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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #9 - National Markets

DD9 (1).png


Hello again! Today we will dig into Victoria 3’s National Market system. Markets are what drives the game’s dynamic economy by determining a rational price based on supply and demand for all trade goods in every state throughout the world. Expanding your national market to encompass more territory means more raw resources for your furnaces and more customers for your manufacturing industries. As your industrial base grows, so does your demand for infrastructure to bring goods to market.

The French market is swimming in cheap Luxury Furniture, Porcelain, Fruit, and Meat. Luxury Clothes and Wine are well-balanced. But as far as luxuries go, Sugar in particular has a sizable deficit and securing a reliable source of that would likely result in improved supply of domestic distilled Liquor as well.
image1.png


By default every country is in control of its own market which is typically (but not always) centered on their capital state. Every state connected to this market capital - overland or by sea through ports - is also part of the market. These states all have a variable degree of Market Access representing how well-connected they are to every other state in the market. Market Access is based on Infrastructure, which we will talk more about in next week’s development diary!

All local consumption and production in states contribute to the market’s Buy Orders and Sell Orders. Think of these as orders on a commodity market: higher consumption of Grain will cause traders to submit more Grain Buy Orders while higher production of Silk will result in more Sell Orders for Silk.

Furniture is a popular commodity with the growing urban lower middle-class, and it’s not likely its price in the French Market will drop anytime soon. Assuming the appropriate raw materials remain in good supply, upsizing this market’s Furniture industry is a safe bet.
image2.png

As we discussed in the Goods development diary, all goods have a base price. This is the price it would fetch given ideal market conditions: all demand is fulfilled perfectly with available supply, with zero goods produced in excess of demand. If buildings produce more than is being demanded each unit produced will be sold at a depressed price. This benefits consumers at the detriment of producers. Conversely, if demand is higher than supply, the economy of buildings producing those goods will be booming while Pops and buildings that rely on that goods to continue operating will be overpaying.

When determining prices for goods across a market’s many states we start by determining a market price. This is based on the balance between a market’s Buy and Sell Orders, with the base price as a baseline. The more Buy Orders than Sell Orders the higher the price will be and vice versa. Buy and Sell Orders submitted to the market are scaled by the amount of Market Access the state has. This means a state with underdeveloped infrastructure will trade less with the market and rely more on locally available goods.

States with full Market Access will use the market price for all its goods. Otherwise only part of the market price can be used, with the remainder of the local price made up by the local consumption and production of the goods. All actual transactions are done in local prices, with market prices acting to moderate local imbalances proportional to Market Access.

Glass is overproduced in Orsha. Coupled with a suffering Market Access in Orsha this means the Glassworks there can’t sell at the somewhat high market norm for their goods. This works out fine for local Pops and Urban Centers who consume it as they get to pay less than market price. But continuing to expand the Glassworks in Orsha will only lead to worsening Market Access for all local industries, and won’t lead to a better price of Glass anywhere else since fewer and fewer of Orsha’s Glass Sell Order ends up reaching the market. We can see this development on the market price chart: the market price used to be high due to low supply, we started expanding the Glassworks in Orsha which lowered the market price, until the point Orsha’s expanding industry became a bottleneck and prices started to rise again. The last few expansions have done nothing to lower the market price even as the local price has been steadily dropping.
image3.png


If an oversupply becomes large enough, the selling price will be so low producers will be unable to keep wages and thereby production volume up unless they’re receiving government subsidies. But oversupply is not remotely as bad as when goods are grossly undersupplied, which causes a shortage. Goods being in shortage leads to terrible effects for those in your market who rely on it; for example, drastically decreased production efficiency of buildings that rely on it as an input. Shortages demand immediate action, whether that be fast-tracking expanding your own domestic production, importing it from other markets, or expanding your market to include prominent producers of the goods.

