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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #9 - National Markets

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Hello again! Today we will dig into Victoria 3’s National Market system. Markets are what drives the game’s dynamic economy by determining a rational price based on supply and demand for all trade goods in every state throughout the world. Expanding your national market to encompass more territory means more raw resources for your furnaces and more customers for your manufacturing industries. As your industrial base grows, so does your demand for infrastructure to bring goods to market.

The French market is swimming in cheap Luxury Furniture, Porcelain, Fruit, and Meat. Luxury Clothes and Wine are well-balanced. But as far as luxuries go, Sugar in particular has a sizable deficit and securing a reliable source of that would likely result in improved supply of domestic distilled Liquor as well.
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By default every country is in control of its own market which is typically (but not always) centered on their capital state. Every state connected to this market capital - overland or by sea through ports - is also part of the market. These states all have a variable degree of Market Access representing how well-connected they are to every other state in the market. Market Access is based on Infrastructure, which we will talk more about in next week’s development diary!

All local consumption and production in states contribute to the market’s Buy Orders and Sell Orders. Think of these as orders on a commodity market: higher consumption of Grain will cause traders to submit more Grain Buy Orders while higher production of Silk will result in more Sell Orders for Silk.

Furniture is a popular commodity with the growing urban lower middle-class, and it’s not likely its price in the French Market will drop anytime soon. Assuming the appropriate raw materials remain in good supply, upsizing this market’s Furniture industry is a safe bet.
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As we discussed in the Goods development diary, all goods have a base price. This is the price it would fetch given ideal market conditions: all demand is fulfilled perfectly with available supply, with zero goods produced in excess of demand. If buildings produce more than is being demanded each unit produced will be sold at a depressed price. This benefits consumers at the detriment of producers. Conversely, if demand is higher than supply, the economy of buildings producing those goods will be booming while Pops and buildings that rely on that goods to continue operating will be overpaying.

When determining prices for goods across a market’s many states we start by determining a market price. This is based on the balance between a market’s Buy and Sell Orders, with the base price as a baseline. The more Buy Orders than Sell Orders the higher the price will be and vice versa. Buy and Sell Orders submitted to the market are scaled by the amount of Market Access the state has. This means a state with underdeveloped infrastructure will trade less with the market and rely more on locally available goods.

States with full Market Access will use the market price for all its goods. Otherwise only part of the market price can be used, with the remainder of the local price made up by the local consumption and production of the goods. All actual transactions are done in local prices, with market prices acting to moderate local imbalances proportional to Market Access.

Glass is overproduced in Orsha. Coupled with a suffering Market Access in Orsha this means the Glassworks there can’t sell at the somewhat high market norm for their goods. This works out fine for local Pops and Urban Centers who consume it as they get to pay less than market price. But continuing to expand the Glassworks in Orsha will only lead to worsening Market Access for all local industries, and won’t lead to a better price of Glass anywhere else since fewer and fewer of Orsha’s Glass Sell Order ends up reaching the market. We can see this development on the market price chart: the market price used to be high due to low supply, we started expanding the Glassworks in Orsha which lowered the market price, until the point Orsha’s expanding industry became a bottleneck and prices started to rise again. The last few expansions have done nothing to lower the market price even as the local price has been steadily dropping.
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If an oversupply becomes large enough, the selling price will be so low producers will be unable to keep wages and thereby production volume up unless they’re receiving government subsidies. But oversupply is not remotely as bad as when goods are grossly undersupplied, which causes a shortage. Goods being in shortage leads to terrible effects for those in your market who rely on it; for example, drastically decreased production efficiency of buildings that rely on it as an input. Shortages demand immediate action, whether that be fast-tracking expanding your own domestic production, importing it from other markets, or expanding your market to include prominent producers of the goods.

Lacking access to a sufficient quantity of Dyes, this poor Textile Mill can only manufacture 42 units of Clothes this week instead of 126, which is entirely insufficient to make ends meet. Unless something changes, its wages will be cut to compensate and eventually Cash Reserves will run dry, rendering the building inoperable as its workers abandon it.
image4.png

If importing Dyes, growing them on Plantations, or manufacturing them in high-tech Chemical Plants to fix the shortage is not an option, returning the Textile Mills to pre-industrial, low-yield handicraft will remove the need for Dyes and restore the Textile Mills to marginal profitability.
image5.png

