Winter Teaser #3 - Cultural Traditions

[grommile]

Sardinian, the literally most-divergent of Western (i.e. non-Balkan) Romance

In the modern era, at least, I'm reasonably sure that title is properly awarded to French.

 

[Seclouds]

I'm interested on the detail of Pirate Tradition on the example picture and how the Visi-gothic Tradition feature works in the new dlc.
Maybe I will run a new game to let the Iceland culture to have a Visi-gothic Tradition feature.

 

[Jayvee94]

I'm of the impression many of the Italian "Dialects" evolved independently from Latin. If they're dialects at all they are of Latin and not Italian. Modern Standard Italian is based on Tuscan.

In game there is a Latin Culture Group. This includes:

• Cisalpine (k_venice, k_italy, k_romagna, d_savoie)
• Italian (d_pisa, d_toscana)
• Lombard (d_spoleto)
• Roman (extinct - referring to the culture of Western Rome)
• Sardinian (k_sardinia)
• Sicilian (will assimilate on its own in game in k_sicily)

I've seen the disagreements on how these should be named. If you want to change the naming, please consider the culture of the localities.

While I'm not sure about whether the culture of Italia is unified or not, I would like to think they kept it loosely separated for game design purposes. Paradox wouldn't want you to unify Italy too easily.

 

[Viridianus]

Btw at the time also adriatic current Croatian and Slovenian coasts were Italian of dialect ( dalmatico and Istro ) as well as the Ragusa maritime republic

Dalmatian isn't quite Italian linguistically (indeed, many consider their language a divergent Balkan Romance instead) and only tentatively so culturally (like Venetia, it looked to Byzantium more than most of Italy).

In south I could see a Norman-talian culture .

You do see it, it's just called "Sicilian" (and also includes Arabic influences). See wiki on "Sicilian melting pot".

I am more for those like Ue4 than a nonexhisting cisalpine one.

As you were told above, the "Cisalpine" culture is not non-existent; culture of cities of Northern Italy is indeed sufficiently different from those in the South, even though they do have commonalities, too. Be sure to always distinguish between your gripes with names and gripes with what they're supposed to represent.

One could possibly go with the EU4 culture set up which has the following cultures: Dalmatian, Ligurian, Lombard, Maltese, Neapolitan, Piedmontese, Romagnol, Sardinian, Sicilian, Tuscan, Umbrian, Venetian. But that might be a bit too much.

EU4 generally has a greater cultural density. CK3 tends to bob around one culture per kingdom, and there are reasons for that.

In the modern era, at least, I'm reasonably sure that title is properly awarded to French.

French is a mess But seriously... I doubt that. French, unlike Sardinian and like all other Western Romance, has:
1)Definite article based on ille not ipse (though here, Balearic Catalan groups with Sardinian);
2)Merger of Latin long e and Latin short i (Sardinian merges long e with short e and long i with short i instead);
3)Far more Germanisms;
4)Palatalization of Latin velars (cf. Sardinian kentu vs. French cent [sɑ̃]);
5)Wh-movement (Sardinian allows for non-echo questions of the form "I saw what?" in more contexts than most Romance, it seems; though this might be a recording/prescriptive pressure issue, as you can find such matrix questions in, say, English texts but not English grammar descriptions);
6)No paragogic (inserted under certain conditions) final vowels after consonants copying the previous vowel.

 

[grommile]

French is a mess But seriously... I doubt that.

Wikipedia agrees with me (and further describes Sardinian as the least divergent from Latin) and has citations for the claim

 

[ssorgatem]

yeah, Sardinian is not the most *divergent*, but the first to split off from Proto-Romance, and thus not sharing many innovations shared by all other Romance languages, and then having some not shared by any other. So it's the most different Romance language, but not because of having diverged, but because the rest have diverged a lot more.

And, by chance, that also makes it the least divergent from Proto-Romance, or Classical Latin (whichever you choose for the comparison) compared to all other extant Romance languages.