Lacking access to a sufficient quantity of Dyes, this poor Textile Mill can only manufacture 42 units of Clothes this week instead of 126, which is entirely insufficient to make ends meet. Unless something changes, its wages will be cut to compensate and eventually Cash Reserves will run dry, rendering the building inoperable as its workers abandon it.
image4.png

If importing Dyes, growing them on Plantations, or manufacturing them in high-tech Chemical Plants to fix the shortage is not an option, returning the Textile Mills to pre-industrial, low-yield handicraft will remove the need for Dyes and restore the Textile Mills to marginal profitability.
image5.png

Astute observers familiar with previous Victorias will note there are no goods stockpiles involved in this system. In the predecessor game a single unit of a goods would be produced, sold, traded, perhaps refined, stored, and ultimately consumed, with global price development determined by how many units are inserted into or removed from the world’s total supply. In Victoria 3, a single unit of goods is produced and immediately sold at a price determined by how many consumers are willing to buy it at the moment of production. When this happens prices shift right away along with actual supply and demand, and trade between markets is modelled using Buy and Sell Orders. This more open economic model is both more responsive to sudden economic shifts and less prone to mysterious systemic failures where all the world’s cement might end up locked inside a warehouse in Missouri. Any stockpiling in the system is represented as cash (for example through a building’s Cash Reserves or a country’s Treasury) or as Pop Wealth, which forms the basis for Standard of Living and determines their level of consumption.

As the econ nerds (you know who you are) will by now have intuited, this lack of goods stockpiling in turn implies that in Victoria 3 we have moved away from the fixed global money supply introduced in Victoria 2. The main reason for this is simply due to how many limitations such a system places on what we can do with the economy in the game. With Victoria 2’s extremely restrictive and technically challenging closed market and world market buying order, it simply wouldn’t have been possible to do things such as Goods Substitution, Trade Routes, dynamic National Markets, transportation costs for Goods and so on in the ways we have, either due to incompatibilities in the design, or simply because it couldn’t possibly be made performant. We believe that the complexity, responsive simulation, and interesting gameplay added by this approach more than make up for what we lose.

Finally, a small teaser of something we will be talking more about once we get around to presenting the diplomatic gameplay. As you may have gleaned from the top screenshot, it is possible for several countries to participate in a single market. Sometimes this is the result of a Customs Union Pact led by the more powerful nation but more often it’s because of a subject relationship with a puppet or semi-independent colonies. In certain cases countries can even own a small plot of land inside someone else’s market, such as a Treaty Port. The route to expanding your country’s economic power is not only through increasing domestic production and consumption, but also through diplomatic and/or military means.

The Zollverein, or German Customs Union, is a broad unified market of German states controlled by Prussia. Without such a union many smaller German countries would find their economies too inefficient and trade opportunities severely hampered by geography and lack of access to naval trade.
image6.png

That’s the fundamentals of Victoria 3’s pricing and domestic-trade system! As mentioned, next week we’ll take a look at an aspect of the game that’s closely related to markets and pricing: Infrastructure.
 
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Does this mean that only goods which the player initiates trading for can be bought by pops in a market? In real life, a very small country will still have access to all the same goods as any other, but if that is the system, wont you have one state minors having drastically reduced access to different goods, because they only produce a few domestically and you are artificially limited in how much trading you can do?
 
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An interesting development of the old Spheres of Influence on an economic model. But I still have a few questions.

  1. Will there be any way to model purely diplomatic informal control of another country?
  2. Will we be able to kick countries out of our national market?
  3. Can nations with puppets join another country's market, and if so, will the puppets automatically join the new market as well?
No. 1 is the only concern for me. There's plenty of examples where countries exerted influence over other countries without much economic influence. Hope that's possible too, since Spheres of Influence system of Vic2 enabled that.
 
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An interesting development of the old Spheres of Influence on an economic model. But I still have a few questions.

  1. Will there be any way to model purely diplomatic informal control of another country?
  2. Will we be able to kick countries out of our national market?
  3. Can nations with puppets join another country's market, and if so, will the puppets automatically join the new market as well?
1. We'll get into more details on various forms of diplomatic control over other countries in a later DD, it is correct that shared markets only cover about half of what the Spheres of Influence entailed.
2. Generally speaking, if another country is in your market it is because you have invited them or hold some sway over them. In this case you can just kick them out or release them. However, in case a country actually holds a small parcel of land in your market (for example a Treaty Port) it's not that easy, and you would have to bully them into giving that territory up or take it back by force.
3. Yes, puppets join any Customs Unions their overlord accepts an invitation to.
 
