Winter Teaser #3 - Cultural Traditions

[NLQuincy]

Occitan is an oc language, not an oïl language. It's right there in the name

(And Catalan is rather closer to Occitan than to Castilian.)

I wasn't sure what "Oïl" and "Oc" meant, so thank you for explaining! I edited my post to fix the mistake.

 

[grommile]

I wasn't sure what "Oïl" and "Oc" meant, so thank you for explaining! I edited my post to fix the mistake.

It's about how the word for "yes" (Classical Latin doesn't have a word for yes, so people used short phrases such as "hoc est illud") evolved in the early Romance vernaculars.

In northern France, "hoc est illud" became "oïl", which ultimately became modern French "oui".

In southern France and Catalunya, "hoc est illud" became "oc".

In Italy and the rest of Iberia, the yes-phrase (not sure if it was the same one) collapsed down to "si".

 

[AlfredRWallace]

If cultures have diverged or hybridized for long enough, will new languages start to develop too? Because for example, the D'Oïl language diverged from Vulgar Latin and has some Gallic and Frankish influences right? That would also mean a language like that would eventually evolve to become French overtime, but for example the Normans who spoke the Norse language would try to learn D'Oïl but because of linguistic differences it would form it's own "dialect" and maybe even it's own language "Norman"? I'm terrible at giving examples so forgive me if I said anything wrong here.

My point is languages, like cultures are never constant and should also evolve, mix and diverge during these times. It all depends on region, parental language and languages it shares lands with.

Custom cultures should if they have diverged or hybridized for long enough be able to kind of "create" their own language and it should be named after them. Maybe you can even pick its structure if you diverge? For example, choosing between a Germanic or Romance origin in the case of a Frankish & Vulgar Latin mixed language emergence?

Vulgar Latin ---> Iberian Region: Iberian Romance. ---> Castillian, Leonese, Aragonese, Galician, Portuguese, (Iberian Romance + Arabic) Mozarabic.
Vulgar Latin ---> Gaul Region: D'Oïl, D'Oc. ---> French, Occitan, (D'Oïl or French + Norse) Norman, (D'Oc + Iberian Romance) Catalan.
Frankish ---> Lowlands Region: Old Dutch. ---> Middle Dutch. ---> Dutch, (D'Oïl or French + Old or Middle Dutch) Flemish.

I'm not sure how accurate I am here btw, I'm just trying to provide an example here so again sorry if I made a mistake or if I'm being confusing.

They have said they wont do this. I think the argument they gave is that there isn't one point at which a new language starts, it's a continuous development and changing a language halfway through the game would be arbitrary anyway.

So there is no Old Dutch or Middle Dutch, but just Dutch, because to the people speaking it, it would always be just Dutch (Flemish is mutually intelligible with Dutch, so it doesn't deserve to be it's own language). Old and Middle are later invented terminology by linguists. For most languages in the game this systems works perfectly fine. I was afraid they would group a lot of cultures into using the same language (Iberian instead of Spanish, Portuguese and just French instead of Oïl and Occitan), but that's not the case. It is strange that they use the term Vulgar though. That is mostly a linguistic term I think. Nobody ever called the language they spoke Vulgar Italian or Vulgar D'Oïl.

There might be some languages in the game that emerge with historically emergent cultures, but I don't expect it. Danish, Norwegian and Swedish for example, but with the high mutual intelligibility of these languages even today it probably makes more sense to group them together.

 

[WeissRaben]

In Italy and the rest of Iberia, the yes-phrase (not sure if it was the same one) collapsed down to "si".

"Sic est" - "it is so".

 

[dervishefendy]

Why max number of tradition differentiete by culture? Can it be increased?

 

[Blodhevn]

Why max number of tradition differentiete by culture? Can it be increased?

View attachment 788351

after a quick check, all the 6 slot traditions are in the early medieval stage. while mongol culture is only tribal. might not be related tho.

 

[InsidiousMage]

Why max number of tradition differentiete by culture? Can it be increased?

It increases every time you enter a new era. So going from Tribal to Early Medieval will give you another tradition.

 

[sandro chronicler]

Interesting that culture with Performative Honor would be less effective if martial gender doctrine is equal. Considering that ShieldMaiden/Shieldswain trait is quite useful (especially in duels)...

 

[Tiax]

Interesting that culture with Performative Honor would be less effective if martial gender doctrine is equal. Considering that ShieldMaiden/Shieldswain trait is quite useful (especially in duels)...

Honestly equal gender doctrines feel barely functional a lot of the time. I don't think the equal doctrines are given any thought when designing new mechanics.

 

[MinecraftMinun]

That's because the Byzantine title history goes all the way back to Augustus. I believe all of the Classical emperors are culturally Roman as well. The game generally includes something if it relates to a relevant deceased character but even then a couple of dead religions get grouped together as a generic Paganism. There is no one who needs to be Gallo-Roman therefore its not included in the game.

