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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #9 - National Markets

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Hello again! Today we will dig into Victoria 3’s National Market system. Markets are what drives the game’s dynamic economy by determining a rational price based on supply and demand for all trade goods in every state throughout the world. Expanding your national market to encompass more territory means more raw resources for your furnaces and more customers for your manufacturing industries. As your industrial base grows, so does your demand for infrastructure to bring goods to market.

The French market is swimming in cheap Luxury Furniture, Porcelain, Fruit, and Meat. Luxury Clothes and Wine are well-balanced. But as far as luxuries go, Sugar in particular has a sizable deficit and securing a reliable source of that would likely result in improved supply of domestic distilled Liquor as well.
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By default every country is in control of its own market which is typically (but not always) centered on their capital state. Every state connected to this market capital - overland or by sea through ports - is also part of the market. These states all have a variable degree of Market Access representing how well-connected they are to every other state in the market. Market Access is based on Infrastructure, which we will talk more about in next week’s development diary!

All local consumption and production in states contribute to the market’s Buy Orders and Sell Orders. Think of these as orders on a commodity market: higher consumption of Grain will cause traders to submit more Grain Buy Orders while higher production of Silk will result in more Sell Orders for Silk.

Furniture is a popular commodity with the growing urban lower middle-class, and it’s not likely its price in the French Market will drop anytime soon. Assuming the appropriate raw materials remain in good supply, upsizing this market’s Furniture industry is a safe bet.
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As we discussed in the Goods development diary, all goods have a base price. This is the price it would fetch given ideal market conditions: all demand is fulfilled perfectly with available supply, with zero goods produced in excess of demand. If buildings produce more than is being demanded each unit produced will be sold at a depressed price. This benefits consumers at the detriment of producers. Conversely, if demand is higher than supply, the economy of buildings producing those goods will be booming while Pops and buildings that rely on that goods to continue operating will be overpaying.

When determining prices for goods across a market’s many states we start by determining a market price. This is based on the balance between a market’s Buy and Sell Orders, with the base price as a baseline. The more Buy Orders than Sell Orders the higher the price will be and vice versa. Buy and Sell Orders submitted to the market are scaled by the amount of Market Access the state has. This means a state with underdeveloped infrastructure will trade less with the market and rely more on locally available goods.

States with full Market Access will use the market price for all its goods. Otherwise only part of the market price can be used, with the remainder of the local price made up by the local consumption and production of the goods. All actual transactions are done in local prices, with market prices acting to moderate local imbalances proportional to Market Access.

Glass is overproduced in Orsha. Coupled with a suffering Market Access in Orsha this means the Glassworks there can’t sell at the somewhat high market norm for their goods. This works out fine for local Pops and Urban Centers who consume it as they get to pay less than market price. But continuing to expand the Glassworks in Orsha will only lead to worsening Market Access for all local industries, and won’t lead to a better price of Glass anywhere else since fewer and fewer of Orsha’s Glass Sell Order ends up reaching the market. We can see this development on the market price chart: the market price used to be high due to low supply, we started expanding the Glassworks in Orsha which lowered the market price, until the point Orsha’s expanding industry became a bottleneck and prices started to rise again. The last few expansions have done nothing to lower the market price even as the local price has been steadily dropping.
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If an oversupply becomes large enough, the selling price will be so low producers will be unable to keep wages and thereby production volume up unless they’re receiving government subsidies. But oversupply is not remotely as bad as when goods are grossly undersupplied, which causes a shortage. Goods being in shortage leads to terrible effects for those in your market who rely on it; for example, drastically decreased production efficiency of buildings that rely on it as an input. Shortages demand immediate action, whether that be fast-tracking expanding your own domestic production, importing it from other markets, or expanding your market to include prominent producers of the goods.

