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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #9 - National Markets

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Hello again! Today we will dig into Victoria 3’s National Market system. Markets are what drives the game’s dynamic economy by determining a rational price based on supply and demand for all trade goods in every state throughout the world. Expanding your national market to encompass more territory means more raw resources for your furnaces and more customers for your manufacturing industries. As your industrial base grows, so does your demand for infrastructure to bring goods to market.

The French market is swimming in cheap Luxury Furniture, Porcelain, Fruit, and Meat. Luxury Clothes and Wine are well-balanced. But as far as luxuries go, Sugar in particular has a sizable deficit and securing a reliable source of that would likely result in improved supply of domestic distilled Liquor as well.
image1.png


By default every country is in control of its own market which is typically (but not always) centered on their capital state. Every state connected to this market capital - overland or by sea through ports - is also part of the market. These states all have a variable degree of Market Access representing how well-connected they are to every other state in the market. Market Access is based on Infrastructure, which we will talk more about in next week’s development diary!

All local consumption and production in states contribute to the market’s Buy Orders and Sell Orders. Think of these as orders on a commodity market: higher consumption of Grain will cause traders to submit more Grain Buy Orders while higher production of Silk will result in more Sell Orders for Silk.

Furniture is a popular commodity with the growing urban lower middle-class, and it’s not likely its price in the French Market will drop anytime soon. Assuming the appropriate raw materials remain in good supply, upsizing this market’s Furniture industry is a safe bet.
image2.png

As we discussed in the Goods development diary, all goods have a base price. This is the price it would fetch given ideal market conditions: all demand is fulfilled perfectly with available supply, with zero goods produced in excess of demand. If buildings produce more than is being demanded each unit produced will be sold at a depressed price. This benefits consumers at the detriment of producers. Conversely, if demand is higher than supply, the economy of buildings producing those goods will be booming while Pops and buildings that rely on that goods to continue operating will be overpaying.

When determining prices for goods across a market’s many states we start by determining a market price. This is based on the balance between a market’s Buy and Sell Orders, with the base price as a baseline. The more Buy Orders than Sell Orders the higher the price will be and vice versa. Buy and Sell Orders submitted to the market are scaled by the amount of Market Access the state has. This means a state with underdeveloped infrastructure will trade less with the market and rely more on locally available goods.

States with full Market Access will use the market price for all its goods. Otherwise only part of the market price can be used, with the remainder of the local price made up by the local consumption and production of the goods. All actual transactions are done in local prices, with market prices acting to moderate local imbalances proportional to Market Access.

Glass is overproduced in Orsha. Coupled with a suffering Market Access in Orsha this means the Glassworks there can’t sell at the somewhat high market norm for their goods. This works out fine for local Pops and Urban Centers who consume it as they get to pay less than market price. But continuing to expand the Glassworks in Orsha will only lead to worsening Market Access for all local industries, and won’t lead to a better price of Glass anywhere else since fewer and fewer of Orsha’s Glass Sell Order ends up reaching the market. We can see this development on the market price chart: the market price used to be high due to low supply, we started expanding the Glassworks in Orsha which lowered the market price, until the point Orsha’s expanding industry became a bottleneck and prices started to rise again. The last few expansions have done nothing to lower the market price even as the local price has been steadily dropping.
image3.png


If an oversupply becomes large enough, the selling price will be so low producers will be unable to keep wages and thereby production volume up unless they’re receiving government subsidies. But oversupply is not remotely as bad as when goods are grossly undersupplied, which causes a shortage. Goods being in shortage leads to terrible effects for those in your market who rely on it; for example, drastically decreased production efficiency of buildings that rely on it as an input. Shortages demand immediate action, whether that be fast-tracking expanding your own domestic production, importing it from other markets, or expanding your market to include prominent producers of the goods.