Astute observers familiar with previous Victorias will note there are no goods stockpiles involved in this system. In the predecessor game a single unit of a goods would be produced, sold, traded, perhaps refined, stored, and ultimately consumed, with global price development determined by how many units are inserted into or removed from the world’s total supply. In Victoria 3, a single unit of goods is produced and immediately sold at a price determined by how many consumers are willing to buy it at the moment of production. When this happens prices shift right away along with actual supply and demand, and trade between markets is modelled using Buy and Sell Orders. This more open economic model is both more responsive to sudden economic shifts and less prone to mysterious systemic failures where all the world’s cement might end up locked inside a warehouse in Missouri. Any stockpiling in the system is represented as cash (for example through a building’s Cash Reserves or a country’s Treasury) or as Pop Wealth, which forms the basis for Standard of Living and determines their level of consumption.

As the econ nerds (you know who you are) will by now have intuited, this lack of goods stockpiling in turn implies that in Victoria 3 we have moved away from the fixed global money supply introduced in Victoria 2. The main reason for this is simply due to how many limitations such a system places on what we can do with the economy in the game. With Victoria 2’s extremely restrictive and technically challenging closed market and world market buying order, it simply wouldn’t have been possible to do things such as Goods Substitution, Trade Routes, dynamic National Markets, transportation costs for Goods and so on in the ways we have, either due to incompatibilities in the design, or simply because it couldn’t possibly be made performant. We believe that the complexity, responsive simulation, and interesting gameplay added by this approach more than make up for what we lose.

Finally, a small teaser of something we will be talking more about once we get around to presenting the diplomatic gameplay. As you may have gleaned from the top screenshot, it is possible for several countries to participate in a single market. Sometimes this is the result of a Customs Union Pact led by the more powerful nation but more often it’s because of a subject relationship with a puppet or semi-independent colonies. In certain cases countries can even own a small plot of land inside someone else’s market, such as a Treaty Port. The route to expanding your country’s economic power is not only through increasing domestic production and consumption, but also through diplomatic and/or military means.

The Zollverein, or German Customs Union, is a broad unified market of German states controlled by Prussia. Without such a union many smaller German countries would find their economies too inefficient and trade opportunities severely hampered by geography and lack of access to naval trade.
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That’s the fundamentals of Victoria 3’s pricing and domestic-trade system! As mentioned, next week we’ll take a look at an aspect of the game that’s closely related to markets and pricing: Infrastructure.
 
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I can't help it but notice the HUGE provinces that are on the European map...

This is a huge downgrade compared to Victoria 2 and its most loved mods. I think the dev team should shrink provinces and add many more of them, specifically for irredentist playthroughs with Germany, France or Greece and balkanization.

None of these screenshots show provinces they're all states
 
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Welcome to Victoria <3

Having everything - war most definitely included - being inextricably tied to market mechanics is a major design pillar for us. No, you cannot stockpile military goods - which means you better hope you have a good gold reserve and either a solid domestic arms industry or reliable trading partners to ensure you don't experience overpricing or a shortage of the military goods you need to run your army at peak efficiency right as you're marching on the enemy capital.
I would think that certain strategic good can and should be stockpiled by the state. Certainly this would be a mechanism that could, for instance, model the gold reserves of a country, which had a powerful impact on thr period as imperial powers sought captive export markets to maintain a positive trade balance.
 
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Regarding currencies and money supply:

Like in previous Victorias, the pound symbol is not to be taken as an assertion that all trade happen in British Pounds, but as a universal money symbol. I'd love to make a game with multiple currencies and a currency market but oh my god the implications

The "money supply" works on much the same principle: the pound is any arbitrary unit of value, not a literal bank note. When the money is stored in your treasury, it's a "gold reserve". When you're running a deficit, it's the "debt principal". When a Pop has some money left over, it's converted into Wealth (savings, investments, etc.) When a Pop lacks money, their Wealth is drained. The money supply, or value store as it were, is the sum total of Treasuries, building Cash Reserves, and Pop Wealth, if you want to think of it that way.

Economist chiming in ....

Does this mean you will assume all countries run on a gold standard? Because the question of monetary standards (whether the dollar should be convertible into gold, silver, or both) was a huge political issue in the US during the last quarter of the 19th century. The gold standard was stupidly deflationary, as the money supply remained constant while real wealth and population increased, and this led to all sorts of unfortunate affects on workers. The Long Depression of 1873-96 in the US can be traced directly to the Coinage Act of '73, and it contributed to two decades' worth of strikes, protectionism, and renewed imperialism in pursuit of markets for dumping industrial goods.

