things out when and if needed. To do this I also need some handsoff games. Besides, it's fun to see how the AI reacts

I don't like the fact that Germany doesn't surrender after Berlin's been taken. How about adding an event that details wether the Fuhrer wants to hold out in the Austrian Alps (changes capital to area around Berchtesgaden and adds VP) or in Berlin (in the latter, if Berlin is taken, Hitler commits suicide).

Could be done in the future. At the moment, I want to keep this as less event-oriented as possible. Historically, National Redoubt idea had serious military implications among the Allied ranks, but I don't see how we could emulate that here.

In reality they would've needed a bridge to get whole divisions across and that's not simulated in AoD. Otherwise the front would've held till à la Battle of the Bulge. Alternatively, the supply lines of the Allies are too good. They would've had to stop for fuel and supplies

You're spot on. The Allies faced severe logistical issues that hampered their advance, but I don't think there is any way to alter the state of the Allied supply lines in the game in a way that they would be slowed down. I could add two or three locked garrison divisions in the Siegfried line, capped at 50% strength.

Also add a lvl 1 fortification in Dortmund to simulate the Geldernstellung of the Siegfried line. Should prevent early breakthroughs in that area.

Done.

 

[Mjarr]

While it's bit of artificial one, you could always try making some event that fires ASAP that gives -400\so TC for USA (and maybe UK aswell) once they E.G. take certain areas of France and it would take a few weeks before it goes back to normal.

Only problem might be that a human german player could easily exploit it to major advatange while it would effect every other front aswell for UK and USA, even though that might be somewhat realistic scenario to some degree.

 

[DvD-IT]

Indeed, the exploit is unavoidable. I'll have to think of another solution.

Forgot to address the point

Also how about putting the Italian Social Republic in. Or would that impair Germany's fighting power (supplies or something)?

No. Historically, Italy was under complete German occupation after the Italians signed the armistice with the Allies. Mussolini and his ISR were under direct control of Germany; not even a puppet would be appropriate here, because the ISR had almost no autonomy whatsoever. Could be done, but the ISR should have massive penalties and high revolt risk.

 

[CaptRobau]

Indeed, the exploit is unavoidable. I'll have to think of another solution.

Forgot to address the point



No. Historically, Italy was under complete German occupation after the Italians signed the armistice with the Allies. Mussolini and his ISR were under direct control of Germany; not even a puppet would be appropriate here, because the ISR had almost no autonomy whatsoever. Could be done, but the ISR should have massive penalties and high revolt risk.

What can I say, I love that bald mother****** Doesn't matter, it'd indeed be more of cosmetic thing. I'd contest that the ISR is less deserving of puppet status than the other puppets such as Manchukuo. The latter had no power at all (perhaps a little internal power). ISR is a special case since it was established as a frontline state, so the Germans ruled there with an iron fist.

 

[DvD-IT]

Since the ISR would be a liability, I'd prefer to maintain the status quo.

I am currently playing with the AI files. I'm still a novice at modding AI files, so it will take time before I get some decent result.

I want to take a look at Chinese and Japanese forces for version 0.3, too.

 

[PanzerMan7]

should all that american infantry hav mot and mech?