Lacking access to a sufficient quantity of Dyes, this poor Textile Mill can only manufacture 42 units of Clothes this week instead of 126, which is entirely insufficient to make ends meet. Unless something changes, its wages will be cut to compensate and eventually Cash Reserves will run dry, rendering the building inoperable as its workers abandon it.
image4.png

If importing Dyes, growing them on Plantations, or manufacturing them in high-tech Chemical Plants to fix the shortage is not an option, returning the Textile Mills to pre-industrial, low-yield handicraft will remove the need for Dyes and restore the Textile Mills to marginal profitability.
image5.png

Astute observers familiar with previous Victorias will note there are no goods stockpiles involved in this system. In the predecessor game a single unit of a goods would be produced, sold, traded, perhaps refined, stored, and ultimately consumed, with global price development determined by how many units are inserted into or removed from the world’s total supply. In Victoria 3, a single unit of goods is produced and immediately sold at a price determined by how many consumers are willing to buy it at the moment of production. When this happens prices shift right away along with actual supply and demand, and trade between markets is modelled using Buy and Sell Orders. This more open economic model is both more responsive to sudden economic shifts and less prone to mysterious systemic failures where all the world’s cement might end up locked inside a warehouse in Missouri. Any stockpiling in the system is represented as cash (for example through a building’s Cash Reserves or a country’s Treasury) or as Pop Wealth, which forms the basis for Standard of Living and determines their level of consumption.

As the econ nerds (you know who you are) will by now have intuited, this lack of goods stockpiling in turn implies that in Victoria 3 we have moved away from the fixed global money supply introduced in Victoria 2. The main reason for this is simply due to how many limitations such a system places on what we can do with the economy in the game. With Victoria 2’s extremely restrictive and technically challenging closed market and world market buying order, it simply wouldn’t have been possible to do things such as Goods Substitution, Trade Routes, dynamic National Markets, transportation costs for Goods and so on in the ways we have, either due to incompatibilities in the design, or simply because it couldn’t possibly be made performant. We believe that the complexity, responsive simulation, and interesting gameplay added by this approach more than make up for what we lose.

Finally, a small teaser of something we will be talking more about once we get around to presenting the diplomatic gameplay. As you may have gleaned from the top screenshot, it is possible for several countries to participate in a single market. Sometimes this is the result of a Customs Union Pact led by the more powerful nation but more often it’s because of a subject relationship with a puppet or semi-independent colonies. In certain cases countries can even own a small plot of land inside someone else’s market, such as a Treaty Port. The route to expanding your country’s economic power is not only through increasing domestic production and consumption, but also through diplomatic and/or military means.

The Zollverein, or German Customs Union, is a broad unified market of German states controlled by Prussia. Without such a union many smaller German countries would find their economies too inefficient and trade opportunities severely hampered by geography and lack of access to naval trade.
image6.png

That’s the fundamentals of Victoria 3’s pricing and domestic-trade system! As mentioned, next week we’ll take a look at an aspect of the game that’s closely related to markets and pricing: Infrastructure.
 
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Lorehead

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What you are not mentioning here is that in economics, your model can be agnostic about the preferences of consumers. Economics are mostly about predicting what happens for given consumer preferences without making any statements about what those preferences are.

When modeling an economy in this game you have to make some arbitrary choices about how to set those preferences.
I really, truly, do not want to sound like I’m playing gotcha here. But your post literally quoted me saying, “In theory, you could derive this from the preferences and wealth of each pop.”

As for military buildup and stockpiles, one question I haven't seen asked is: how much are we able to switch the production methods of buildings that during peace time do not produce military goods to contribute to the war effort? That's a real thing that happened during wars, could alleviate the supply problems for those goods to some extent, while still being a tough choice to make because it would be inefficient and cause shortages elsewhere.
It is important. I don’t know whether it’d be a production method or something else, but I hope the Devs tell us a little about retooling.
 

Leoreth

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I really, truly, do not want to sound like I’m playing gotcha here. But your post literally quoted me saying, “In theory, you could derive this from the preferences and wealth of each pop.”
Yes, I quoted that part of your post because that was the part of it I was replying to. If you think it counters what I am saying you may be misreading what I am trying to say.

The bolded "preferences" are something the developers need to implement. They need a model for what people prefer. Economics does not model the preferences of people. This is in reference to the critique of base prices being an arbitrary choice, which prompted your original post. Yes, they are, and yes, economics avoids making this choice. That is because economics does not need to model the preferences of people.

I am aware you are suggesting to model those preferences, but the devs have chosen to use the base price as the mechanism to do so instead. As long as the outcomes are the same, there isn't really any reason to prefer one over the other.
 

Lorehead

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The bolded "preferences" are something the developers need to implement. They need a model for what people prefer. Economics does not model the preferences of people. This is in reference to the critique of base prices being an arbitrary choice, which prompted your original post. Yes, they are, and yes, economics avoids making this choice. That is because economics does not need to model the preferences of people.

