• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #9 - National Markets

DD9 (1).png


Hello again! Today we will dig into Victoria 3’s National Market system. Markets are what drives the game’s dynamic economy by determining a rational price based on supply and demand for all trade goods in every state throughout the world. Expanding your national market to encompass more territory means more raw resources for your furnaces and more customers for your manufacturing industries. As your industrial base grows, so does your demand for infrastructure to bring goods to market.

The French market is swimming in cheap Luxury Furniture, Porcelain, Fruit, and Meat. Luxury Clothes and Wine are well-balanced. But as far as luxuries go, Sugar in particular has a sizable deficit and securing a reliable source of that would likely result in improved supply of domestic distilled Liquor as well.
image1.png


By default every country is in control of its own market which is typically (but not always) centered on their capital state. Every state connected to this market capital - overland or by sea through ports - is also part of the market. These states all have a variable degree of Market Access representing how well-connected they are to every other state in the market. Market Access is based on Infrastructure, which we will talk more about in next week’s development diary!

All local consumption and production in states contribute to the market’s Buy Orders and Sell Orders. Think of these as orders on a commodity market: higher consumption of Grain will cause traders to submit more Grain Buy Orders while higher production of Silk will result in more Sell Orders for Silk.

Furniture is a popular commodity with the growing urban lower middle-class, and it’s not likely its price in the French Market will drop anytime soon. Assuming the appropriate raw materials remain in good supply, upsizing this market’s Furniture industry is a safe bet.
image2.png

As we discussed in the Goods development diary, all goods have a base price. This is the price it would fetch given ideal market conditions: all demand is fulfilled perfectly with available supply, with zero goods produced in excess of demand. If buildings produce more than is being demanded each unit produced will be sold at a depressed price. This benefits consumers at the detriment of producers. Conversely, if demand is higher than supply, the economy of buildings producing those goods will be booming while Pops and buildings that rely on that goods to continue operating will be overpaying.

When determining prices for goods across a market’s many states we start by determining a market price. This is based on the balance between a market’s Buy and Sell Orders, with the base price as a baseline. The more Buy Orders than Sell Orders the higher the price will be and vice versa. Buy and Sell Orders submitted to the market are scaled by the amount of Market Access the state has. This means a state with underdeveloped infrastructure will trade less with the market and rely more on locally available goods.

States with full Market Access will use the market price for all its goods. Otherwise only part of the market price can be used, with the remainder of the local price made up by the local consumption and production of the goods. All actual transactions are done in local prices, with market prices acting to moderate local imbalances proportional to Market Access.

Glass is overproduced in Orsha. Coupled with a suffering Market Access in Orsha this means the Glassworks there can’t sell at the somewhat high market norm for their goods. This works out fine for local Pops and Urban Centers who consume it as they get to pay less than market price. But continuing to expand the Glassworks in Orsha will only lead to worsening Market Access for all local industries, and won’t lead to a better price of Glass anywhere else since fewer and fewer of Orsha’s Glass Sell Order ends up reaching the market. We can see this development on the market price chart: the market price used to be high due to low supply, we started expanding the Glassworks in Orsha which lowered the market price, until the point Orsha’s expanding industry became a bottleneck and prices started to rise again. The last few expansions have done nothing to lower the market price even as the local price has been steadily dropping.
image3.png


If an oversupply becomes large enough, the selling price will be so low producers will be unable to keep wages and thereby production volume up unless they’re receiving government subsidies. But oversupply is not remotely as bad as when goods are grossly undersupplied, which causes a shortage. Goods being in shortage leads to terrible effects for those in your market who rely on it; for example, drastically decreased production efficiency of buildings that rely on it as an input. Shortages demand immediate action, whether that be fast-tracking expanding your own domestic production, importing it from other markets, or expanding your market to include prominent producers of the goods.

Lacking access to a sufficient quantity of Dyes, this poor Textile Mill can only manufacture 42 units of Clothes this week instead of 126, which is entirely insufficient to make ends meet. Unless something changes, its wages will be cut to compensate and eventually Cash Reserves will run dry, rendering the building inoperable as its workers abandon it.
image4.png

If importing Dyes, growing them on Plantations, or manufacturing them in high-tech Chemical Plants to fix the shortage is not an option, returning the Textile Mills to pre-industrial, low-yield handicraft will remove the need for Dyes and restore the Textile Mills to marginal profitability.
image5.png

Astute observers familiar with previous Victorias will note there are no goods stockpiles involved in this system. In the predecessor game a single unit of a goods would be produced, sold, traded, perhaps refined, stored, and ultimately consumed, with global price development determined by how many units are inserted into or removed from the world’s total supply. In Victoria 3, a single unit of goods is produced and immediately sold at a price determined by how many consumers are willing to buy it at the moment of production. When this happens prices shift right away along with actual supply and demand, and trade between markets is modelled using Buy and Sell Orders. This more open economic model is both more responsive to sudden economic shifts and less prone to mysterious systemic failures where all the world’s cement might end up locked inside a warehouse in Missouri. Any stockpiling in the system is represented as cash (for example through a building’s Cash Reserves or a country’s Treasury) or as Pop Wealth, which forms the basis for Standard of Living and determines their level of consumption.

