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Greetings, fellow gamers! Today's Horse Lords dev diary is about Tributary states, Succession in Nomad realms and Dynamic Mercenaries... but let us start with Tributary states!

The Crusader Kings vassalage system has served us fairly well, but in our design discussions, we often return to the problem of "degree"; that is, what are the terms of the contract, exactly? How tight should the contract be in non-Feudal realms, etc. Various improvements have been suggested, such as a "vassalage strength" value (a bit similar to Crown Authority, but for each vassal.) However, most of these ideas stumble on their complexity and the required amount of micro-management. When we were talking about the Nomads of the steppes, though, we really needed a looser type of subordination than outright vassalage. That is why we decided to introduce the concept of Tributaries (which we originally conceived of as a Nomad-only power, but soon chose to make available to all rulers as long as you have the expansion.)

Crusader Kings II - Tributaries.jpg


In Horse Lords, there are two new Casus Bellis related to Tributaries; "Make Tributary" and "Free Tributary" (doing exactly what they sound like.) On the map, the names of Tributary states are no longer shown, though they retain their own colors in the Realms map mode. Tributaries pay a monthly tax to their suzerain and cannot refuse the suzerain's call to wars. However, the suzerain is also expected to protect their tributaries. Apart from this, tributaries are still autonomous. A tributary can only have one suzerain (though the suzerain can be a regular vassal of another ruler's.) The tributary status ends on the death of either ruler, and tributaries can declare wars to free themselves, of course...

Now, let us return to the steppes and talk a bit about their unique form of succession... In reality, this was a complex matter that could be represented in many different ways, but since we already have various elective forms of succession, we decided to make it a bit less direct and more distinct (and no, it is not the horrible Ultimogeniture.:)) In short, among Nomads, the most prestigious son or brother inherits. Minors can inherit Clan rule, but not the tribal Khaganate. Prestige, you say? But isn't that a bit boring? Yes, the player should get some control over the choice of heir. That's why we are introducing the concept of Dynamic Mercenaries.

Crusader Kings II - Make me Proud.jpg


What you do, as a Nomad ruler, is send out your most promising sons and brothers to prove their mettle in the wide world. They will then take some of your Manpower and appear as a Mercenary Band, available for hire by rulers in the general region. As they earn money, the size of their regiment will increase. There are various new events for them as they experience adventures in the court of their employer, on distant battlefields, etc. You will receive notifications about the more significant escapades, and if you happen to be their employer, you are also likely to get some fascinating interactions. In general, dynamic mercenaries tend to increase their skills and gain Prestige, but it is, of course, also a dangerous life... The idea is to foster a strong heir by letting them prove their worth and gain enough Prestige to succeed you.

Crusader Kings II - Dynamic Mercs.jpg


The system with dynamic mercenaries is currently locked to Nomads only, but it is very easy to mod and we are likely to expand on it in future expansions. That's all for now folks. Next week; the Silk Road and Raiding Adventurers!
 

richvh

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Doomdark said there are 2 tributary related CBs, one to make some state a tributary, another to free yourself from tributary status.
 
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classicist

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I hope they put in a way to turn others into tributaries via peaceful means and allow it as an option to end a war

Especially that latter option would be much hoped-for. Not of course in just any kind of war (claim wars, for instance), but certainly those with a subjugation CB.
 

Jorlem

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Maybe having recently been a tributary will make them more likely to surrender easier? If you don't need to force the AI up to 100% warscore, that would take a lot of the boredom out of regaining tributaries. Heck, if the power difference is big enough, maybe they'll just instantly surrender?
 

Carmilla

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Especially that latter option would be much hoped-for. Not of course in just any kind of war (claim wars, for instance), but certainly those with a subjugation CB.
Yes thats fair enough. It wouldn't make sense with all CB's thats very much true. Perhaps it should be allowed in invasion and -maybe- conquest wars as well? Perhaps holy wars too?
 
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TheDungen

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Scandinavian campaigns are also my least played - for the reasons you stated and also raiding is too micro-orientated to be fun. Pdox could have made the raiding much more in-depth and mature (without being micro-management heavy).
I disagree, active raiding is good because that's means that the norse factions are busy doing that isntead of blobbing. Which they do far to much anyway. The viking age for a norse player should be about getting wealth and prestige enough to come out as one of the potential holders of the kingdom when feudalisation kicks in.
 
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Zolotaya

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I disagree, active raiding is good because that's means that the norse factions are busy doing that isntead of blobbing. Which they do far to much anyway. The viking age for a norse player should be about getting wealth and prestige enough to come out as one of the potential holders of the kingdom when feudalisation kicks in.

I agree in principle. The reality I experience in the game is that I have to micro-manage each raid. The experience ingame is just to micro-management orientated - my threshold is different than other people and I understand that some (or even most (idk)) might enjoy that. Re the blobbing prevention - it fails in that regard.

Also taking of concubines might excite some - to me it is actually a turn-off.