Also colonial powers would introduce fiat money (money backed by government tax power) into their occupied territories as means of mobilizing local resources. i.e. the British would introduce a hut tax, forcing locals to participate in the newly-introduced cash economy. Needless to say, this was not to the benefit of the colonized, and quite predictably produced resistance, uprisings, and wars and all sorts of atrocities that happen in the conduct thereof.

So assuming everything and everyone willingly and happily participates in a cash economy revolving around the gold standard eliminates a big conflict driver during this time period. It would be like having Europeans colonize and pillage Africa while completely ignoring the Congo Free State Admittedly, you publish a game that lets players literally play as Hitler while completely ignoring the whole genocide thing, but that's a matter for a different time.
 
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Two ideas how to represent Stockpiling (mailny for wars):

1. A Storehouse building that produces everything, for money instead of resources, but is much worse than any dedicated factory. (e.g. 1 factory can produce 100 rifles per day, storehouse only 10).

2. A decision to create stockpiles. This would create a timed modifier that would reduce the malus of having no (or not enough) weapons, ammo, food etc, but only for a while (e.g. 1 year)


Baden, Bayern and Württemberg were all members of the Zollverein at game start, the latter two being founding members.
But Brunswick, Frankfurt, Mecklenburg-Schwerin and Mecklenburg-Strelitz were not (in 1836. They all joined later).

related to this: Saxony should NOT own the Thuringian minors.
Historically, they've made different alliances, with each other but also with neighbours. And bits of Thuringia were part of Prussia during the whole game.
Saxony becomes much too powerful with this extra land.
 
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Historically accurate for Paraguay in the War of the Triple Alliance.


A good approach might be that the you create reserve divisions, as shells, ahead of time, and start buying the rifles for them then. That accurately replicates the situation in August 1914, where the combatants had very detailed mobilization plans to hand divisions their kit and put them on the trains in a few days, but found their supplies were soon exhausted. Even so, the United States found itself training conscripts with wooden dummy rifles in 1917. And stories of Russia deploying troops with no equipment are literally the stuff of legend. In some countries, a large portion of the population might already own hunting rifles and be able to bring their own. (Will there be different types of equipment in the game?)

I am curious how retooling the economy from peacetime to wartime and back will work in the game.
I mentioned this earlier, but in Vicky 1 you had to pay small arms and canned food everytime you expnded your mobilization pool, so I could see something simmilar. It would also be great if you could make reserve/conscript divisions with more stuff then just pure infantry.
 
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So there aren't only magical money fountains, there are also magical goods fountains now, because money and goods are summarized as value. You can buy things that haven't been produced, and sell goods to pops that don't exist. A black box at the center of the game, and inside: A dualist continuum of value. Schrödinger's economics. How can that be called immers ... hold on, that's exactly like the real world! :eek:
 
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Lol. I kind of hoped the whole game would use Kapital and labor times for all its calculations. I wonder how much can be modded.

I think Ellen Meiksins Wood did a proof that prices cannot be derived from supply and demand without using a prior assumption of price, which the game is ironically doing.
 
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(sorry if this has been asked/answered already)
Will there be laws you can enact that will shut people out of a market? So for example, becoming completely isolationist/self reliant.
Secondly, will you be able to stop foreign goods of a certain type to be traded in your market? ie: You want to stop the importation of slaves or you want to protect your local wine production from being flooded by foreign wine.
This might be more of a diplomatic question than a market question.
 
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Lol. I kind of hoped the whole game would use Kapital and labor times for all its calculations. I wonder how much can be modded.

I think Ellen Meiksins Wood did a proof that prices cannot be derived from supply and demand without using a prior assumption of price, which the game is ironically doing.
I’d be grateful if you could give a citation for this, so I can understand what she wrote on its own terms. I’ve already posted an algorithm for how the game could (given sufficient computing power) determine a price solely from supply and demand without using a prior assumption of price, and it was honestly very simple. So, unless she was saying something other than what I read those words to mean, I don’t see how that could possibly be true.
 
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Lone Ranger V12

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So in this system would it be impossible to prepare for war by storing up military gear while it is still cheap by overproducing slightly to create a stockpile but instead as soon as you go to war and demand for military goods skyrockets near instantly you will have to pay lots of excess money to magically get the military goods which instantly have a much higher demand than production driving their price up massively?

Military procurement never has simply operated on the supply and demand principle because the demand is so utterly volatile and the swings in demand so massive that you need to stockpile goods in preparation for a war. military stockpiles have been a major consideration throughout history even in pre industrial warfare let alone in the industrial era.

