Why isn't Zeeland like Venice? Blockable by a navy? Making HT, why not change that?

[Niptium]

I was wondering about this. Even more than Venice, in IN, if there was a province that should be blockable by a navy is Zeeland. The whole province at the mouth of so much European rivers (Scheldt, Rhine, Maas, etc) is made up of islands.

Here is a map drawn in 1580 of the province : http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fichier:1580_Zelandicarum_v_Deventer.jpg

It's essentially a buch of islands. Even the capital is on the most populated and the western most of these island. When the French invaded in 1672, they were stoped at Utrecht because the Dutch broke down the dams to flood the country, even making Holland an island. But let's get back to 1672. When the French held Utrecht, Groningen, Gelderland, Friesland and the Generaliteit land (Breda in EU3), they couldn't go further. Both the English and the French then tried to breakdown the Dutch navy but because de Ruyter was very cautious and very intelligent, they couldn't. The Dutch then conducted war from both Zeeland and Inundated-Holland.

Going further in time. During the French invasion of the United Provinces in 1795, the French again conquered the inland province up to Holland. They didn't take Zeeland as they couldn't get naval supremacy. Zeeland finally negociated and capitulated on their own term diplomatically to France.

Making Zeeland a province that you can block the paths to the bordering provinces with naval supremacy would reflect the true geographical nature of the province. It would also insure a safekeeping retreat for the Dutch player with naval supremacy in the neighbooring water province to any bigass French or German army.

During World War II, the Queen even sought to retreat to Zeeland (as it was made up of island) to keep on fighting the advancing Germans. But she was advised by the English, she would be better off in England.

I'm begging Paradox's expansion team to consider this.

 

[Arizal]

Yes, Zeeland should be like Venice. In HoI3, Anglo-norman islands are like that, so why not Zeeland in EU3? And Japan are in same situation.

Furthermore, that would be a great idea to slow down France, if without proper navy, they could invade United-Province just by Utrecht province.

 

[unmerged(88781)]

That's occurred to me as well. The Netherlands is supposed to be a major player in this period but in any continental war in Europe they tend to be overwhelmed and have to concede territory. Making Zeeland into an island province doesn't look like it would make much of a difference though and adding Holland and Friesland as islands would be difficult to explain in real terms. The Netherlands definitely need some sort of help though to make them tougher opposition in wars.

Incidentally, in 1672 the French and their German allies didn't even manage to occupy Friesland and Groningen but were beaten back from there.

 

[Niptium]

That's occurred to me as well. The Netherlands is supposed to be a major player in this period but in any continental war in Europe they tend to be overwhelmed and have to concede territory. Making Zeeland into an island province doesn't look like it would make much of a difference though and adding Holland and Friesland as islands would be difficult to explain in real terms. The Netherlands definitely need some sort of help though to make them tougher opposition in wars.

Incidentally, in 1672 the French and their German allies didn't even manage to occupy Friesland and Groningen but were beaten back from there.

Yes, but I think making Zeeland an insular province like Venice would help out a human AI, for example in a MP game. That's a first step. Then, the Holland problem with the dams is something else entirely. Holland isn't a proper island to speak, but Zeeland is. Its unrealistic that any army could march over on Zeeland if the Dutch have naval control of the neighboring sea.

 

[unmerged(88781)]

Yes, just considering Zeeland on it's own it's reasonable that it should be represented as an island even though part of it's territory was on the mainland. I was hoping though that this idea could be applied to the problem of how to make the Dutch Republic more robust in big wars particularly considering how well it did in wars in the period 1568-1714.

 

[Niptium]

I think we are in agreement then !

 

[Junuxx]

Makes sense to me. Perhaps they looked at a modern map, with all the islands connected to the mainland.

 

[polskaGOLA]

I was thinking this the other day myself actually...

 

[Tem_Probe]

I agree, this sounds appropriate and useful to me.

 

[Niptium]

I agree, this sounds appropriate and useful to me.

This is exactly what I'm saying. Little investment in time for Paradox and it makes the Dutch player much more secure and ready to invest in naval. Useful is the word.

 

[Gorgo Primus]

In the same light Korea should have Jeju as it was considered a national redoubt for similar reasons.

 

[unmerged(171912)]

Gorgo Primus, You can't be a pagan communist. paganism is a religious belief and communists are atheist. You just like the ideas of these concepts.

 

[Sinroth]

Well, not really. A lot of Communist ideologies are Atheistic (Marxism, Leninism), but that doesn't mean all of them are. Christian Communism is gaining a lot of support, and that is religiously based.

And on Zeeland - I am totally for this idea. It might require a bit of re-working around the Dutch provinces, but I think it'll be worth it. It might even slow down the blobs dominating the Low Countries so soon.

 

[Junuxx]

On a related note, I think the Zuiderzee should be a separate sea province from Coast of Holland.

 

[Lubricus]

On a related note, I think the Zuiderzee should be a separate sea province from Coast of Holland.

I agree, but there is a chance the map will be too cluttered - Zuiderzee isn't very big, after all.

 

[Junuxx]

True, but strategically important! And it's odd that all of the North Sea is classified as 100% 'ocean' instead of shallow seas like the Mediterranean and Baltic.

 

[Abominus]

I changed it in our MP-Mod:

http://www.si-games.com/forums/local_links.php?catid=39&linkid=82

 

[Lubricus]

True, but strategically important! And it's odd that all of the North Sea is classified as 100% 'ocean' instead of shallow seas like the Mediterranean and Baltic.

Well, the North Sea is certainly not shallow! But some of the sea zones are, indeed.

 

[Junuxx]

A lot shallower than the mediterranean

The Mediterranean Sea has an average depth of 1,500 metres and the deepest recorded point is 5,267 meters.

The North Sea has an average depth of 95 metres and the deepest point is 700 meters.

 

[Lubricus]

Yep, about half the depth. But both are oceanic in places - it's all a matter of placing the sea zones right, and giving the zones the correct label, so to speak.