I am aware you are suggesting to model those preferences, but the devs have chosen to use the base price as the mechanism to do so instead. As long as the outcomes are the same, there isn't really any reason to prefer one over the other.
Okay, then we’re back to my not seeing much disagreement between us. Like I said, a base price seems to be an approximation for consumer preferences? The Devs have said that it’s possible for a culture to develop a fascination for tea versus coffee, so something like a change in preferences does seem to be in the game.
 

Svenska Super

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Hi, an econ nerd here coming in..

Ok, so no stockpile... i can't get used to the idea. Why? Look at this example:

Furniture producing plant: produces 100 units of Furniture a year -> Sells 60 pro year = 40 Left in their warehouse enough to cover 8 months of producing outage. But ok u say instead of storing u get cash say 1 pound pro unit so yields 40 Pound

Now a supply outage do happens as a big riot occurs in the plant as a plant manufacturer cursed on some people calling them fake experts.

Now your plant is out of production... and you look to your neigbour country to buy every month the furniture shortage.
They slightly over produce domestic demand and charge 2 pound pro furniture (guess you saw this coming..;)

Now i turn in my money to get that furniture, BUT my 40 pound instead of 40 furniture now only can buy me 20, which is half!
Only 4 months, PANIC

What i do now? I send troops to take neighbouring production facility? U tell the nerds again bit more detailed why no stockpiling?
Been shyd away now from a buy even on kinguin, wil watch this!
 
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Lorehead

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The mechanic where customers can buy more goods than exist really makes me wonder. The responses about how, maybe the extra goods really were produced some time ago and stored in a stockpile somewhere sounds like it’s going to try to keep things too vague and abstract to see the rough edges of the model.

But, it’s going to be tough to keep an an abstraction like that from getting leaky. Say, there’s one producer of machine tools, which the Devs have said there is at game start, and it’s making only a few by an inefficient production method. So, what happens? If everybody in the world buys as much as they need at the higher price, what incentive is there for the player to upgrade production and raise output? That only lowers the selling price in this model. Or if everybody in the world gets as many machine tools as they need at a cheaper price, what incentive do they have to invest in a more-efficient machine tool industry? Wouldn’t either be exploitable in ways that break immersion?

What am I missing here?
 
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Deathknight15

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The mechanic where customers can buy more goods than exist really makes me wonder. The responses about how, maybe the extra goods really were produced some time ago and stored in a stockpile somewhere sounds like it’s going to try to keep things too vague and abstract to see the rough edges of the model.

But, it’s going to be tough to keep an an abstraction like that from getting leaky. Say, there’s one producer of machine tools, which the Devs have said there is at game start, and it’s making only a few by an inefficient production method. So, what happens? If everybody in the world buys as much as they need at the higher price, what incentive is there for the player to upgrade production and raise output? That only lowers the selling price in this model. Or if everybody in the world gets as many machine tools as they need at a cheaper price, what incentive do they have to invest in a more-efficient machine tool industry? Wouldn’t either be exploitable in ways that break immersion?

What am I missing here?
1) If demand is too much higher than supply you get a shortage and no more than a certain amount of demand is fulfilled. Devs mentioned that in this thread already.
2) Even if demand is not high enough for a shortage, high prices still come out of the wallets of pops and buildings. If the high prices is a good you as the player have a monopoly over (especially a luxury good) then you might not mind, but otherwise it would hurt your country.
3) Other countries are free to invest in the factory you refuse to upgrade, thereby undercutting you...
4) You want your pops to have luxuries to improve their standard of living which makes them happy and seems to have other benefits
 
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Lorehead

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1) If demand is too much higher than supply you get a shortage and no more than a certain amount of demand is fulfilled. Devs mentioned that in this thread already.
Since this mainly is exploitable with trade deals, and it is realistic that a monopolist wants to create an artificial shortage to keep prices high, maybe it works after all?
 
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Spartakusbund

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The mechanic where customers can buy more goods than exist really makes me wonder. The responses about how, maybe the extra goods really were produced some time ago and stored in a stockpile somewhere sounds like it’s going to try to keep things too vague and abstract to see the rough edges of the model.