Kinda like Icelandic vs the rest of North Germanic languages: Icelandic is the odd one, but because of being more conservative.
I guess islands tend to do that o languages.

 

[Viridianus]

Wikipedia agrees with me (and further describes Sardinian as the least divergent from Latin) and has citations for the claim

Do read carefully. I listed it as divergent from other Romance, not from Latin; indeed, much of that divergence is caused by its being archaic, that is, rather close to Latin but some of it is due to its own innovations; ancestor-offspring "divergence" (so, in this example, Latin-Sardinian) would actually not quite be well-defined.

yeah, Sardinian is not the most *divergent*, but the first to split off from Proto-Romance, and thus not sharing many innovations shared by all other Romance languages, and then having some not shared by any other. So it's the most different Romance language, but not because of having diverged, but because the rest have diverged a lot more.

That's not what "divergent" means (English Wikipedia's article on divergence is plain-wrong here, which is not something I get to say about Wikipedia often; Russian page's definition correct but I don't expect you to read that; German Divergenz is close but relates to specific phenomena rather than languages as a whole). The first to split off means exactly that it diverged earlier, that its point of divergence is earlier (hence the name).

So, there seems to have appeared a misunderstanding between me and you two, rather than a factual disagreement. Indeed, the state of facts is correctly described by @ssorgatem in the quote after the word "but". Yet I maintain that's exactly what "the most divergent" means: degree of divergence is technically a symmetric relation for any pair of languages (French is as divergent from Sardinian as Sardinian is divergent from French), but when you take several languages, you will find that, say, French-Italian, French-Occitan, French-Spanish, etc. are all pairs of lesser divergence than French-Sardinian, Italian-Sardinian, etc.; so the language which gets the highest degree of divergence in its pairs combined gets the "most divergent" crown (normally by being among the first to split off, although, say, the North Germanic situation is arguably more complex).

 

[ssorgatem]

Do read carefully. I listed it as divergent from other Romance, not from Latin; indeed, much of that divergence is caused by its being archaic, that is, rather close to Latin but some of it is due to its own innovations; ancestor-offspring "divergence" (so, in this example, Latin-Sardinian) would actually not quite be well-defined.

That's not what "divergent" means (English Wikipedia's article on divergence is plain-wrong here, which is not something I get to say about Wikipedia often; Russian page's definition correct but I don't expect you to read that; German Divergenz is close but relates to specific phenomena rather than languages as a whole). The first to split off means exactly that it diverged earlier, that its point of divergence is earlier (hence the name).

So, there seems to have appeared a misunderstanding between me and you two, rather than a factual disagreement. Indeed, the state of facts is correctly described by @ssorgatem in the quote after the word "but". Yet I maintain that's exactly what "the most divergent" means: degree of divergence is technically a symmetric relation for any pair of languages (French is as divergent from Sardinian as Sardinian is divergent from French), but when you take several languages, you will find that, say, French-Italian, French-Occitan, French-Spanish, etc. are all pairs of lesser divergence than French-Sardinian, Italian-Sardinian, etc.; so the language which gets the highest degree of divergence in its pairs combined gets the "most divergent" crown (normally by being among the first to split off, although, say, the North Germanic situation is arguably more complex).

So by "divergent" yout don't mean how much it has diverged from their last common ancestor (which is how "divergence" is commonly used in linguistics and in biology), but how dissimilar they are. Your deinition of "divergence" is what we in data science call "distance" or "dissimilarity", while "divergence" refers to the distance from/to a common starting point (that is, the opposite of convergence, where 2 entities reach the same point from different starting poins.)

A cursory inspection o the Russian version of the article you linked (through google translate) dooesn't seemt o support your interpretation, and neither do the wikipedia page on divergence (statistics) nor the Merriam-Webster dicionary entry.

