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Greetings, fellow gamers! Today's Horse Lords dev diary is about Tributary states, Succession in Nomad realms and Dynamic Mercenaries... but let us start with Tributary states!

The Crusader Kings vassalage system has served us fairly well, but in our design discussions, we often return to the problem of "degree"; that is, what are the terms of the contract, exactly? How tight should the contract be in non-Feudal realms, etc. Various improvements have been suggested, such as a "vassalage strength" value (a bit similar to Crown Authority, but for each vassal.) However, most of these ideas stumble on their complexity and the required amount of micro-management. When we were talking about the Nomads of the steppes, though, we really needed a looser type of subordination than outright vassalage. That is why we decided to introduce the concept of Tributaries (which we originally conceived of as a Nomad-only power, but soon chose to make available to all rulers as long as you have the expansion.)

Crusader Kings II - Tributaries.jpg


In Horse Lords, there are two new Casus Bellis related to Tributaries; "Make Tributary" and "Free Tributary" (doing exactly what they sound like.) On the map, the names of Tributary states are no longer shown, though they retain their own colors in the Realms map mode. Tributaries pay a monthly tax to their suzerain and cannot refuse the suzerain's call to wars. However, the suzerain is also expected to protect their tributaries. Apart from this, tributaries are still autonomous. A tributary can only have one suzerain (though the suzerain can be a regular vassal of another ruler's.) The tributary status ends on the death of either ruler, and tributaries can declare wars to free themselves, of course...

Now, let us return to the steppes and talk a bit about their unique form of succession... In reality, this was a complex matter that could be represented in many different ways, but since we already have various elective forms of succession, we decided to make it a bit less direct and more distinct (and no, it is not the horrible Ultimogeniture.:)) In short, among Nomads, the most prestigious son or brother inherits. Minors can inherit Clan rule, but not the tribal Khaganate. Prestige, you say? But isn't that a bit boring? Yes, the player should get some control over the choice of heir. That's why we are introducing the concept of Dynamic Mercenaries.

Crusader Kings II - Make me Proud.jpg


What you do, as a Nomad ruler, is send out your most promising sons and brothers to prove their mettle in the wide world. They will then take some of your Manpower and appear as a Mercenary Band, available for hire by rulers in the general region. As they earn money, the size of their regiment will increase. There are various new events for them as they experience adventures in the court of their employer, on distant battlefields, etc. You will receive notifications about the more significant escapades, and if you happen to be their employer, you are also likely to get some fascinating interactions. In general, dynamic mercenaries tend to increase their skills and gain Prestige, but it is, of course, also a dangerous life... The idea is to foster a strong heir by letting them prove their worth and gain enough Prestige to succeed you.

Crusader Kings II - Dynamic Mercs.jpg


The system with dynamic mercenaries is currently locked to Nomads only, but it is very easy to mod and we are likely to expand on it in future expansions. That's all for now folks. Next week; the Silk Road and Raiding Adventurers!
 

Kumicho

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In the past, there is only war... (We have discussed adding peaceful options though. :)

I'd definitely like to see either Tributary CBs be more powerful than traditional CB (since it's only a temporary thing), *or* the ability to peacefully "suggest" becoming a Tributary (ie, 10-1 manpower. Otherwise I'm not sure why I'd use a Tributary CB as opposed to a claim or Holy War? Even the Altaic invasion would be better, since you can just siege one holding in each county to get complete control of it...
 
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With regards to dynamic mercs, does this mean that the "interactions" that currently exist between the merc leader and the ruler that hired the band (the stuff that can happen if the lord goes bankrupt) will be moved from being hardcoded to the realm of moddability?
 

Johuotar

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Tributaries sound kinda underpowered. Rulers can die any time and the suzerain doesnt get anything if either person dies. Id imagine that if the tributary ends the deal for any reason then the suzerain should get better cb against the tributary.
 

Finnway

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What if your beloved son, the one you sent away to mercenary life, is contracted by your enemy? Will he attack his father?
Such a good question. I hope they have a unique flavor event for that.

Think about it this way: if he slays you in battle he comes into his inheritence =)
 
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Now I'm itching to hear about that Silk Road....
Is it going to be just a bunch of modifiers in certain provinces, or is it going to be a real feature that we can interact with?
If it comes with a bunch of events, it will definitely make Persia my favorite region to play in.

Silk Road is also a reason the Black Death came to Europe.
 
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Tributaries is awesome! Now my Golden Horde doesn't have to conquer Chagatai or Georgia; they can force them to be Tributaries for generations! They can also force Scandinavia and the Ilkhans to be Tributaries as well...

Dynamic Mercenaries is a neat addition too. I wanted to do something like that for this mod I'm working on. I think I know why Dynamic Mercenaries for everyone hasn't been introduced yet (You're probably waiting for China for the Dynamic Mercenaries). Still, this is a good addition.

Looking forward to taking the Blue Pill and seeing how far the Silk Road goes!;)
 

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This is just... Yes. This is exactly what hordes needed, another very well played move paradox.
 
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Playing adventurers is becoming more and more interesting. I tell you guys, with this DLC it's going to be real sweet to play landless characters, as long as you mod the possibility, for western realms as well, into it.
 
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Sounds very exciting.

How far away are dynamic mercenaries available though? My concern is that tribes (except raiding norse) are usually dirt poor, so if I send my son off as a mercenary and he's only available on the steppes so he can't be hired by a rich christian or muslim nation, he won't come back with much prestige.
 

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Looks great. Is China a part of the game? At least Northern china. Even Japan can be there. An interesting thing about the start dates in CK2 is that Japan is governed by the emperor not by the shogun. Even in 1337 Ashikaga were rebelling against Go Daigo
 
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The Mamluks were not mercenaries, they were slaves.

