Weekly Dev Diary #8 - Map Changes and Modding | Page 18

Memoryofthelost · Jul 4, 2015

TheDungen said:
Well it's not that the world is round it's that the sun rather than the earth is at the centre of the solar system that they don't like. But yeah that makes little sense for non christians.

ngppgn said:
Why so? The sphericity of Earth was known since at least Aristotle in mediterranean europe. If there is ignorant clergy who cling to his basic intuitions and so claims Earth is plain, this can happen in an religion. Such obtuse clergy can be irritated by claims of sphericity too, whatever the creed.

So why would specifically make no sense as norse? Is the sphericity of Earth widely held true in rwligious twxts, myths, or something else,which would not be open to controversy?

Edit: And the same could be asked with respect to heliocentrism. Why would that make no sense for a non-christian (or perhapd, non-abrahamic)

The first discovery that the earth was round and rotated around the sun was discovered multiple times before Christianity and was suppressed by both the scientific community and their respective pagan churches because it threat because it was not the same as their religious texts at the time.

ngppgn · Jul 4, 2015

Memoryofthelost said:
The first discovery that the earth was round and rotated around the sun was discovered multiple times before Christianity and was suppressed by both the scientific community and their respective pagan churches because it threat because it was not the same as their religious texts at the time.

The scientific comunity? Not the astronomical One, do you mean right? And what do you mean by pagan churches? Which religions are you refering here too specifically?

Moreover, the translation movement of earth around the d'un was NOT discovered once, let alone several times, in the pagan europe. The only remotely similar things were some theories and speculations, like the ones of Hipsrcus, and perhaps some islàmic astronomy school (my history of astronomy is getting rusty, bit of that much I'm sure, of you have sources pointing inother directions, I'd be very interesting in checking t'hem, but perhaps we are derailing the thread a bit too much....

TheDungen · Jul 4, 2015

ngppgn said:
Why so? The sphericity of Earth was known since at least Aristotle in mediterranean europe. If there is ignorant clergy who cling to his basic intuitions and so claims Earth is plain, this can happen in an religion. Such obtuse clergy can be irritated by claims of sphericity too, whatever the creed.

So why would specifically make no sense as norse? Is the sphericity of Earth widely held true in rwligious twxts, myths, or something else,which would not be open to controversy?

Edit: And the same could be asked with respect to heliocentrism. Why would that make no sense for a non-christian (or perhapd, non-abrahamic)

Because pagans didn't have a formalised structure of beliefs. So while yes most pagans did belive the world was flat and the sun moving around it they would have been less likely to do what the pope did to gallileo. Some people belive the sun is in the centre so ok who cares would have been the reaction. They may have considered the guy crazy but not a threat.

No reason it makes less sense for norse, it makes no sense for anyone without an orginized clergy. And the event is about heliocentrism not about flat versus round earth.

TheDungen · Jul 4, 2015

Memoryofthelost said:
The first discovery that the earth was round and rotated around the sun was discovered multiple times before Christianity and was suppressed by both the scientific community and their respective pagan churches because it threat because it was not the same as their religious texts at the time.

Pagans don't have religious texts, their religion was one of oral tradition. The writings we have are very late and more of an attempt to preserve the stories as they were told at a specific time and place than actuall religious texts. Most pagans would probably have thought you crazy for suggesting the world was round but there was no religious athority to persecute you. And non pagans did not belive the world was flat. They were very well aware that it was round, they however belived that the earth was in the centre on the universe.

TheDungen · Jul 4, 2015

ngppgn said:
The scientific comunity? Not the astronomical One, do you mean right? And what do you mean by pagan churches? Which religions are you refering here too specifically?

Moreover, the translation movement of earth around the d'un was NOT discovered once, let alone several times, in the pagan europe. The only remotely similar things were some theories and speculations, like the ones of Hipsrcus, and perhaps some islàmic astronomy school (my history of astronomy is getting rusty, bit of that much I'm sure, of you have sources pointing inother directions, I'd be very interesting in checking t'hem, but perhaps we are derailing the thread a bit too much....

Well at the time of gallileo it was a known truth that the world was round. He was persecuted for heliocentrism. I don't know how long the christians were aware of that before him but the pagans as you say belived in a flat world (at least the norse ones).

Thure · Jul 4, 2015

TheDungen said:
Well at the time of gallileo it was a known truth that the world was round. He was persecuted for heliocentrism. I don't know how long the christians were aware of that before him but the pagans as you say belived in a flat world (at least the norse ones).

Actually Galileo was persecuted because he was anti-papal... and because he didn't had good evidences for his theory. Actually... there were some medieval priests and scholars who try to claim heliocentrism. But they don't had enought evidences to replace the geocentrism. (And yes with medieval knowledge and without helpful things like binoculars etc it was possible to scientific explain geocentrism).

TheDungen · Jul 4, 2015

I'd like a source on that gallileo's data was insufficient. You don't thrash one of the greatest minds of history without backing that up. Especially considering the conclusions that gallileo drew were almost correct (he predicted circular motions of the planets while we of course now know them to be elliptical).