Also if money is just the abstracted stockpile and it can be instantly converted into any good to fit the need, how would blockades work to limit the access of resources of the enemy?
 
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gonalifa

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(sorry if this has been asked/answered already)
Will there be laws you can enact that will shut people out of a market? So for example, becoming completely isolationist/self reliant.
Secondly, will you be able to stop foreign goods of a certain type to be traded in your market? ie: You want to stop the importation of slaves or you want to protect your local wine production from being flooded by foreign wine.
This might be more of a diplomatic question than a market question.
For the 1st question, there is Economic policy called "Isolationism" which, according to Vickynomic Panel, aims for self-suffieciency. We don't know its actual effects yet though.

スクリーンショット 2021-08-08 141543.png


For the 2nd one, as far as we know, if you're in your own market, you will have complete control over what gets imported from other markets and what doesn't. You can also enact taxes on certain goods, which I assume will discourage usage on top of giving you money.

スクリーンショット 2021-08-08 142426.png
スクリーンショット 2021-08-08 142412.png
 
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Leoreth

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I don’t think we disagree. In theory, you could derive this from the preferences and wealth of each pop, but in practice, they might just be approximating it to, “the baseline cost of a unit of meat is one hour of the average wage.”
What you are not mentioning here is that in economics, your model can be agnostic about the preferences of consumers. Economics are mostly about predicting what happens for given consumer preferences without making any statements about what those preferences are.

When modeling an economy in this game you have to make some arbitrary choices about how to set those preferences. How much do people prefer meat over bread? It's as much an arbitrary choice as making an arbitrary choice of base prices, given that the outcomes are the same. It's just that one is following more closely how we are looking at markets in the real world, because there it is a given that consumer decisions are made by individuals outside of the model.


As for military buildup and stockpiles, one question I haven't seen asked is: how much are we able to switch the production methods of buildings that during peace time do not produce military goods to contribute to the war effort? That's a real thing that happened during wars, could alleviate the supply problems for those goods to some extent, while still being a tough choice to make because it would be inefficient and cause shortages elsewhere.
 
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PabloSugo1991

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you're joking, right? they already confirmed there are many more provinces in this game than in Victoria 2. what an overreaction
"Many more provinces"

Adding twice the provinces in Africa or South America doesn't mean you can cut down on European ones. Irredentism and ethnic distribution must be accurately rapresented in Europe... But it seems as if this suggestion of mine afflicts you on a personal level that you feel like making fun of it rather than just shrugging it off and welcome more flavor.
 
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Leoreth

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"Many more provinces"

Adding twice the provinces in Africa or South America doesn't mean you can cut down on European ones. Irredentism and ethnic distribution must be accurately rapresented in Europe... But it seems as if this suggestion of mine afflicts you on a personal level that you feel like making fun of it rather than just shrugging it off and welcome more flavor.
You're right. The correct way to react to posts like yours is to tap the laugh emoji and move on.
 
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Vivat Imperatoris

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There are still two questions I would really love to have answered.

1. You mentioned the base price is artifically created at the beginning of the game and can be influenced by over and under supply. But what is making me curious is if the base price itself can change? There were a lot of goods which got significantly cheaper over the time of industrialisation. Will this be represented?

2.
I am curious how autonomous pops and the economic system are. For example, the given tool example.

"The premium you pay will go to the tool producers."

Will they invest this money and slowly reduce the supply gap? Or is just their wealth increasing?

Are supply shortages reducing over time, by said mechanic itself to a reasonable degree, and the task of the player is simply to speed it up and/or assist it? Or will the shortage just reduce itself if the player gets himself active (which would be a bit odd wouldn't it)?

Thanks! :)
 
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adil3tr

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I’d be grateful if you could give a citation for this, so I can understand what she wrote on its own terms. I’ve already posted an algorithm for how the game could (given sufficient computing power) determine a price solely from supply and demand without using a prior assumption of price, and it was honestly very simple. So, unless she was saying something other than what I read those words to mean, I don’t see how that could possibly be true.
Economics is a broad discipline, I'm not sure why you think something you find disagreeable couldn't exist. The Cambridge capital controversy ended with the anti capital people winning, you cannot reduce capital to a single variable, but it was too convenient so the field did it anyway. Also "given sufficient computing power," come on. The game is simulating industrial commodity production, not the used market for video games, there is a place to derive price from that isn't supply or demand.
 
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