Lacking access to a sufficient quantity of Dyes, this poor Textile Mill can only manufacture 42 units of Clothes this week instead of 126, which is entirely insufficient to make ends meet. Unless something changes, its wages will be cut to compensate and eventually Cash Reserves will run dry, rendering the building inoperable as its workers abandon it.
image4.png

If importing Dyes, growing them on Plantations, or manufacturing them in high-tech Chemical Plants to fix the shortage is not an option, returning the Textile Mills to pre-industrial, low-yield handicraft will remove the need for Dyes and restore the Textile Mills to marginal profitability.
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Astute observers familiar with previous Victorias will note there are no goods stockpiles involved in this system. In the predecessor game a single unit of a goods would be produced, sold, traded, perhaps refined, stored, and ultimately consumed, with global price development determined by how many units are inserted into or removed from the world’s total supply. In Victoria 3, a single unit of goods is produced and immediately sold at a price determined by how many consumers are willing to buy it at the moment of production. When this happens prices shift right away along with actual supply and demand, and trade between markets is modelled using Buy and Sell Orders. This more open economic model is both more responsive to sudden economic shifts and less prone to mysterious systemic failures where all the world’s cement might end up locked inside a warehouse in Missouri. Any stockpiling in the system is represented as cash (for example through a building’s Cash Reserves or a country’s Treasury) or as Pop Wealth, which forms the basis for Standard of Living and determines their level of consumption.

As the econ nerds (you know who you are) will by now have intuited, this lack of goods stockpiling in turn implies that in Victoria 3 we have moved away from the fixed global money supply introduced in Victoria 2. The main reason for this is simply due to how many limitations such a system places on what we can do with the economy in the game. With Victoria 2’s extremely restrictive and technically challenging closed market and world market buying order, it simply wouldn’t have been possible to do things such as Goods Substitution, Trade Routes, dynamic National Markets, transportation costs for Goods and so on in the ways we have, either due to incompatibilities in the design, or simply because it couldn’t possibly be made performant. We believe that the complexity, responsive simulation, and interesting gameplay added by this approach more than make up for what we lose.

Finally, a small teaser of something we will be talking more about once we get around to presenting the diplomatic gameplay. As you may have gleaned from the top screenshot, it is possible for several countries to participate in a single market. Sometimes this is the result of a Customs Union Pact led by the more powerful nation but more often it’s because of a subject relationship with a puppet or semi-independent colonies. In certain cases countries can even own a small plot of land inside someone else’s market, such as a Treaty Port. The route to expanding your country’s economic power is not only through increasing domestic production and consumption, but also through diplomatic and/or military means.

The Zollverein, or German Customs Union, is a broad unified market of German states controlled by Prussia. Without such a union many smaller German countries would find their economies too inefficient and trade opportunities severely hampered by geography and lack of access to naval trade.
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That’s the fundamentals of Victoria 3’s pricing and domestic-trade system! As mentioned, next week we’ll take a look at an aspect of the game that’s closely related to markets and pricing: Infrastructure.
 
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It doesn't resemble a real world market economy either, where the price is where supply and demand meet.
 
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It doesn't resemble a real world market economy either, where the price is where supply and demand meet.
To some degree it does (with some fudge factor). If you consider that there is some goods substitution going on (with goods not modeled within a game), some stockpiling existing (outside of the game) and base prices are well-chosen to represent the cost to produce plus fair margin their system behaves somewhat similarly to the real world (at least in a large picture).

In any case, the big distinction is in whether prices fluctuate at all depending on demand/supply or are set by the central authority.
 
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But can you introduce price controls? You seem to have abandoned the idea of hoarding as a method to push up the price, or any form of market speculation.
 
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Given that buildings and pops won't be stopped from selling their goods if there is no demand, and won't be stopped from buying if there is no supply, price controls would be completely broken.
 
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What about the great rivers? Prior to the railways (and even after), much trade went down these rivers and onto global markets (and I'm sure to NYC as well). Even by the end of the game's time period, riverine and coastal trade was still very important economically.

So you're not going to model the dirt cheap transportation costs that the Mississippi River System gave the United States?
Water transportation is by far the cheapest way to transport goods in the world.


When the Americans manifested their destiny in the Louisiana Territory.
A man could put his family on a wagon and travel west to put seeds in the ground.
The grain was then harvested, put on a barge, and it could be floated all the way through the country, arriving at New Orleans, where it would be put on a ship and sailed to the most profitable market.
I think you guys are both a little bit confused about American geography. Yes, river transport was essential in settling the Midwest, but was not so useful for the Great Plains.


You can see in the Northern and Southern Midwest, there are plenty of major rivers and tributaries that allow farmers to get their goods to market. But in the Plains, while you do have the Missouri river, you have very few tributaries that would allow settlers to spread out and still be able to get their goods to market. Plus, rivers in the Great Plains have very low water flow even where they exist, so they aren't super great for transportation.