Slavicist · Jul 4, 2015

CzokletMuss said:
Perhaps I will buy this DLC after all!

Isn't that coming with the free patch?

Thure · Jul 4, 2015

TheDungen said:
I'd like a source on that gallileo's data was insufficient. You don't thrash one of the greatest minds of history without backing that up. Especially considering the conclusions that gallileo drew were almost correct (he predicted circular motions of the planets while we of course now know them to be elliptical).

I don't say Galileo was wrong. I just said that he couldn't prove his claims enough. Actually the pope was even a supporter of Galileo as first... until Galileo fooled him (accidently or intented we don't know)

Oh and you know that one of the most important arguments for Galileo was the tides? Actually... Isaac Newton was the one who could prove that heliocentrism is the right model. And after this Pope Benedict XIV removed the ban of Galileo posthumously.

TheDungen · Jul 4, 2015

Thure said:
I don't say Galileo was wrong. I just said that he couldn't prove his claims enough. Actually the pope was even a supporter of Galileo as first... until Galileo fooled him (accidently or intented we don't know)

Oh and you know that one of the most important arguments for Galileo was the tides? Actually... Isaac Newton was the one who could prove that heliocentrism is the right model. And after this Pope Benedict XIV removed the ban of Galileo posthumously.

Isaac newton figured out the eliptical orbits but like most of his 'discoveries' someone else had suggested it before him. Newton is great because he figured out how things came together but very little of his work is original.

richvh · Jul 4, 2015

Kepler figured out elliptical orbits. I never saw that attributed to Newton.

Lord_P · Jul 4, 2015

Sparticulous said:
wooo can be manichean warlord in tamil basin now!

That would be one heck of a migration!

SirRitter · Jul 4, 2015

TheDungen said:
Well it's not that the world is round it's that the sun rather than the earth is at the centre of the solar system that they don't like. But yeah that makes little sense for non christians.

Makes little sense in general. It is a well known historical fact that nobody in the medieval period believed the earth was flat.

SirRitter · Jul 4, 2015

TheDungen said:
I'd like a source on that gallileo's data was insufficient. You don't thrash one of the greatest minds of history without backing that up. Especially considering the conclusions that gallileo drew were almost correct (he predicted circular motions of the planets while we of course now know them to be elliptical).

"Galileo was persecuted because the Church hated science and felt threatened by heliocentrism" is an old myth. Moreover Galileo was ironically a devou Catholic who had ample opportunity to escape italy but decided to face the inquisition. He was however somewhat of a spoied brat who threw a hissy fit that eventually led to all the drama. Remember he was not the first to write about Heliocentrism, Copernicus has that honor and he had no problems(in fact his book was dedicated to the pope).

http://www.astronomynotes.com/history/GalileoAffair.html

http://www.unav.es/cryf/galileoaffair.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/matt-j-rossano/christian-church-science-history_b_932986.html

Z-Z-Z · Jul 4, 2015

I think if you could play as a courtier, declare an adventure and, if you were lowborn, fabricate evidence of a noble house (like the ones generated by inviting a noble to court)

Teutonic_Thrash · Jul 4, 2015

SirRitter said:
Remember he was not the first to write about Heliocentrism, Copernicus has that honor and he had no problems(in fact his book was dedicated to the pope).

http://www.astronomynotes.com/history/GalileoAffair.html

http://www.unav.es/cryf/galileoaffair.html

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/matt-j-rossano/christian-church-science-history_b_932986.html

Actually it was an Islamic polymath who laid some of the groundwork for heliocentrism. I'll try and find his name.

Teutonic_Thrash · Jul 4, 2015

Nasir al-Din al-Tusi was the one I was thinking of, though it turns out a lot of people have come close before Copernicus.

Vokasak · Jul 4, 2015

Teutonic_Thrash said:
Actually it was an Islamic polymath who laid some of the groundwork for heliocentrism. I'll try and find his name.

Teutonic_Thrash said:
Nasir al-Din al-Tusi was the one I was thinking of, though it turns out a lot of people have come close before Copernicus.

If "coming close" or "laying the groundwork" counted in cases like this, then Newton vs Libnitz for who invented/discovered calculus is won squarely by Archimedes.

Edit: Also plz, if not in this thread then in the next dev diary, let's see some of those cultural/religious/de jure maps!

killcreak · Jul 4, 2015

grisamentum said:
It has little to do with balancing, since you can revoke all titles from a prisoner anyway. Or you can cause their heir to inherit through execution.

That's simply not correct. There are multiple conditions under which you cannot revoke any title from a prisoner.

Sparticulous · Jul 5, 2015

Lord_P said:
That would be one heck of a migration!

I think there will be manicheans starting in the tamil basin. I hope they make a seperate gnostic branch for them now that there will be so many manicheans!

Major

Field Marshal

Field Marshal

Field Marshal

Field Marshal

Chartularius Hamburgensis

Field Marshal

Field Marshal

Chartularius Hamburgensis

Field Marshal

Preserver of the Light

Field Marshal

First Lieutenant

First Lieutenant

Supreme Leader of the Far Eastern Republic

Diadochi King

Diadochi King

Major

First Lieutenant

Colonel