 

[Viridianus]

(which is how "divergence" is commonly used in linguistics and in biology)

We clearly have different linguists around us then because, being a linguist and talking with linguists, I normally see exactly the usage of divergence as the opposite of convergence - and both are defined in terms of diverging/converging objects, not the common ancestor/common result of convergence. Indeed, for me "how archaea diverged from bacteria" makes sense while "how archaea/bacteria diverged from LUCA" does not. Just like "how Old Vladimir dialect and Old Novgorod dialect converged into Russian" makes sense while "how Russian converged from Old Vladimir and Old Novgorod dialects" (to describe the same partially-hypothetical situation) does not. I guess (some) linguists love themselves parallelism in government of related terms

(Or, going further away with the metaphor, brother and sister are divergent from each other, not from their parents, and their parents converged to create them, rather then them converging from them.)

A cursory inspection o the Russian version of the article you linked (through google translate) dooesn't seemt o support your interpretation

"Применительно к языковым образованиям термин дивергенция обозначает историческое расхождение двух и более родственных языков, диалектов или вариантов литературных норм одного языка. Процесс дивергенции противопоставляется, тесно связанному с ним, процессу языковой конвергенции." (Of linguistic formations, the term "divergence" signifies historical split of two or more related language, dialects, or versions of literary norms of one language. Process of divergence is opposed to closely related process of linguistic convergence.)

Your deinition of "divergence" is what we in data science call "distance" or "dissimilarity", while "divergence" refers to the distance from/to a common starting point (that is, the opposite of convergence, where 2 entities reach the same point from different starting poins.)

My statistics skills are rusty but a cursory read does not allow me to infer that much from Wiki (though it does suggest its being asymmetrical in statistics, it also suggests its being a distance metric - things I previously considered incompatible). (Frankly, I felt like I was reading the "Lobachevsky" song lyrics )
----
Anyway, this is too long a discussion for a situation where the facts are agreed upon so I'll stop now.

 

[mortache]

Hopefully the tooltip will also detail special cultural stuff like Greeks being able to castrate and blind prisoners which I wouldn't have known if I hadn't played CK2

 

[nickpenny1999]

Hello and welcome to another winter teaser

In this short teaser today I bring you more cultural traditions as well as previews of some cultures we haven’t shown you before.

Chanson De Geste
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In some cases cultural traditions are regional variants on more generically available one. Instead of the more widely available Martial Admiration tradition that we’ve shown previously the cultures that have a Frankish heritage will have access to the Chanson de Geste tradition. This both grants access to the Valets innovation when the Late Medieval era comes around and highlights the role of troubadours in the French region.

Performative Honor
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For those that have Flavor Pack 1 the Shield Maiden related content is now connected to a new cultural tradition called Performative Honor, which is available for cultures of the North Germanic Heritage.

Persian Culture
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One of the traditions of Persian culture highlights the prevalence of philosophical thought among its members, another gives access to a royal gardener court position.

Butr Culture
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Cultures with a Berber heritage and a presence in desert or dry lands will have access to the Desert Ribats tradition, which unlocks the Mulathamun Man at arms type among other things.

Catalan Culture
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Maritime Mercantilism is a tradition that makes coastal holdings more useful to a culture, as seen here in the lineup of Catalan Traditions.

Cisalpine Culture
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Any culture that has the Roman culture somewhere in its ancestry can adopt the Republican Legacy tradition which is a special version of the more generally available Parochialism cultural tradition. This highlights the special Republican heritage in the italic sphere and will let you create a number of Republican vassals out of your counts who will become overseers, or Podestàs.

Mongol Culture
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The Steppe Tolerance tradition highlights that for some cultures what your subjects believe was not as important as it was for others…



And that was all for this short winter teaser. These are some of my personal favorite traditions in the update, I hope you found them as interesting as I do!

how will combining cultures affect cultural regiment types?

 

[Tuo]

how will combining cultures affect cultural regiment types?

Those Men at Arms are moved from innovations into traditions, and hybrid cultures will have a selection of traditions between the traditions of their parent cultures.