Railroads opening up the Great Plains is perfectly historical. Settlers relied on road based transport before that, and as you can imagine the road system was not very well invested in.
 

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How will pop prioritise items on their buy order for essential goods, wherein they can't afford all of them? E.g. how does a pop decide whether to eat or heat their home if they can only afford one?

Also, will players be able to restrict access of specific domestically produced goods to other international powers that they share a market with? E.g. can France prohibit it's domestic production of wheat to Great Britain?

And lastly, with stockpiling abstracted as stated, how will state owned industries supply resources to other, more advanced state owned industries?
E.g. will the state owned sugar cane farm essentially sell its produce to the state owned brewery? And how will that be shown in the sugar's and alcohol's profitability?
 
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I think im starting to understand the idea of money beeing both purchase power and stockpile.

While I know this thread was about national makets (and to some extent local/province? Markets) i'm wondering the implications on market exchanges, especially concerning the idea of embargoes. Do you habe plans on implemeting embargoes or particular goods beeing forbidden to be sold ? Assuming interactions between markets work on the same cash=reserves=stockpiles, if I am a ship (?) Producer, lets say great britain, and by some trickery I would be the only producer of boats. Could I in a war completly landlock other navies until they have time to build new ship industries ? Would the foreign markets bee in critical shortage even though the british industries are overproducing at perfectc market access ?


Different topic :
I read there is a "base price". Im assuming then there is also a "max price" and a "min price" to prevent crashes or is the system strong enought to see my 1billion sold unit of pure vodka ?
 
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I imagine 'mobilization' could work with a template-like system of 'reserves' that the State can choose to upkeep and constantly draw from the Military-Industrial Complex. Representing the upkeep of the stockpiles (though cheaper than an active regiment) and training of the reserves on a regular basis.

This might be a better way instead of the 'old stockpile' system and States that choose not to potentially have a bunch of 'manpower' sitting around until they can be properly armed as a State switches to a war-time economy.
 
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One fundamental example is that when supply is insufficient, you have to distribute it between prospective purchasers by some rational mechanism. So when you have a Steel Mill and 100 Pops who all want to buy Coal, who gets to purchase what fraction of the available supply?

Option 1: Determine some priority sequence, e.g. buildings always buy first, then Pops buy in order of descending Wealth. This means the Steel Mills might buy up all available Coal, leaving Pops with excess money but no heating. Pops start dying, and the player has to decide to wait until the price of Coal increases due to low supply such that their Steel Mills have failed so Pops get access to the supply, or close/destroy their Steel Mills temporarily until they can secure their Coal supply. Or, if Pops buy first, the Steel Mills get no Coal and close down, thereby causing Pops to lose their jobs so they can't afford to buy Coal, leading to a cycle of different agents in the system failing and/or downward spirals. Furthermore, with sequential purchasing that depends on the outcome of the previous purchase, we cannot multithread the logic. Hard priority buy sequences like this feel artificial and cause frustrations where players ideally want to control the distribution top-down with sliders, which of course is both fiddly and nonsensical from an immersion perspective.

Option 2: Have an overall "trade manager" split supply proportionally between purchasers based on desired purchasing amount. This is the rational decision since it can both be multithreaded and doesn't lead to systemic cyclical breakdowns. However, when combined with a Goods Substitution feature, such a trade manager would have to balance two parameters (availability and price) across a number of different permutations to make a single rational purchase decision that maximizes the yield for potentially tens of thousands of agents. There may be some cool math that can be applied here but none that we can instrumentalize such that it can reliably execute several times per second.

This is already a computationally difficult problem. Now insert local price conditions based on Infrastructure and Market Access. How much of the market's allotment of Coal compared to Oil should a Farmer in Michigan get to buy when Michigan only has 75% Market Access but Coal is produced locally?

