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Greetings, fellow gamers! Today's Horse Lords dev diary is about Tributary states, Succession in Nomad realms and Dynamic Mercenaries... but let us start with Tributary states!

The Crusader Kings vassalage system has served us fairly well, but in our design discussions, we often return to the problem of "degree"; that is, what are the terms of the contract, exactly? How tight should the contract be in non-Feudal realms, etc. Various improvements have been suggested, such as a "vassalage strength" value (a bit similar to Crown Authority, but for each vassal.) However, most of these ideas stumble on their complexity and the required amount of micro-management. When we were talking about the Nomads of the steppes, though, we really needed a looser type of subordination than outright vassalage. That is why we decided to introduce the concept of Tributaries (which we originally conceived of as a Nomad-only power, but soon chose to make available to all rulers as long as you have the expansion.)

Crusader Kings II - Tributaries.jpg


In Horse Lords, there are two new Casus Bellis related to Tributaries; "Make Tributary" and "Free Tributary" (doing exactly what they sound like.) On the map, the names of Tributary states are no longer shown, though they retain their own colors in the Realms map mode. Tributaries pay a monthly tax to their suzerain and cannot refuse the suzerain's call to wars. However, the suzerain is also expected to protect their tributaries. Apart from this, tributaries are still autonomous. A tributary can only have one suzerain (though the suzerain can be a regular vassal of another ruler's.) The tributary status ends on the death of either ruler, and tributaries can declare wars to free themselves, of course...

Now, let us return to the steppes and talk a bit about their unique form of succession... In reality, this was a complex matter that could be represented in many different ways, but since we already have various elective forms of succession, we decided to make it a bit less direct and more distinct (and no, it is not the horrible Ultimogeniture.:)) In short, among Nomads, the most prestigious son or brother inherits. Minors can inherit Clan rule, but not the tribal Khaganate. Prestige, you say? But isn't that a bit boring? Yes, the player should get some control over the choice of heir. That's why we are introducing the concept of Dynamic Mercenaries.

Crusader Kings II - Make me Proud.jpg


What you do, as a Nomad ruler, is send out your most promising sons and brothers to prove their mettle in the wide world. They will then take some of your Manpower and appear as a Mercenary Band, available for hire by rulers in the general region. As they earn money, the size of their regiment will increase. There are various new events for them as they experience adventures in the court of their employer, on distant battlefields, etc. You will receive notifications about the more significant escapades, and if you happen to be their employer, you are also likely to get some fascinating interactions. In general, dynamic mercenaries tend to increase their skills and gain Prestige, but it is, of course, also a dangerous life... The idea is to foster a strong heir by letting them prove their worth and gain enough Prestige to succeed you.

Crusader Kings II - Dynamic Mercs.jpg


The system with dynamic mercenaries is currently locked to Nomads only, but it is very easy to mod and we are likely to expand on it in future expansions. That's all for now folks. Next week; the Silk Road and Raiding Adventurers!
 

Te. Kenzo

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Tributaries could be cool also in EUIV
About made a son a mercenary, I think something like these should be exist also in europe, for example for sons that are not in the direct line of succession, to avoid some kind of risk (a little like decadende for muslim, only that the problem is a rebellion lead by cadets.)
 

classicist

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If we could ask a powerful state to become his tributary in order not to be swallowed, it would be great.
By doing this, you would avoid the tyrannic behavior of a regular liege who don't share your religion or culture.
Plus, the consequences are temporary, as you are released as soon as the ruler of either side dies.
I can see this happening way more often peacefully than by force. It seems a perfectly valid move to me.

I agree. A peaceful submission to a stronger power as a tributary relationship would not only model very well the status of Armenian rulers towards the Caliph and the Basileus, with the allegiance varying through time, but it would also make playing in that challenging area between the two superpowers much more realistic, nuanced, and - I have to add after yet another failed attempt to eke out a meager existence as the Mamikonians - much more fun too.
 
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Damarrocarion

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I agree. A peaceful submission to a stronger power as a tributary relationship would not only model very well the status of Armenian rulers towards the Caliph and the Basileus, with the allegiance varying through time, but it would also make playing in that challenging area between the two superpowers much more realistic, nuanced, and - I have to add after yet another failed attempt to eke out a meager existence as the Mamikonians - much more fun too.

Any particular ideas on what nations should start as tributaries in CM/Tog/1066 starts?
 

jim198913

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Tributaries pay a monthly tax to their suzerain and cannot refuse the suzerain's call to wars. However, the suzerain is also expected to protect their tributaries.

