Hi again folks! It's a big day today with the release of the Common Sense expansion for EUIV! Naturally, we are releasing a patch for CKII in tandem, in order to keep the save game converter up-to-date.

Patch Notes here:

Spoiler

- Updated government calculation to be up to date with EU4 1.12
- Fixed the localisation issues on Mac and Linux with country names
- Ibadi is now its own main religion like it should be

NOTE: We are aware of an issue on Mac and Linux caused by EU4's recent engine upgrade, which broke EU4's ability to find the exported games from CK2. For now, you have to manually copy the exported save from eu4_export/mod to EU4's mod folder but this will be fixed ASAP by the EU4 team.

Now then, this time I thought I'd talk about the internal dynamics of the nomadic hordes. As I mentioned last time, Nomads use population and manpower rather than relying on levies and taxes from Holdings, so they tend to have a lot fewer normal vassals than other realms. To compensate for this, Nomad hordes rely on a variable number of member Clans instead. The Clans are similar to regular vassals in some respects, except that they also employ Manpower and Population (oh, and you are allowed to play as a vassal Clan too, of course), and each Clan has a special opinion called Clan Sentiment of the other Clans, separate from that of its chief. As a horde grows, it will be encouraged to increase the number of member Clans. Likewise, you can have too many Clans for the amount of available land.

Effective management of the Clans takes some effort due to their infighting and Sentiments. We have added a new screen to give you a proper overview of the situation. Red lines between the Clans indicate an ongoing "Blood Feud" and green lines a "Blood Oath". A Clan can only have one "blood brother" Clan, but many feuds. Feuds are started either by simple declaration, or by raiding one of the other Clans in the realm... Yes, even though you might all be serving same Khan, nothing stops you from raiding a fellow Clan's land! Blood Oaths are similar to marriage alliances; they last as long as both of the Clan Chiefs are alive, but they are only type of alliance that allows you to call another Clan to war in internal wars (and that includes the Khan!) Blood Feuds are much more persistent and can only be settled with a payment of blood money... or by the other Clan's extinction.

Another twist to the Oath and Feud status is that actions taken against one Clan will affect the Sentiment of its enemy or blood brother, as appropriate. For example, an oath-bound Clan will also become hostile to whomever is raiding you, and will dislike any clans you are in Feud with for as long as the Oath lasts. Feuding parties are allowed to freely declare outright wars against each other, fighting over the grazing lands in a single county.

Clans can be a bit tricky to manage, not just because of their own infighting but also because they don't follow any system of laws like the Feudal realms do; they are more about frankly expecting and demanding things from their Khan. If they view the Khan as weak and pathetic they are quite prone to attempt to have him replaced with another Clan chief (usually through membership in a special Faction.)

Apart from proposing Blood Oaths and declaring Feuds, the Khan also has access to a number of special actions against the other Clans. He can demand that they split in order to maintain balance within the tribe, or even absorb them; unless they refuse, of course! Clans are also free to adopt the religion of another Clan, should they like it better for some reason (steppe nomads are fairly open-minded about religious matters.)

I am sure there is more I should mention about Clan management, but since I really need to get back to work, I'll leave you with this. Next time; Tributaries, Nomad succession and dynamic mercenaries!

 

[Joel M Bridge]

I hope there will be more diverse raiding mechanics as a result, as well. Hordes shouldn't be limited to just raiding their neighbours.

Unless your Island lord far from the noridc Germanic grasp the world would be set aflame by the horse lords of the steppes.

 

[riadach]

Unless your Island lord far from the noridc Germanic grasp the world would be set aflame by the horse lords of the steppes.

Just like the Magyars did

 

[TheDungen]

Nomads should probably be able to raid any province under any adjecent independant ruler. As well as any adjecent to any of their tributaries.

 

[riadach]

Nomads should probably be able to raid any province under any adjecent independant ruler. As well as any adjecent to any of their tributaries.

No, Magyars Into France!

 

[victimizer]

The raiders should really be limited by the amounts of loot they are carrying. They're not on a boat, they're on a horse, which gets tired if you force it to carry the kings whole treasury. So you know, if you pillage and plunder in France, it won't be as profitable and there is the risk that your men will be ambushed while they're slowed down by their spoils.

 

[riadach]

The raiders should really be limited by the amounts of loot they are carrying. They're not on a boat, they're on a horse, which gets tired if you force it to carry the kings whole treasury. So you know, if you pillage and plunder in France, it won't be as profitable and there is the risk that your men will be ambushed while they're slowed down by their spoils.

But hordes are entire groups of people, their families, their herds. They're not unfamiliar with how to deal with burdens. Plus, they're not just raiding for gold, they're raiding for livestock and slaves.

 

[victimizer]

But hordes are entire groups of people, their families, their herds. They're not unfamiliar with how to deal with burdens. Plus, they're not just raiding for gold, they're raiding for livestock and slaves.

Raids don't typically involve the whole horde. A raid which is large enough to include the whole horde would be called an invasion. That's how nomadic invasions often started, raids grew so large they needed more people to carry the stuff, and when the word got out that the empire or whatever they were raiding, couldn't stop them, people with permanent settlement in mind would follow.