As the econ nerds (you know who you are) will by now have intuited, this lack of goods stockpiling in turn implies that in Victoria 3 we have moved away from the fixed global money supply introduced in Victoria 2. The main reason for this is simply due to how many limitations such a system places on what we can do with the economy in the game. With Victoria 2’s extremely restrictive and technically challenging closed market and world market buying order, it simply wouldn’t have been possible to do things such as Goods Substitution, Trade Routes, dynamic National Markets, transportation costs for Goods and so on in the ways we have, either due to incompatibilities in the design, or simply because it couldn’t possibly be made performant. We believe that the complexity, responsive simulation, and interesting gameplay added by this approach more than make up for what we lose.

Finally, a small teaser of something we will be talking more about once we get around to presenting the diplomatic gameplay. As you may have gleaned from the top screenshot, it is possible for several countries to participate in a single market. Sometimes this is the result of a Customs Union Pact led by the more powerful nation but more often it’s because of a subject relationship with a puppet or semi-independent colonies. In certain cases countries can even own a small plot of land inside someone else’s market, such as a Treaty Port. The route to expanding your country’s economic power is not only through increasing domestic production and consumption, but also through diplomatic and/or military means.

The Zollverein, or German Customs Union, is a broad unified market of German states controlled by Prussia. Without such a union many smaller German countries would find their economies too inefficient and trade opportunities severely hampered by geography and lack of access to naval trade.
image6.png

That’s the fundamentals of Victoria 3’s pricing and domestic-trade system! As mentioned, next week we’ll take a look at an aspect of the game that’s closely related to markets and pricing: Infrastructure.
 
  • 248Like
  • 114Love
  • 24
  • 8
  • 4
Reactions:

wilcoxchar

Field Marshal
98 Badges
Nov 15, 2004
5.106
17.586
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • 200k Club
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis: Rome Collectors Edition
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Deus Vult
  • Diplomacy
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Hearts of Iron Anthology
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For The Glory
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • March of the Eagles
Britain has a little island in the "Indian Ocean Territory" region, which belongs to the French Market. So they actually contribute 0.1% of GDP to the French Market at game start :D
I assume Sardinia-Piedmont then is Nice being in the French market like in the teaser image?
 
  • 1
Reactions:

mikhail321

Captain
1 Badges
May 27, 2021
374
1.609
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
If a building requires several input goods, does a shortage of one of them affect the others? In the clothes example, if say you need 2 units of fabric and 2 units of dyes to produce 2 units of clothes, but you can get only 1 dye unit, will the building still consume 2 fabrics and produce 1.5 clothes, or will it scale down fabric consumption and produce 1 clothes? Can the building scale down its labor force to match other inputs availability instead of going bust or switching production method?
 
  • 1Like
Reactions:

lachek

Victoria 3 Lead Designer
Paradox Staff
35 Badges
Feb 19, 2013
558
37.132
  • Cities in Motion
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Pride of Nations
  • Magicka 2
  • 500k Club
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Surviving Mars
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Prison Architect
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Magicka
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
@lachek How did you come up with the base prices? Is there ever a situation where they can change?

A related question would be if we have a privately owned factory that is selling a good in a market, how do we determine profitability? So if the good was selling for 50 pounds, and wages and materials cost 40 to produce, is that satisfactory? I don't know if I am describing my question correctly, I hope you understand.
Base price setting is more art than science, but generally speaking Luxuries have a higher base price than Staples, manufactured goods cost more than resource goods, and high-tech goods cost more than low-tech goods.