It sounds like they will make useful allies unlike the often useless ones we have now :)

So this means when playing as the King of England for example, I can have all of the British isles and beyond under my influence :D

Or perhaps even get the HRE to pay lots of tax to me and join my wars too :D

Protecting my tributaries shouldn't be a problem either :)
 

classicist

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Any particular ideas on what nations should start as tributaries in CM/Tog/1066 starts?

Now that would be a fitting new subject for a whole thread, actually... But a few ideas do suggest themselves:

CM start (769): Most of Khazar vassal relations, but that kind of falls within the obvious nomad portfolio. The Bagratid principate of Armenia should perhaps be a tributary to the malik of Armenia - or the kingdom-level Armenia to the Abbasids. Likewise, some of the easterly areas of the Abbasids caliphate could potentially be modelled through tributary relationship, instead. Offa's Mercia should perhaps hold suzerainty over tributaries of Kent, Lindsay, Sussex and Anglia.

ToG start (867): Some of the start-up viking domination in the Isles should perhaps be modelled through tributary systems. Khazars, also.

1066: In the Rurikid Russia much could be done in terms of tributary relationships already at this point. Would need quite extensive checking of the historical starting setups, though, what with the dominance fluctuating ever so wildly.

Further on: Scottish relationship with the King of the Isles sounds rather more like a tributary relationship than anything recognizably feudal. Imposing it was very much about an individual ruler's competence and success. Between 1138–1153 and 1159-1183 the Principality of Antioch should perhaps be made into a Byzantine tributary, and in the 1260's to enjoy Ilkhanate's suzerainty. Georgia as an Ilkhanate tributary is a must.

There are plenty of other cases, I'm sure, but I'm unfortunately in a bit of a hurry with deadlines right now - others are most welcome to continue contributing ideas.
 
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ARC Starscream

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What you do, as a Nomad ruler, is send out your most promising sons and brothers to prove their mettle in the wide world. They will then take some of your Manpower and appear as a Mercenary Band, available for hire by rulers in the general region.

Does anyone know if they could they be hired to fight against you?
 

ngppgn

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Still no answer to wether tributaries count towards vassal limit, or if perhaps there is another sort of limit to number of tributaries.

Also, no answer yet to wether tributaries, like normal vassals, need or need not be lower Rank than you. On the one Hand, the system would be VERY limited if you couldn't make tributaries of your same Rank (like England did with Scotland) In the other, it would be a bit odd to hace rulers of higher Rank than you be your tributaries.

Another question that would need answer is wether we have an effective way to tell, on the map itself, who does a realm pay tribute to.

Lastly, I assume that one can only be tributary if being independent, right?
 

Thure

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Also, no answer yet to wether tributaries, like normal vassals, need or need not be lower Rank than you. On the one Hand, the system would be VERY limited if you couldn't make tributaries of your same Rank (like England did with Scotland) In the other, it would be a bit odd to hace rulers of higher Rank than you be your tributaries.

Look at the first screenshot. You see a emperor (Khagan) as tributary of another emperor.
 
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Adrian Gaming

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On the map, the names of Tributary states are no longer shown, though they retain their own colors in the Realms map mode.
My.. It's beautiful. Please add this to all of your games forever.. Including EUIV...

Have my babies!
 
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DC123456789

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Another question that would need answer is wether we have an effective way to tell, on the map itself, who does a realm pay tribute to.

The overlord's realm name will stretch over all of its tributaries, you can see that in the screenshot.
 

ngppgn

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Look at the first screenshot. You see a emperor (Khagan) as tributary of another emperor.
s

Good catck. That seems promising. I still wonder if you can make tributaries of those of higher rank than you (e.g. a russian king becoming suzearin of a weanened horde)

The overlord's realm name will stretch over all of its tributaries, you can see that in the screenshot.[/QUOTE

I know this is the case with realms which are of the correct size and are contiguous, but, e.g. if France makes England its tributary, can we expect to see "France" printed over the british Isles? What if France (to keep on the example) makes a tributary out of Egypt? (I'm not sure the answer for instance like those would be yes, thus my asking).
 

TheDarkMaster

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Ideally they would only convert if they were unreformed pagans, and once they were Muslims, Christians, Dharmic or Reformed Pagans they would remain true to their faith.
I'd say up until there is a high profile conversion. Say, if the Khan reforms a pagan faith or if they're converted by a missionary then the hoard takes on that religion as an 'official' religion and converting away from it is much harder.
 

soluuloi

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Well, but if he can change sides and betray his employer, this will add some fun.

Or at least, you can pay him to step aside from the battle. Mercenary bands had been paid from one side to fight and the other side to not fight. That's as low as mercenaries go. Betraying the current master right of the bat is not unheard of but it's very rare.
 
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Czert

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how long it will take until this dlc is relased ? cant wait for it :).
 
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