Development Diary #4 - 23rd of September 2009

[Incompetent]

I disagree with the above since that would render conversions certain provided a missionary station and time. If we went historical, I'd make the whole conversion thing apply only for pagans. I cannot think of an example where non-pagan populations were actually converted. Conversions in the sense that province switched from one religion to another all seem to have involved displacement of people.

Albania? Goa?

Not to mention the huge to and fro that happened between various Christian sects. Displacement of people played a part, but that wasn't the whole story. Consider for instance the conversion of England from a Catholic country to a Protestant one, in which the state played a huge role in forcing the new religion on the populace. Not many English Catholics actually emigrated to the continent.

 

[Therion]

Counterreformation in Bohemia and Poland-Lithuania in the 17th century.

In my opinion, the Counterreformation should be inevitable in the historical regions in which it took place and handled in the same way as the Reformation.

 

[Alexandru H.]

This is in my opinion the worst idea I've seen on FTG. This is mainly because conversion and religion is so badly modeled in EU2. To see this we can just take an example.

You have a high ADM on monarch, attempts an conversion, but the last month you get a lousy monarch. Is it reasonably that his 1 month of reign should influence the outcome of something that has been going on for, i.e. 86 months.

So how is that different from putting Suleyman I in 1566 to convert a province, even though the attempt takes place mainly during the reign of his impotent son?

Another thing you're forgetting is historical monarch factor. You can easily see what are the best monarchs for the job, when will they appear or hit the bucket. Frankly, conversions are a bit of a cheat... with a bit of work you can make all Europe and most of Asia catholic by 1819...

 

[Therion]

Albania? Goa?

Not to mention the huge to and fro that happened between various Christian sects. Displacement of people played a part, but that wasn't the whole story. Consider for instance the conversion of England from a Catholic country to a Protestant one, in which the state played a huge role in forcing the new religion on the populace. Not many English Catholics actually emigrated to the continent.

Albania and Goa are indeed exceptions. However these exceptions do not legitimize the current conversion setup which enables a player to convert his entire empire. English conversion from Catholicism to Protestantism is an inevitable process so you do not need missionaries for that. You only need missionaries to do ahistorical things like converting Ireland...

 

[Incompetent]

In my opinion, the Counterreformation should be inevitable in the historical regions in which it took place and handled in the same way as the Reformation.

The way the Reformation is handled in vanilla EU2 is terrible, having provinces 'latently' Protestant until the event comes. These places weren't predestined to convert, and when they did it didn't happen all at once. Moreover, there was plenty of politics involved and rulers imposing their beliefs on the people, while the current events don't respond at all to the political situation.

I think it should require the state to convert provinces (whether by event or by missionary) unless there was a major historical 'grass-roots' conversion. So for instance Huguenots should appear in France spontaneously, but England or Sweden shouldn't suddenly turn all-Protestant regardless of what the King does. The English Reformation was by no means 'inevitable' - it's just simulated that way in EU2 because of the crude setup, which hopefully FTG will improve on.

 

[luk3Z]

Definitely we need some "tool" for easier conversation (but conversation need more time, more dependence on stability and tolerance sliders).
What about idea:
- when you fail conversion province to state religion then random % or x % of population resettle to random province in our country with the same province's religon
- successful convert province to state religion then random % or y % of population resettle to random province in our country with religon before conversion (in other case resettle to abroad)

BTW: I have Papal States Reformed lately on ExtraWatk

Edit:
more ideas:
- provinces on the border our country with non state culture harder to convert (when religion in other country on the border is like in our provinces which we want to convert)
- we can convert province when the nationalism disappear in it
- in provinces with RR > 0 we can't send missionaries (some kind of prevent too fast conversions)

 

[Therion]

The way the Reformation is handled in vanilla EU2 is terrible, having provinces 'latently' Protestant until the event comes. These places weren't predestined to convert, and when they did it didn't happen all at once. Moreover, there was plenty of politics involved and rulers imposing their beliefs on the people, while the current events don't respond at all to the political situation.