With an open economy where stockpiles are abstracted into the price conditions, we can have all purchases resolve on their own thread and tally up into a total combined price. If the price is too high for some of those purchasers to sustain it in the long run, their own economic conditions will deteriorate and demand will decrease. This means we can approach an equilibrium over time by each economic agent doing their thing, rather than trying to compute an optimal distribution between all agents given a multitude of variables that all influence each other.
I think there definitely are other options. Did you consider having some sort of system similar to a liquidity pool? They do need to some sort of liquidity pooled up for it to work, but at least the game can start with the pools with some liquidity in them already. This can allow buyers and sellers to enter at any moment and there is in theory infinite supply and demand, just that the price depends a bit on how much you want, but as long as there is a large enough liquidity, price does not change that much by one single transaction. This difference can even be hidden from the buyer by having a small % difference between the real price and the ask price and hide the price difference because of the purchase (at least if quantities are small enough)

This method can still kinda be multithreaded if you limit the purchase order sizes and liquidity is big enough. It allows for goods from one day to be purchased in a following day. It manages the price mechanic by itself. It kinda serves like a buffer if liquidity is large enough.
The only issue would be managing the size of the liquidity, but that could work with just a simple target that is defined once a week based on how much supply and demand there was, and try to set a target at for example 10x the daily trade volume. Liquidity should grow by itself because of the fees, and if it needs to shrink maybe it can be given as cash to the market controller or some building.

Of course I bet it's a bit late to implement this, but it sounds like a pretty ok solution to the problem, and I feel like it could kill multiple birds with one stone.
 
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Hi! I'm a first time poster, but I've been a rabid fan of Victoria 2 since release. I have a slightly irrelevant to this post - but highly relevant to my favorite nation - question:

Does Hamburg have sea access? It looks so very landlocked in this picture, but of course the Elbe is the navigable lifeblood which I must have to build The Imperial Hamburger.
 
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BrotherJonathan

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Wooooooooo! No more economy that's so complicated not even the devs understand how it works.
 
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Axe99

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You can see in the Northern and Southern Midwest, there are plenty of major rivers and tributaries that allow farmers to get their goods to market. But in the Plains, while you do have the Missouri river, you have very few tributaries that would allow settlers to spread out and still be able to get their goods to market. Plus, rivers in the Great Plains have very low water flow even where they exist, so they aren't super great for transportation.
I was going from memory, and it may well have been a bit wobbly, so I've done some looking around today, and while road and rail were important, prior to rail and regular stagecoaches, waterborne transport still seems to have played an important role - see:

"Although mackinaws, canoes, and bullboats continued to be used by fur traders and others at least until the 1870s, the advent of the steamboat on the Missouri River in 1831 revolutionized navigation. By the 1860s, paddle wheelers served as great beasts of burden along the principal streams, particularly the churning 2,285 miles of the Missouri River from its mouth near St. Louis to Fort Benton, a military post in present-day Montana. Supplies for farmers, miners, ranchers, soldiers, and trappers moved by water, as did cargoes of cattle, grain, furs, and mining machinery." - from http://plainshumanities.unl.edu/encyclopedia/doc/egp.tra.001 (the source highlights how important roads and particularly rail was as well)

But you're quite right (sorry, bad braining on my part) - outside the small number of at least partially navigable waterways, land-transport had to be relied upon - waterborne transport in the early US was more important in the area East of the great plains. More broadly, though, my main concern is in the general importance of waterborne transport. Rail was hugely important in opening up the interior, but I hope the game doesn't suggest that prior to inland rail, areas with navigable rivers (even just seasonally) weren't capable of shipping sizeable quantities of goods to markets. This is even more important in Europe, where waterborne trade on the major rivers had a history that dated back, I think, to before the Roman Empire in some places.
 
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Wooooooooo! No more economy that's so complicated not even the devs understand how it works.
Boo, that's unrealistic. Nobody ever understood how the economy works, that's why they literally started worshipping the market and saying nonsense like "That's what the market dictates!" They have priests that try to divine the wishes of "the market", and everything. They teach Econ classes.
 
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I was going from memory, and it may well have been a bit wobbly, so I've done some looking around today, and while road and rail were important, prior to rail and regular stagecoaches, waterborne transport still seems to have played an important role - see:
Yeah, the Missouri river is the big exception. That's why colonization happened so quickly in Oregon: it made a really good throughway. Not quite the Northwest Passage, though.
But you're quite right (sorry, bad braining on my part) - outside the small number of at least partially navigable waterways, land-transport had to be relied upon - waterborne transport in the early US was more important in the area East of the great plains. More broadly, though, my main concern is in the general importance of waterborne transport. Rail was hugely important in opening up the interior, but I hope the game doesn't suggest that prior to inland rail, areas with navigable rivers (even just seasonally) weren't capable of shipping sizeable quantities of goods to markets. This is even more important in Europe, where waterborne trade on the major rivers had a history that dated back, I think, to before the Roman Empire in some places.
The Devs have confirmed that waterways provide infrastructure. No canal building though, sadly.
 