Bands of Slave soldiers were treated comparably to Mercenaries in the Muslim world. They were higher on the food chain than the majority of the population was in said countries and were not really treated like slaves is perceived to have been treated back then.
 
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Looks great. Is China a part of the game? At least Northern china. Even Japan can be there. An interesting thing about the start dates in CK2 is that Japan is governed by the emperor not by the shogun. Even in 1337 Ashikaga were rebelling against Go Daigo

I'm not sure how China could work in CK2. To my knowledge, it never had feudalism like Japan, Europe, and Muslim lands had. I could be mistaken, of course. My knowledge of Chinese history is far limited compared to that of Europe.
 
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I like the idea of a tributary system a great deal...

But can I just suggest that having a tributary end when either ruler dies would end up being incredibly frustrating? Get enough tributaries (as the Mongols will certainly do) and you'll end up having to constantly war to keep them...individually as they die off, and then all over again when the top nomad dies off. Considering that such wars are rarely quick, that could potentially put the nomadic empire in a constant loop where they rarely get to fight any other wars.

Perhaps it won't end up that way, I don't know. I suppose we'll have to see the system in action. But, from a player perspective, it sounds like eventually I would want to conquer the land outright just to have to keep from it constantly slipping out of my control.

An idea:

Perhaps, upon the death of either ruler, it fires an event where the tribute must be "renegotiated". A new tributary who is young, cowardly, or otherwise too frightened of the nomadic empire's power will simply renew the tribute. Likewise, a new nomadic ruler who is unimpressive or otherwise already has massive problems will see tributes slip from his grasp upon succession and will have to reclaim them.
 
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Rokh

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Excellent dev diary! However, I think tributary relations should be broken when both rulers die, instead of when either one of them does. Also, I support a "Suggest Tribute" diplomatic interaction, similar to the "Request Vassalization" one.
 
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Kapitalisti

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What if your beloved son, the one you sent away to mercenary life, is contracted by your enemy? Will he attack his father?

Hey, business is business.
 
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Kumicho

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A couple additional thoughts:

1) HOSTAGES??!?!? Please please PLEASE let the conquering horde demand hostages from it's tributary. That would prevent the tributary from hanging out for a couple years and then just revolting again. So something like 2-3 sons/daughters of the subjugated ruler are taken to ensure compliance, or at the very least a 10 year truce by both sides. This could even lead to a plot chain of rescuing the hostages if you have the Intrigue focus... Also acceptable: +75 subjugation bonus for 10 years?

2) Please let anyone subjugate anyone, regardless of rank. The Byzantine Empire frequently paid tribute to the barbarians to get them to leave them alone, and it'd be great to see the Golden Horde/Ilkhanate subjugate large empires and use that money/troops to invade other areas of the map.

3) Should your suzerain be able to call *all* of your troops, and would that lead to steamrolling the map (if #2 is correct)? I'd far rather see a crushing financial penalty than the ERE joining forces with the Caliph and the Golden Horde to steamroll the rest of Europe. I don't know of any Empire-level tributaries that contributed troops, but there were plenty who gave a LOT of money...

4) Could the Tributary CB replace the Invasion CB for feudal provinces? I feel like while an Invasion CB is applicable for tribal areas, forcing the Hordes to use a Tributary CB would be far more historically accurate, and would replicate the "vastly powerful but temporary" aspect of the Hordes that's missing in the current game.

5) Could there possibly be a financial CB? As in, similar to an embargo war, the Hordes could attack an empire just for cash, but it'd have to be a crippling amount. So ~2-3k gold to make the war end and the enemy to go away?

6) If there isn't a Financial CB, could that be worked into the White Peace option? So before the Horde completes its conquest, you could pay them a fantastic amount of money to go away?

Overall, SO EXCITED FOR THIS!!! :) :) :)
 
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Kumicho

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I like the idea of a tributary system a great deal...

But can I just suggest that having a tributary end when either ruler dies would end up being incredibly frustrating? Get enough tributaries (as the Mongols will certainly do) and you'll end up having to constantly war to keep them...individually as they die off, and then all over again when the top nomad dies off. Considering that such wars are rarely quick, that could potentially put the nomadic empire in a constant loop where they rarely get to fight any other wars.

Perhaps it won't end up that way, I don't know. I suppose we'll have to see the system in action. But, from a player perspective, it sounds like eventually I would want to conquer the land outright just to have to keep from it constantly slipping out of my control.

An idea:

Perhaps, upon the death of either ruler, it fires an event where the tribute must be "renegotiated". A new tributary who is young, cowardly, or otherwise too frightened of the nomadic empire's power will simply renew the tribute. Likewise, a new nomadic ruler who is unimpressive or otherwise already has massive problems will see tributes slip from his grasp upon succession and will have to reclaim them.

Honestly, I'd like it if the Tributary system only ended when the suzerain dies. If I'm an Emperor-level Mongol leader, head of tens/hundreds of thousands of screaming warriors, why should I care if Count Joe Schmoe dies? His offspring had *better* keep paying tribute.....

Now if that god-like Mongol leader dies and his successor is some whiney little 17 year old brat, you can bet that any and all tribute is going to stop until he reconquers everything.
 
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Zolotaya

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Yes, but very moddable.

Shouldn't the dynamic mercenaries be for Cathar women as well as men? Even if this is moddable, it should be standard in the vanilla game where Cathar women can be Marshals, Generals and most importantly heirs. If a horde converts to Catharism they will be restricted to a male succession without the ability to send out female heirs -- de facto because of the succession being based on prestige.

I hope this gets adjusted before release.
 
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