I think it should require the state to convert provinces (whether by event or by missionary) unless there was a major historical 'grass-roots' conversion. So for instance Huguenots should appear in France spontaneously, but England or Sweden shouldn't suddenly turn all-Protestant regardless of what the King does.

I agree that it is terrible but I was considering the Reformation setup in AGCEEP, in which provinces that were historically or 'latently' Protestant convert gradually. I think that the Counterreformation should happen in the same manner: provinces that historically switched back to Catholicism should gradually convert back.

I agree that they weren't predestined to convert but a historical simulation must necessarily involve some degree of predestination. Perhaps a compromise between AGCEEP and your idea (which I support) would be that of checking whether a nation changes religion before starting to convert its provinces. So the English King has to first create the Church of England for the Reformation province events to trigger.

 

[Alexandru H.]

Definitely we need some "tool" for easier conversation (but conversation need more time, more dependence on stability and tolerance sliders).
What about idea:
- when you fail conversion province to state religion then random % or x % of population resettle to random province in our country with the same province's religon
- successful convert province to state religion then random % or y % of population resettle to random province in our country with religon before conversion (in other case resettle to abroad)

BTW: I have Papal States Reformed lately on ExtraWatk

We need a tool for harder conversion. Right now it's downright stupid how the Ottomans, for example, manage to make everything muslim in the Balkans by 1550, without great efforts...

 

[luk3Z]

We need a tool for harder conversion. Right now it's downright stupid how the Ottomans, for example, manage to make everything muslim in the Balkans by 1550, without great efforts...

I mean about similar religons and easier = less than 5% or 10% (never mind it is example only).
Harder conversation for diverse/distinct religons is good idea.
Harder also means: more time, more dependence on stability and tolerance sliders, rise RR (in province), provinces on the border, when nationalism disappear (in province), RR > 0 can't convert - as I wrote above.
My example:

 

[asgeirpe]

Also I don't like the idea about force conversion making 5000 inf vanish - if you ride into a province with 5000 troops to force-convert everyone by the word and *your guys* disappear in the process you made a mistake, it seems

The 5000 inf would be a cost, i.e. you have to tie up 5000 inf. and pay for their maintainance . You could instead just pay 250 ducats for example or you could get them back by the time the force conversion is over.

 

[asgeirpe]

So how is that different from putting Suleyman I in 1566 to convert a province, even though the attempt takes place mainly during the reign of his impotent son?

Another thing you're forgetting is historical monarch factor. You can easily see what are the best monarchs for the job, when will they appear or hit the bucket. Frankly, conversions are a bit of a cheat... with a bit of work you can make all Europe and most of Asia catholic by 1819...

My argument was that the whole set up is wrong. That is, is it as much wrong that the % gets calculated at the start as in the end. I advocated a change in the whole system. And don't really understand the bit where you say that I have forgotten the historical monarch factor. I want that the adm skill of the monarch shouldn't influence conversian as it is now.

....and that I need to learn to quote two posts in one........and I have fulfilled my highest wish, to spark a debate on the conversion system. I'm aware that my ideas might not be the best. It is mainly to "provoke" so we need to think and then maybe we together can come up with an idea that maybe the FTG teams sees as superior to the current system.

 

[unmerged(40707)]

in regards to leaders,

privateers/corsairs (as a med. term) .........do they appear at any time or based on historical dates.

As far as I read , in the med. FRA, VEN, GEN, TUR, KNI etc etc always used corsairs through out their history to gain revenue for the state, basically a secret war on another state, be it ally or enemy.

Will these privateers appear only in peace times or ???

leader = historical leader (in leaders file of the country).

 

[Prinz Wilhelm]

I think that missionaries should be like this:

You put missionaries toward a province to start converting. This just means there is a chap standing there, doing his animation. If you hold your mouse on him (or click on the province) it shows how many percent of the population has been converted. Having a missionary in a province should increase revolt risk a bit, so one can actually get revolts during a conversion because of it.