If a building sells goods for 50 pounds and pays 40 for material and wages, the shareholders of that building are able to make 10 pounds in dividends - all money earned and spent is divvied up between Pops, Buildings, and Treasury in accordance with conditions like wage rate, laws, and so on. One thing we've struggled with, but found what we think is a very good solution for, is how to signal to the player whether a particular building is "good" or not given that everything benefits someone. The solution we've settled on is to determine a Productivity factor for each building which is equal to the amount of money each employee generates per year on average (not including wages, dividends, etc), and then compare that Productivity factor to other buildings worldwide both of the same type and across all types to translate it into a "health" factor. As a result you can see at a glance that one building generates £1.9 pounds per employee while another generates £7.1, and that the first might be good for its type (perhaps a Subsistence Farm) while the latter could be better for its type (perhaps it's a Steel Mill that's falling behind tech-wise compared to other Steel Mills worldwide).
 
  • 48
  • 12Love
  • 11Like
Reactions:

IsaacCAT

Field Marshal
141 Badges
Oct 24, 2018
3.390
7.653
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
Will the ideal market price set by supply and demand be affected by real constraints like monopolies, cartels, corruption and many others? Maybe you will simulate those with market access, but I am not sure if that is the best way. Are you planning other price distortions?
 
Last edited:
  • 2Like
Reactions:

ajokitty

Second Lieutenant
54 Badges
Nov 1, 2018
132
423
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
What's the benefit of having a province that belongs to the market of another nation, like through a treaty port?

Do the market capitals have market access values?

So when there's a undersupply of a good, that lowers the production efficiency of factories which require it. How is this decrease calculated?
 
  • 2
Reactions:

nhytgbvfeco2

Captain
56 Badges
Feb 22, 2011
462
424
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Magicka
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
Please tell me that that is not how Germany will look in the final product. This is at least 5 tags fewer than we had in Victoria 2: the three thuringian states are gone, lippe-detmold is gone and one of the Hessian states is gone.
 
  • 15Like
  • 9
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:

Agamidae

LGS
42 Badges
Jun 29, 2017
510
1.851
steamcommunity.com
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Surviving Mars
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Cities: Skylines
I may be dumb, but I don't understand from this picture why the price is lower than the base price.
Is there a tooltip when hovering over 26.8%?

image3.png


I assume that the price is reduced by the ratio of production/consumption. So without the market, it would be reduced down to 30%? (Or maybe 60% if it's not 1 to 1)
But we only apply 26.8% of that reduction?
I don't see this explained in the screenshot (unless it's hiding in some tooltip).

Similarly, how do you know that the mill should produce 126 units of cloths? Does it say so in the tooltip? Or in another part of the window?
Maybe it would be better to write it out as 42/126? Same goes for the amount of dyes needed.

image4.png
 
  • 3Like
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions:

Swirly Mango

First Lieutenant
51 Badges
Jan 14, 2014
201
610
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 Sign-up
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • March of the Eagles
The lack of stockpiling, for the most part, isn't a big worry, but for one area: Military goods.

Stockpiling a large amount of artillery and ammunition and canned food prior to a big war was damn near essential in multiplayer, and was often the decider in who ended up winning. I fear that the lack of stockpiles for mil goods specifically will be sorely missed.
Following up on why this is a major issue:

You can't build an industry for war, without actually going to war because there's no profitability unless you're actively mobilising and reinforcing your divisions with fresh troops that also then have to buy new clothes and weapons and ammunition. In the case of countries with no access to relevant resources, you may not even be able to wage an effective war without a stockpile of uniforms, weapons, and ammunition.

For reference, peace time Russia has ~100 divisions. Mobilised Russia has ~1000 divisions. You cannot reasonably expect an industry to run at 10% Buy Orders for decades and then run at 100% immediately, or even in any realistic time frame during a war. Even if you had the raw resources for it all, you'd need to have those raw industries and intermediate industries expanded and fully employed, while they also ran at a approximate 90% loss from optimal.
 
  • 19Like
  • 4
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:

Stein14

Captain
101 Badges
Mar 19, 2019
480
1.627
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Season pass
  • War of the Vikings
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Surviving Mars
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Prison Architect
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Stellaris: Necroids
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Premium edition
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall Deluxe edition
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Victoria 2
If I got it right, that means that my Pops can always meet your needs as long as they are rich enough. And not like in Vic II that my rich people cannot meet their needs because the market is empty?
 

lachek

Victoria 3 Lead Designer
Paradox Staff
35 Badges
Feb 19, 2013
558
37.132
  • Cities in Motion
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Pride of Nations
  • Magicka 2
  • 500k Club
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Surviving Mars
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Prison Architect
  • Warlock: Master of the Arcane
  • Magicka
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
Does this mean that only goods which the player initiates trading for can be bought by pops in a market? In real life, a very small country will still have access to all the same goods as any other, but if that is the system, wont you have one state minors having drastically reduced access to different goods, because they only produce a few domestically and you are artificially limited in how much trading you can do?
Pops could theoretically attempt to buy goods that is not produced or traded to a market - otherwise there would be no "demand" for that goods - but in practice Pops will substitute most of their demand for unavailable goods for locally available ones that can be used to fulfill the same need.
 