But, it’s going to be tough to keep an an abstraction like that from getting leaky. Say, there’s one producer of machine tools, which the Devs have said there is at game start, and it’s making only a few by an inefficient production method. So, what happens? If everybody in the world buys as much as they need at the higher price, what incentive is there for the player to upgrade production and raise output? That only lowers the selling price in this model. Or if everybody in the world gets as many machine tools as they need at a cheaper price, what incentive do they have to invest in a more-efficient machine tool industry? Wouldn’t either be exploitable in ways that break immersion?

What am I missing here?
First, there’s no world market. “Everyone in the world” is not going to be buying from your inefficient machine tool factory, only people in the national market in question (and maybe not even that, if there are infrastructure bottlenecks).

Second, if the shortage is bad enough all your factories that use machine tools will get a malus, crippling the rest of your high tech industry, leading to a drop in purchases of machine tools and a return to equilibrium.

Even if the shortage doesn’t trigger the malus, the higher price will reduce the profitability of your high tech industry, leading to a drop in employment (the labor market is competitive in V3) and similarly a drop in demand for machine tools.

Conclusion: if you want a functioning industrial sector, you’ll want to either build up a machine parts sector or set up trade deals to import from countries that have.
 
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grommile

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Furniture producing plant: produces 100 units of Furniture a year -> Sells 60 pro year = 40 Left in their warehouse enough to cover 8 months of producing outage. But ok u say instead of storing u get cash say 1 pound pro unit so yields 40 Pound
So you know why your furniture supply suddenly switched from "66% oversupply" to "zero supply"?

It's because your furniture industry was running at a loss, ran out of money to pay for input goods and wages, and shut down.
 

Lorehead

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First, there’s no world market. “Everyone in the world” is not going to be buying from your inefficient machine tool factory, only people in the national market in question (and maybe not even that, if there are infrastructure bottlenecks).
If you're the only producer in the world, which is stated to be the case for Britain and machine tools in 1836, everyone in the world is going to have to sign a trade deal with you to get them.
Second, if the shortage is bad enough all your factories that use machine tools will get a malus, crippling the rest of your high tech industry, leading to a drop in purchases of machine tools and a return to equilibrium.

Even if the shortage doesn’t trigger the malus, the higher price will reduce the profitability of your high tech industry, leading to a drop in employment (the labor market is competitive in V3) and similarly a drop in demand for machine tools.
These are details that matter a lot. The thing is, “Try to manipulate production to create the optimal amount of shortfall for this algorithm, even though that action would make no sense in the real world,” is the kind of leaky abstraction I was talking about. It really hits you over the head with the fact that you’re playing a computer game with a simplistic economic model, and you’re exploiting the flaws in that model.
 
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If you're the only producer in the world, which is stated to be the case for Britain and machine tools in 1836, everyone in the world is going to have to sign a trade deal with you to get them.
Or build their own.
“Try to manipulate production to create just the right amount of shortfall to manipulate the economic model,”
Isn't that what real world producers do?
 
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Lorehead

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Or build their own.
The one prophecy that is always true is, “This, too, shall pass.”

Isn't that what real world producers do?
Not really, especially since the Devs say that your production buildings are supposed to represent many firms in the same region, which compete with each other. If the designers come up with a system that makes me say, “What I am doing in this game is what people in the real world do,” I will praise them to the skies. And I hope they do.
 
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These are details that matter a lot. The thing is, “Try to manipulate production to create the optimal amount of shortfall for this algorithm, even though that action would make no sense in the real world,” is the kind of leaky abstraction I was talking about. It really hits you over the head with the fact that you’re playing a computer game with a simplistic economic model, and you’re exploiting the flaws in that model.
I don't understand your complaint. It is a computer game, most of the time people play them by min-maxing the gameplay in their own favor.
Not really, especially since the designers say that your production buildings are supposed to represent many firms in the same region, which compete with each other. If the designers come up with a system that makes me say, “What I am doing in this game is what people in the real world do,” I will praise them to the skies.
Again it is a computer game, some level of abstraction is necessary which inevitably means some things don't match up to real-world logic. You are free in a game to play terribly and intentionally ruin your country, would you argue that the game shouldn't allow you to do that because it is not what people in real life intentionally do?
 