Once it reaches 51% or more (moddable, I guess) the province has been converted, and there's a low percent chance that your new religion spreads on because of people meeting and giving ideas to other people. This could, however, be a daunting project and just far too hard to model and set up. And how would it look in text files? *shrugs*

 

[Pal]

I think that missionaries should be like this:

You put missionaries toward a province to start converting. This just means there is a chap standing there, doing his animation. If you hold your mouse on him (or click on the province) it shows how many percent of the population has been converted. Having a missionary in a province should increase revolt risk a bit, so one can actually get revolts during a conversion because of it.

Once it reaches 51% or more (moddable, I guess) the province has been converted, and there's a low percent chance that your new religion spreads on because of people meeting and giving ideas to other people. This could, however, be a daunting project and just far too hard to model and set up. And how would it look in text files? *shrugs*

I like that a lot, it's pretty close to the way EU3-IN handles that. Of course you'd have to implement some kind of upkeep cost, as the one-time payment would otherwise keep the missionary going forever, which just isn't realistic.

The savegame is no problem. Instead of the line with enddate and success chance, just have the conversion progress saved.

There could be events linked to an ongoing missionary effort, like "mob lynches missionary", "overwhelmning success at mass conversions" or "missionary preaches heresy"... *drool*

 

[unmerged(54422)]

Guys, Any ideas about the release date?

 

[Garbon]

I agree that it is terrible but I was considering the Reformation setup in AGCEEP, in which provinces that were historically or 'latently' Protestant convert gradually. I think that the Counterreformation should happen in the same manner: provinces that historically switched back to Catholicism should gradually convert back.

I agree that they weren't predestined to convert but a historical simulation must necessarily involve some degree of predestination. Perhaps a compromise between AGCEEP and your idea (which I support) would be that of checking whether a nation changes religion before starting to convert its provinces. So the English King has to first create the Church of England for the Reformation province events to trigger.

Wouldn't provinces that converted back to catholicism already be covered? In your two examples, we're talking about protestant/reformed/hussite provinces ruled over by two different catholic powers. The AI is going to make strides to convert them.

 

[europolis]

@Therion
religion is only difficult to change if it has been there for a very long time, yet it changes every few hundred years or whatnot.
also, 'pagan' is a religion too you know, calling your beliefs 'the higher ones', that are beyond conversion is rather presumptuous... The only reason why the spanish were able to 'convert' the american natives is because they used a lot of resources and cunning strategies with papal support(and this is the sole reason to why the colonies did not fall).

yes, with enough time and resources conversions are a reality. AND yes in every situation missionaries were a CENTRAL part of the process, i really dont know what the hell you are talking about here. There is no such thing as a 'natural' conversion, only what people -make- happen.

-----
the system does need some work though, and what Prinz Wilhelm said is very nice. it would also be cool if there was a chance for a revolt, and if it happened maybe a lot of the 'converted' population may be lynched or whatnot. who knows the possibilities are endless, and other users have made interesting suggestions.

let the devs decide now, how much they want to code.

cheers.

 

[unmerged(42723)]

Guys, Any ideas about the release date?

No official date yet, but certainly in Q4 2009, and before x-mas as posted by Yoda here:
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showpost.php?p=10012821&postcount=11

 

[Therion]

@Therion
calling your beliefs 'the higher ones', that are beyond conversion is rather presumptuous...

:rofl:

Say, do you know what my beliefs are?

The only reason why the spanish were able to 'convert' the american natives is because they used a lot of resources and cunning strategies with papal support(and this is the sole reason to why the colonies did not fall).

And we want to simulate that, don't we?

As to the fact that Europeans weren't really able to convert other Christian denominations or Muslims, we want to simulate that, don't we?

Value-judgements are absolutely irrelevant here.

 

[Therion]

Wouldn't provinces that converted back to catholicism already be covered? In your two examples, we're talking about protestant/reformed/hussite provinces ruled over by two different catholic powers. The AI is going to make strides to convert them.

With the current system, yes, but things would be different if we limited the use of missionaries to prevent ahistorical conversions.

The classic example is England and Ireland especially when you keep getting events about plantations, displacements, Catholic rebellions, oppression in an Ireland that has been converted decades or centuries earlier (very easy due to small populations and Elizabeth). Obviously, one could always change the event triggers however to me something like this suggests that the conversion system needs to be made harder or revamped.