  • 34
  • 14Like
  • 1Love
Reactions:

EwaldvonKleist

First Lieutenant
3 Badges
Jan 30, 2019
205
657
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
@lachek
As the econ nerds (you know who you are) will by now have intuited, this lack of goods stockpiling in turn implies that in Victoria 3 we have moved away from the fixed global money supply introduced in Victoria 2.
Could you please write more about money supply?
If the amount is not fixed (in V2 it was fixed pexcept for money created by gold mines), how can it appear/disappear?
I believe it is important to have plausible money wells/sinks and a closed money cycle everywhere else.

Why are there upper/lower ceilings for prices? Doesn't this reduce market efficiency?
 
  • 15Like
  • 1
Reactions:

Hat in a Cat

Recruit
79 Badges
Jul 18, 2012
5
4
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Magicka
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • For the Motherland
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Magicka: Wizard Wars Founder Wizard
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Victoria 2
So how exactly does trading between markets work? Can you embargo other nations and prevent them from accessing goods produced by your pops? Also, stockpiling goods was really important for war, as many have pointed out!
 
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:

Deathknight15

Major
105 Badges
May 10, 2009
758
1.156
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Iron Cross
  • Leviathan: Warships
  • Magicka
  • March of the Eagles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Rome Gold
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Sword of the Stars
  • Sword of the Stars II
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • War of the Vikings
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Heir to the Throne
  • A Game of Dwarves
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Darkest Hour
  • Dungeonland
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • For The Glory
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
To the contrary, the worst fears have now been confirmed. No fixed money supply, which means there are magical money sources and sinks.
I don't really see the issue? Victoria II was only a theoretically closed money model. It didn't actually work out that way in practice, to my knowledge.

Additionally, you are rather sweeping under the rug the other changes, which seem to be major improvements.
 
Last edited:
  • 13Like
  • 6
  • 3
Reactions:

gonalifa

Corporal
Aug 2, 2021
32
256
Following up on why this is a major issue:

You can't build an industry for war, without actually going to war because there's no profitability unless you're actively mobilising and reinforcing your divisions with fresh troops that also then have to buy new clothes and weapons and ammunition. In the case of countries with no access to relevant resources, you may not even be able to wage an effective war without a stockpile of uniforms, weapons, and ammunition.

For reference, peace time Russia has ~100 divisions. Mobilised Russia has ~1000 divisions. You cannot reasonably expect an industry to run at 10% Buy Orders for decades and then run at 100% immediately, or even in any realistic time frame during a war. Even if you had the raw resources for it all, you'd need to have those raw industries and intermediate industries expanded and fully employed, while they also ran at a approximate 90% loss from optimal.
Maybe you will be able to repurpose those factories into producing consumer goods during peace time using production method settings? I remember the devs saying something about automobile factory being able to product tanks if there's need to do so. I have no idea how true to history this would be during Victorian era though.

It would also be kinda similar to Civilian Factory <-> Military Factroy dynamic in HoI series too.
 
  • 4Like
Reactions:

MrMineHeads

Sergeant
23 Badges
Feb 18, 2016
62
623
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
If a building sells goods for 50 pounds and pays 40 for material and wages, the shareholders of that building are able to make 10 pounds in dividends - all money earned and spent is divvied up between Pops, Buildings, and Treasury in accordance with conditions like wage rate, laws, and so on. One thing we've struggled with, but found what we think is a very good solution for, is how to signal to the player whether a particular building is "good" or not given that everything benefits someone. The solution we've settled on is to determine a Productivity factor for each building which is equal to the amount of money each employee generates per year on average (not including wages, dividends, etc), and then compare that Productivity factor to other buildings worldwide both of the same type and across all types to translate it into a "health" factor. As a result you can see at a glance that one building generates £1.9 pounds per employee while another generates £7.1, and that the first might be good for its type (perhaps a Subsistence Farm) while the latter could be better for its type (perhaps it's a Steel Mill that's falling behind tech-wise compared to other Steel Mills worldwide).
hmm okay, this is good. do factory owners make decisions based on this Productivity factor or is it entirely up to the player's discretion? Because while a factory with 20% profit margin is great, is a factory with close to 0% profit margin good? From the perspective of the factory owner, not really so they probably will go around cutting costs until reaching an acceptable margin, right?