Back on track - the greatest failure of raiding is that the most optimized raid is always going to be to go to Constantinople, Rome, Venice, Tunis or late-game Paris/Francia's capital. Not all raids should be focused on those cities. As a human, they are.

@Carmilla - try playing as a Cathar it allows you to be a general as a ruler and a woman and re-adds a bit of the missing dynamic. Not perfect solution but we both agree that Pdox likely will not change what we discussed before.
 
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Michaeldsuarez

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Will the AI be creating tributaries? Will the AI steppe nomads prefer making tributaries or will they prefer direct conquest? Will the AI Mongols demand hostages from tributary states? What events can players who are tributaries to the Mongols expect? Will there be events where the Mongols summon tributaries to visit the Mongol court? Can suzerains learn about the plots occurring in tributaries? Can the Mongols launch punitive campaigns against misbehaving tributaries? When a vassal does something wrong (engage in a plot, murder), their liege can imprison them, or failing that, go to war, so maybe a punitive war CB against tributaries who act dishonorably can exist for suzerains instead.

Also, can holy orders become tributaries?
 
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Don_Quigleone

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I love dynamic mercenaries. However I think it should be extended to all tribal states. I could imagine vikings doing this.

It could be extended to others too, but perhaps it wouldn't be seemly.
 

jim198913

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I love dynamic mercenaries. However I think it should be extended to all tribal states. I could imagine vikings doing this.

Which means me playing as a Christian or a muslim ruler, I will be able to hire the Vikings as mercenaries that could well be a very powerful force :D

However, I am concerned about the upcoming patches that could prevent me from hiring such mercenaries if I am playing as a ruler in Europe if mercenaries might be regional based now, when the new "regions" idea comes that is. For example, I might not be able to hire the Lithuanian band anymore playing as the king of England since they may come from the "Baltic region" and not the "british isles" region, of where my capital is based at.
 
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Ruwaard

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I'm looking forward to the tributary feature, since it can represent situations were nominally two rulers were the same tier, but one of them was the suzerain of the other. As for asking to become a tributary or accept an offer to become; IMHO would require a greater outside threat.
 
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jim198913

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On the map, the names of Tributary states are no longer shown, though they retain their own colors in the Realms map mode.

If you look at the first map closely everyone, you will find out that the "U" and the "M" in the name of CUMANIA actually overlaps into the tributary it owns. Although in my opinion this is not a very good example of this. A better example of this would be to show the "THE GOLDEN HORDE" name over the Russian Principalities around the years 1240-1260.
 

Carmilla

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I agree in principle. The reality I experience in the game is that I have to micro-manage each raid. The experience ingame is just to micro-management orientated - my threshold is different than other people and I understand that some (or even most (idk)) might enjoy that. Re the blobbing prevention - it fails in that regard.

Also taking of concubines might excite some - to me it is actually a turn-off.

Back on track - the greatest failure of raiding is that the most optimized raid is always going to be to go to Constantinople, Rome, Venice, Tunis or late-game Paris/Francia's capital. Not all raids should be focused on those cities. As a human, they are.

@Carmilla - try playing as a Cathar it allows you to be a general as a ruler and a woman and re-adds a bit of the missing dynamic. Not perfect solution but we both agree that Pdox likely will not change what we discussed before.
I know. That is why I tend to switch to Cathar as much as I do. If it had crusades, it'd make vanilla catholicism nearly worthless. It won't fix tribes though due to the hardcoded nonsense.
 

Rags17

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Having all your tributaries revolt whenever the leader dies would be too unstable and IMHO not very historical. Maybe instead have just any tributary that has a higher Prestige than the new lord rise in revolt, with the rest staying with the new guy.

This would encourage players to "groom" their successor for the rulership, but as we all know that can lead to it's own set of troubles ! :D
 

guillec87

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Cadet branches who could inherit (and no game ovver) is something I have been waiting from the earliest DLCs
 

Talq

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Having all your tributaries revolt whenever the leader dies would be too unstable and IMHO not very historical. Maybe instead have just any tributary that has a higher Prestige than the new lord rise in revolt, with the rest staying with the new guy.

The tributary status ends on the death of either ruler

Unless you have a great enthusiasm for fighting wars, you probably will not have too many tributaries (on an ongoing basis).
 

ernst_earnest

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So far this seems to be a great dlc love the tributaries and the new succession but I have one question for the Doomdark: will the new succession mechanic allow me to hand out lower titles to all my children or will all my titles go to the most prestigious dynasty member and thus prevent me from giving new acquiered land to brothers for example?
 

Archinorf

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If we could ask a powerful state to become his tributary in order not to be swallowed, it would be great.
By doing this, you would avoid the tyrannic behavior of a regular liege who don't share your religion or culture.
Plus, the consequences are temporary, as you are released as soon as the ruler of either side dies.
I can see this happening way more often peacefully than by force. It seems a perfectly valid move to me.
 
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