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I don't understand your complaint. It is a computer game, most of the time people play them by min-maxing the gameplay in their own favor.
This particular computer game is a simulation. The more verisimilitude and immersion it has, the better a game it is. Other kinds of games are different.

Again it is a computer game, some level of abstraction is necessary which inevitably means some things don't match up to real-world logic. You are free in a game to play terribly and intentionally ruin your country, would you argue that the game shouldn't allow you to do that because it is not what people in real life intentionally do?
The lead designer has given that as an example of something they’re trying to change. In another thread where we discussed rebellions, I said that’d I’d much prefer a HOI4-style civil war to an EU4-style whack-a-mole game that you’re trying to lose. Yes, “For this mission, you want to lose the minigame on purpose for a change,” can be a blast. If it’s a clever puzzle, or if losing is harder than it looks. And there were accelerationists in the time period who openly advocated “The worse, the better,” as a path to revolution.

But I would much rather have a tough but winnable challenge where, if I want my Communist or Liberal or Monarchist revolution to succeed, I have to play as the rebels and play well. If I want to win by losing, I can always change tags.
 
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The more verisimilitude and immersion it has, the better a game it is.
This is not (always) the case.

Most trivially, the game has to run at an acceptable speed on a system weaker than a Ryzen 9 5950X with 128GiB of RAM.

Also, sometimes verisimilitude and immersion sabotage fun even in avowedly simulationist games.
 
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This is not (always) the case.

Most trivially, the game has to run at an acceptable speed on a system weaker than a Ryzen 9 5950X with 128GiB of RAM.

Also, sometimes verisimilitude and immersion sabotage fun even in avowedly simulationist games.
Yes, the other aspects of the game are important too. (I am finding it hard to think of any example where too much immersion makes a game worse, though. Maybe if it’s too emotional. Players break into tears at the death toll of the Great War and the Spanish Flu?)

ETA: Actually, I can. There was a story I heard about a dad who installed one of The Sims games, I think 3, and created his own family and house for his young son to play with. Then he left to go do something else. A few minutes later, the dad heard his son wailing.

The little boy had clicked on his mom and had her make lunch. She was a fresh character with no cooking skill. The house was a starter home with the cheapest oven. It caught fire. The dad didn’t know you had to put a fire alarm in the kitchen, so the fire engine never came, and the boy watched his mommy burn to death. After that, he wouldn’t even go in the room with the computer in it again.
 
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Yes, the other aspects of the game are important too.
I agree with you: all things being equal I would like there to be an actual stockpile of goods, a real way to determine priority for buying goods, and a real closed economic system. But given that those lead to pretty bad outcomes in Vicky 2’s economic system (a game which I should hasten to point out I still love), and the Devs deciding to move away from that model has allowed them to get much more granular with things like regional pricing, markets, etc., I think it’s worth the sacrifice.
 
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The mechanic where customers can buy more goods than exist really makes me wonder. The responses about how, maybe the extra goods really were produced some time ago and stored in a stockpile somewhere sounds like it’s going to try to keep things too vague and abstract to see the rough edges of the model.

But, it’s going to be tough to keep an an abstraction like that from getting leaky. Say, there’s one producer of machine tools, which the Devs have said there is at game start, and it’s making only a few by an inefficient production method. So, what happens? If everybody in the world buys as much as they need at the higher price, what incentive is there for the player to upgrade production and raise output? That only lowers the selling price in this model. Or if everybody in the world gets as many machine tools as they need at a cheaper price, what incentive do they have to invest in a more-efficient machine tool industry? Wouldn’t either be exploitable in ways that break immersion?

What am I missing here?
I would add to the other points made is that by relying on the mechanic to get goods from nothing you suck money out of your economy, so everyone gets poorer and can’t buy their needs, and you probably soon have unrest on your hands. You can of course try to counter this by producing goods no one buys and getting money for them out of nowhere, but if the prices are elastic enough, it should be real hard.
 
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I would add to the other points made is that by relying on the mechanic to get goods from nothing you suck money out of your economy, so everyone gets poorer and can’t buy their needs, and you probably soon have unrest on your hands. You can of course try to counter this by producing goods no one buys and getting money for them out of nowhere, but if the prices are elastic enough, it should be real hard.
I had been under the impression that the money comes from the purchasers and goes to the producers. If they do do it the other way, it and the money does vanish, that might be a method of impoverishing a foreign country.