 

[Thure]

No, Magyars Into France!

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Kalandozasok.jpg

Look at this map. They were even in Spain

 

[riadach]

Raids don't typically involve the whole horde. A raid which is large enough to include the whole horde would be called an invasion. That's how nomadic invasions often started, raids grew so large they needed more people to carry the stuff, and when the word got out that the empire or whatever they were raiding, couldn't stop them, people with permanent settlement in mind would follow.

How would you explain their historical ability to raid thousands of miles from their base. Their is a certain amount of logistics implied by such daring actions.

 

[SaphireSeas]

How would you explain their historical ability to raid thousands of miles from their base. Their is a certain amount of logistics implied by such daring actions.

Horses, fear, haste and bravery?

 

[TheDungen]

More likely it was raiding/mercenary work/banditry.

 

[soluuloi]

Horses, fear, haste and bravery?

More like...a party.

 

[Grafvitnir]

Long-distance raids involved complex organization and tactics to move through hostile territories. The Magyars famously raided across Europe; such raids were very risky, but the potential profit was immense. I've proposed in the past a "great raid" mechanic to compliment regular border raiding and provide a nomad equivalent to Viking river raids.
A feudal realm or republic can be targeted (with a high prestige cost and long cooldown) with a special CB (plundered holding raise warscore instead of sieges), and can call in their allies to help defend. Nomadic armies should take very low attrition, especially in steppes and plains, so you can raid distant and wealthy enemy lands. Armies can load up with loot much like fleets (perhaps slowing them slightly), and must return to one of your provinces to cash in. On the other hand, if your massive raiding stack is wiped out, your prestige will plummet and the population of your horde will be decimated for years, leaving you vulnerable to neighboring hordes, dissatisfied subjects, or 'pacification' by nearby feudal realms.
Taking your horde across the Danube to raid the west while evading the armies of your enemies; or marshaling your forces to defend your realm could be a very fun mechanic I think.

 

[TheDungen]

Perhaps if it worked like the hunt for the seven cities mechanic from EU4, but as the same raiding as everyone else does no letting them do that over land unrestricted would make them to powerful.

I mean you press a button and they start going to random other provinces and loting the top loot, not sieging down holdings.

 

[Cruxador]

If nomads are empire tier, what will happen to nomads that were historically vassalized by their sedentary neighbors, like Black Hoods and Kiev or post-Mongol Cumans and Hungary?

Probably the same thing that happened to county and barony-sized merchant republics. Or inland merchant republics, for that matter.

 

[riadach]

Long-distance raids involved complex organization and tactics to move through hostile territories. The Magyars famously raided across Europe; such raids were very risky, but the potential profit was immense. I've proposed in the past a "great raid" mechanic to compliment regular border raiding and provide a nomad equivalent to Viking river raids.
A feudal realm or republic can be targeted (with a high prestige cost and long cooldown) with a special CB (plundered holding raise warscore instead of sieges), and can call in their allies to help defend. Nomadic armies should take very low attrition, especially in steppes and plains, so you can raid distant and wealthy enemy lands. Armies can load up with loot much like fleets (perhaps slowing them slightly), and must return to one of your provinces to cash in. On the other hand, if your massive raiding stack is wiped out, your prestige will plummet and the population of your horde will be decimated for years, leaving you vulnerable to neighboring hordes, dissatisfied subjects, or 'pacification' by nearby feudal realms.
Taking your horde across the Danube to raid the west while evading the armies of your enemies; or marshaling your forces to defend your realm could be a very fun mechanic I think.

There is another way.

Remove any hard limits from nomads. However, the more they raid, the greater their movement and morale penalties. Loading up wagons or driving sheep and cattle are going to slow you down especially over a large distance. Make every territory they past through hostile towards them, but reward them with higher prestige bonuses depending on how far the target is from their home provinces. That would make long-distance raids only possible for the very foolish or the very brave.

 

[Zohtun]

There is another way.

Remove any hard limits from nomads. However, the more they raid, the greater their movement and morale penalties. Loading up wagons or driving sheep and cattle are going to slow you down especially over a large distance. Make every territory they past through hostile towards them, but reward them with higher prestige bonuses depending on how far the target is from their home provinces. That would make long-distance raids only possible for the very foolish or the very brave.

Or very-very powerful.

 

[riadach]

Or very-very powerful.

Works for me.

 

[fysaga88]

Magyar defeats often involved them being ambushed or beaten when they went back to their homelands. The great Magyar army of 955 wasnt destroyed on the Lechfeld, but when they retreated and had to ford rivers and were attacked at strategically chosen points.

 

[riadach]

Magyar defeats often involved them being ambushed or beaten when they went back to their homelands. The great Magyar army of 955 wasnt destroyed on the Lechfeld, but when they retreated and had to ford rivers and were attacked at strategically chosen points.

That sounds similar to what I described so. Let them raid and load up first, then defeat and destroy them while they're slow and burdened.