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masteriw

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The lack of stockpiling, for the most part, isn't a big worry, but for one area: Military goods.

Stockpiling a large amount of artillery and ammunition and canned food prior to a big war was damn near essential in multiplayer, and was often the decider in who ended up winning. I fear that the lack of stockpiles for mil goods specifically will be sorely missed.
They can (and hopefully will) still reveal or implement a military stockpile system without necessarily ruining their "no stockpile" economic model.
I think it could work well with some budget sliders like the ones in Victoria 2. You would be able to purchase and save up arbitrary amounts of military goods and then go to war and burn through your stockpile. Those goods wouldn't be otherwise stockpiled anywhere else but in the national stockpiles of each country, so I think this wouldn't ruin their economic model while still allowing for military build-up.
 
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Lorehead

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You can't build an industry for war, without actually going to war because there's no profitability unless you're actively mobilising and reinforcing your divisions with fresh troops that also then have to buy new clothes and weapons and ammunition. In the case of countries with no access to relevant resources, you may not even be able to wage an effective war without a stockpile of uniforms, weapons, and ammunition.

Historically accurate for Paraguay in the War of the Triple Alliance.

For reference, peace time Russia has ~100 divisions. Mobilised Russia has ~1000 divisions. You cannot reasonably expect an industry to run at 10% Buy Orders for decades and then run at 100% immediately, or even in any realistic time frame during a war. Even if you had the raw resources for it all, you'd need to have those raw industries and intermediate industries expanded and fully employed, while they also ran at a approximate 90% loss from optimal.
A good approach might be that the you create reserve divisions, as shells, ahead of time, and start buying the rifles for them then. That accurately replicates the situation in August 1914, where the combatants had very detailed mobilization plans to hand divisions their kit and put them on the trains in a few days, but found their supplies were soon exhausted. Even so, the United States found itself training conscripts with wooden dummy rifles in 1917. And stories of Russia deploying troops with no equipment are literally the stuff of legend. In some countries, a large portion of the population might already own hunting rifles and be able to bring their own. (Will there be different types of equipment in the game?)

I am curious how retooling the economy from peacetime to wartime and back will work in the game.
 
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The Devs have confirmed that waterways provide infrastructure. No canal building though, sadly.
Cheers - dang, sorry I missed that. I've been trying to keep an eye on everything, but clearly not quite there. Thanks for clueing me up :)
 
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PabloSugo1991

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I can't help it but notice the HUGE provinces that are on the European map...

This is a huge downgrade compared to Victoria 2 and its most loved mods. I think the dev team should shrink provinces and add many more of them, specifically for irredentist playthroughs with Germany, France or Greece and balkanization.

And before people make fun of me for wanting "Grossgermanium", The 19th and 20th century was an age of irredentism and nationalism, and after WW1 there were a lot of ethnic groups that seeked independence.

Some borders could get a second look... I can't help but notice that in EVERY paradox game the Eupen-Malmedy province is missing and instead Belgium shares its modern-day borders with Prussia instead of having Eupen be under Prussia's control.

Sudetenland really needs to be implemented too.
 
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This looks lovely! But why is Eupen-Malmedy in Belgium and not in Prussia?
 
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Zhetone

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I can't help it but notice the HUGE provinces that are on the European map...

This is a huge downgrade compared to Victoria 2 and its most loved mods. I think the dev team should shrink provinces and add many more of them, specifically for irredentist playthroughs with Germany, France or Greece and balkanization.

And before people make fun of me for wanting "Grossgermanium", The 19th and 20th century was an age of irredentism and nationalism, and after WW1 there were a lot of ethnic groups that seeked independence.

Some borders could get a second look... I can't help but notice that in EVERY paradox game the Eupen-Malmedy province is missing and instead Belgium shares its modern-day borders with Prussia instead of having Eupen be under Prussia's control.

Sudetenland really needs to be implemented too.
you're joking, right? they already confirmed there are many more provinces in this game than in Victoria 2. what an overreaction
 
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