Whoops, meant to type roman culture, not religion, though the latter is true.
But yes, I do see your point

 

[InsidiousMage]

Whoops, meant to type roman culture, not religion, though the latter is true.
But yes, I do see your point

The funny thing is, the Byzantines, both elites and commoners, considered themselves "Roman" not "Greek" but that doesn't really work in the way the game presents culture, which works more like ethnicity.

 

[Rui_MCMXCVII]

For a ruler who spent 5000 prestige to pick up a new tradition for one's culture, maybe he/she deserve a nick as well...? You basically left a mark on your own people

 

[JacobiteJames]

I was talking about being able to fight outside of my realm. As I said, as a Norse ruler in Sicily I was able to duel Danish king because he cheated on his wife. So I just came across the Europe to him, beat the shit out of him and then go home

Can also declare war on them before you win the duel and imprison them, then click said event, for instant victory

 

[QuinnMallory]

Hello and welcome to another winter teaser

In this short teaser today I bring you more cultural traditions as well as previews of some cultures we haven’t shown you before.

Chanson De Geste
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In some cases cultural traditions are regional variants on more generically available one. Instead of the more widely available Martial Admiration tradition that we’ve shown previously the cultures that have a Frankish heritage will have access to the Chanson de Geste tradition. This both grants access to the Valets innovation when the Late Medieval era comes around and highlights the role of troubadours in the French region.

Performative Honor
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For those that have Flavor Pack 1 the Shield Maiden related content is now connected to a new cultural tradition called Performative Honor, which is available for cultures of the North Germanic Heritage.

Persian Culture
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One of the traditions of Persian culture highlights the prevalence of philosophical thought among its members, another gives access to a royal gardener court position.

Butr Culture
View attachment 786107​

Cultures with a Berber heritage and a presence in desert or dry lands will have access to the Desert Ribats tradition, which unlocks the Mulathamun Man at arms type among other things.

Catalan Culture
View attachment 786108​

Maritime Mercantilism is a tradition that makes coastal holdings more useful to a culture, as seen here in the lineup of Catalan Traditions.

Cisalpine Culture
View attachment 786109​

Any culture that has the Roman culture somewhere in its ancestry can adopt the Republican Legacy tradition which is a special version of the more generally available Parochialism cultural tradition. This highlights the special Republican heritage in the italic sphere and will let you create a number of Republican vassals out of your counts who will become overseers, or Podestàs.

Mongol Culture
View attachment 786110​

The Steppe Tolerance tradition highlights that for some cultures what your subjects believe was not as important as it was for others…



And that was all for this short winter teaser. These are some of my personal favorite traditions in the update, I hope you found them as interesting as I do!

I hope not having Steppe Tolerance will make it harder to conquer, hold, and develop steppe lands. That would prevent Byzantium from ahistorically blobbing across the Pontic Steppe.

 

[Jayvee94]

Does the phrasing here imply Frankish isn't considered Germanic in game terms?

Frankish culture is neither in the North, Central nor West Germanic Culture Group. It belongs to a separate Frankish Culture group which includes French and Occitan (and Norman).

I wonder if you'll be able to make German culture based from combos from Franconian, Saxon, Swabian or Bavarian cultures?

There is a German culture included in game. I believe it will hybridize in a similar way as the Sicilian Culture in game.

Edit: This is in Gameplay Terms

 

[IndigoRage]

Frankish language is neither in the North, Central nor West Germanic Language Group. It belongs to a separate Frankish Language group which includes French and Occitan (and Norman French).

I really hope this is a gameplay answer because I thought you meant real life for a second and I was about to roast you.

I think it would make more sense to do Gallo-Romance.

 

[Jayvee94]

I really hope this is a gameplay answer because I thought you meant real life for a second and I was about to roast you.

I think it would make more sense to do Gallo-Romance.

Sorry, I confused language with culture

Edited my post

 

[JacobiteJames]

I hope not having Steppe Tolerance will make it harder to conquer, hold, and develop steppe lands. That would prevent Byzantium from ahistorically blobbing across the Pontic Steppe.

Or just bring ck2 thing of steppe provinces with no fort will be lost on ruler death

 

[Republic of Mercury]

I hope not having Steppe Tolerance will make it harder to conquer, hold, and develop steppe lands. That would prevent Byzantium from ahistorically blobbing across the Pontic Steppe.

I doubt it, since there's no indication that the tradition affects anything besides religion.

 

[Ezumiyr]

In northern France, "hoc est illud" became "oïl", which ultimately became modern French "oui".

It's just hoc ille.
Hoc est illud turning into "oil" or "oc" wouldn't make sense phonologically.