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Does this mean that only goods which the player initiates trading for can be bought by pops in a market? In real life, a very small country will still have access to all the same goods as any other, but if that is the system, wont you have one state minors having drastically reduced access to different goods, because they only produce a few domestically and you are artificially limited in how much trading you can do?
One state minors probably all start as part of a bigger country’s market. Though that does raise a question about what happens if they get kicked out.
 
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The lack of stockpiling, for the most part, isn't a big worry, but for one area: Military goods.

Stockpiling a large amount of artillery and ammunition and canned food prior to a big war was damn near essential in multiplayer, and was often the decider in who ended up winning. I fear that the lack of stockpiles for mil goods specifically will be sorely missed.
 
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In the example given of the dye shortage and loss in that factory. Would the factory automatically buy less linen (I'm guessing), and then make less clothes (let's say the ratio is 3 linen per dye, so if there are 15 dyes they will decrease linen purchase to 45). Or are they buying the maximum amount of linen, and not getting enough dyes to match it, which is why there is a loss?
 
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Everything looks great. You guys are rocking it!

As the econ nerds (you know who you are) will by now have intuited, this lack of goods stockpiling in turn implies that in Victoria 3 we have moved away from the fixed global money supply introduced in Victoria 2. The main reason for this is simply due to how many limitations such a system places on what we can do with the economy in the game. With Victoria 2’s extremely restrictive and technically challenging closed market and world market buying order, it simply wouldn’t have been possible to do things such as Goods Substitution, Trade Routes, dynamic National Markets, transportation costs for Goods and so on in the ways we have, either due to incompatibilities in the design, or simply because it couldn’t possibly be made performant. We believe that the complexity, responsive simulation, and interesting gameplay added by this approach more than make up for what we lose.

Trades routes and transportation costs for goods confirmed! As an econ nerd, that is really, really exciting. I am hyperventilating a little bit.

I tried out Victoria 2 a bit and I thought it was good, but Victoria 3 has the potential to be my favorite game ever with these mechanics (assuming they work well). I mean, transportation costs for goods? Can you believe it? That is ... wow!

I can't speak for others, but this is the kind of depth that I want. Incredibly well done. Thank you!
 
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Britain has a little island in the "Indian Ocean Territory" region, which belongs to the French Market. So they actually contribute 0.1% of GDP to the French Market at game start :D
Does this basically confirm that one nation can also be in multiple markets at the same time? It's been bugging me thinking about how colonial nations/territories deal with poor market access to their overlord's market if single nation can only be in single market.
 
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It looks as if the south of the Kingdom of Hanover is in the prussian market is this intentional or is it a graphical error?

I think it's likely that markets are determined at the state level and thus that implies that bit of Hanover there is part of a state that's in the Prussian market.
 
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I really like these changes from Vic2, no longer have to worry about dumbed down mechanics.
How will general good stockpiles work on the national level? We now know that factories won’t stockpile anything but can the nation? It would be necessary to stockpile key strategic goods prior to a major war, vic2 struggled with this as it broke the economy more often than not, but I would like to see a new iteration of this concept as it was so vital for the late game time period.
 
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If the money supply is not fixed, how it is produced? Because all countries use pounds, there is no risk of inflation ?
This is the important question - still no really firm idea on how money operates in the game. The DD said fixed money supply is dead but... what's replacing it?
 
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I was hoping to hear more about how trade happens between different markets as well, stuff like trade routes and treaty ports.
I guess the biggest question I have is how colonial and/or overseas markets work, like will there be an "Indian Market" which the British have full access to, or is it all just a gigantic "British Market" across the globe?
 
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wilcoxchar

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Love how much more depth the markets are going to have now. Looks great!
 

MrGrindor

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Are there any plans to redo the german borders as right now they a very ahistorical and honestly worse than the borders vic2 had?

In particular throwing the thuringian states in with saxony seems like a weird choice especially since they did play quite a role with members of their royal families coming to rule many european monarchies like the UK, Belgium and Portugal.

Also having Hannover be weirdly cut of from the coast by what I think is supposed to be a very large Bremen seems also to be a very odd choice.
 
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