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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #9 - National Markets

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Hello again! Today we will dig into Victoria 3’s National Market system. Markets are what drives the game’s dynamic economy by determining a rational price based on supply and demand for all trade goods in every state throughout the world. Expanding your national market to encompass more territory means more raw resources for your furnaces and more customers for your manufacturing industries. As your industrial base grows, so does your demand for infrastructure to bring goods to market.

The French market is swimming in cheap Luxury Furniture, Porcelain, Fruit, and Meat. Luxury Clothes and Wine are well-balanced. But as far as luxuries go, Sugar in particular has a sizable deficit and securing a reliable source of that would likely result in improved supply of domestic distilled Liquor as well.
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By default every country is in control of its own market which is typically (but not always) centered on their capital state. Every state connected to this market capital - overland or by sea through ports - is also part of the market. These states all have a variable degree of Market Access representing how well-connected they are to every other state in the market. Market Access is based on Infrastructure, which we will talk more about in next week’s development diary!

All local consumption and production in states contribute to the market’s Buy Orders and Sell Orders. Think of these as orders on a commodity market: higher consumption of Grain will cause traders to submit more Grain Buy Orders while higher production of Silk will result in more Sell Orders for Silk.

Furniture is a popular commodity with the growing urban lower middle-class, and it’s not likely its price in the French Market will drop anytime soon. Assuming the appropriate raw materials remain in good supply, upsizing this market’s Furniture industry is a safe bet.
image2.png

As we discussed in the Goods development diary, all goods have a base price. This is the price it would fetch given ideal market conditions: all demand is fulfilled perfectly with available supply, with zero goods produced in excess of demand. If buildings produce more than is being demanded each unit produced will be sold at a depressed price. This benefits consumers at the detriment of producers. Conversely, if demand is higher than supply, the economy of buildings producing those goods will be booming while Pops and buildings that rely on that goods to continue operating will be overpaying.

When determining prices for goods across a market’s many states we start by determining a market price. This is based on the balance between a market’s Buy and Sell Orders, with the base price as a baseline. The more Buy Orders than Sell Orders the higher the price will be and vice versa. Buy and Sell Orders submitted to the market are scaled by the amount of Market Access the state has. This means a state with underdeveloped infrastructure will trade less with the market and rely more on locally available goods.

States with full Market Access will use the market price for all its goods. Otherwise only part of the market price can be used, with the remainder of the local price made up by the local consumption and production of the goods. All actual transactions are done in local prices, with market prices acting to moderate local imbalances proportional to Market Access.

Glass is overproduced in Orsha. Coupled with a suffering Market Access in Orsha this means the Glassworks there can’t sell at the somewhat high market norm for their goods. This works out fine for local Pops and Urban Centers who consume it as they get to pay less than market price. But continuing to expand the Glassworks in Orsha will only lead to worsening Market Access for all local industries, and won’t lead to a better price of Glass anywhere else since fewer and fewer of Orsha’s Glass Sell Order ends up reaching the market. We can see this development on the market price chart: the market price used to be high due to low supply, we started expanding the Glassworks in Orsha which lowered the market price, until the point Orsha’s expanding industry became a bottleneck and prices started to rise again. The last few expansions have done nothing to lower the market price even as the local price has been steadily dropping.
image3.png


If an oversupply becomes large enough, the selling price will be so low producers will be unable to keep wages and thereby production volume up unless they’re receiving government subsidies. But oversupply is not remotely as bad as when goods are grossly undersupplied, which causes a shortage. Goods being in shortage leads to terrible effects for those in your market who rely on it; for example, drastically decreased production efficiency of buildings that rely on it as an input. Shortages demand immediate action, whether that be fast-tracking expanding your own domestic production, importing it from other markets, or expanding your market to include prominent producers of the goods.

Lacking access to a sufficient quantity of Dyes, this poor Textile Mill can only manufacture 42 units of Clothes this week instead of 126, which is entirely insufficient to make ends meet. Unless something changes, its wages will be cut to compensate and eventually Cash Reserves will run dry, rendering the building inoperable as its workers abandon it.
image4.png

If importing Dyes, growing them on Plantations, or manufacturing them in high-tech Chemical Plants to fix the shortage is not an option, returning the Textile Mills to pre-industrial, low-yield handicraft will remove the need for Dyes and restore the Textile Mills to marginal profitability.
image5.png

Astute observers familiar with previous Victorias will note there are no goods stockpiles involved in this system. In the predecessor game a single unit of a goods would be produced, sold, traded, perhaps refined, stored, and ultimately consumed, with global price development determined by how many units are inserted into or removed from the world’s total supply. In Victoria 3, a single unit of goods is produced and immediately sold at a price determined by how many consumers are willing to buy it at the moment of production. When this happens prices shift right away along with actual supply and demand, and trade between markets is modelled using Buy and Sell Orders. This more open economic model is both more responsive to sudden economic shifts and less prone to mysterious systemic failures where all the world’s cement might end up locked inside a warehouse in Missouri. Any stockpiling in the system is represented as cash (for example through a building’s Cash Reserves or a country’s Treasury) or as Pop Wealth, which forms the basis for Standard of Living and determines their level of consumption.

As the econ nerds (you know who you are) will by now have intuited, this lack of goods stockpiling in turn implies that in Victoria 3 we have moved away from the fixed global money supply introduced in Victoria 2. The main reason for this is simply due to how many limitations such a system places on what we can do with the economy in the game. With Victoria 2’s extremely restrictive and technically challenging closed market and world market buying order, it simply wouldn’t have been possible to do things such as Goods Substitution, Trade Routes, dynamic National Markets, transportation costs for Goods and so on in the ways we have, either due to incompatibilities in the design, or simply because it couldn’t possibly be made performant. We believe that the complexity, responsive simulation, and interesting gameplay added by this approach more than make up for what we lose.

Finally, a small teaser of something we will be talking more about once we get around to presenting the diplomatic gameplay. As you may have gleaned from the top screenshot, it is possible for several countries to participate in a single market. Sometimes this is the result of a Customs Union Pact led by the more powerful nation but more often it’s because of a subject relationship with a puppet or semi-independent colonies. In certain cases countries can even own a small plot of land inside someone else’s market, such as a Treaty Port. The route to expanding your country’s economic power is not only through increasing domestic production and consumption, but also through diplomatic and/or military means.

The Zollverein, or German Customs Union, is a broad unified market of German states controlled by Prussia. Without such a union many smaller German countries would find their economies too inefficient and trade opportunities severely hampered by geography and lack of access to naval trade.
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That’s the fundamentals of Victoria 3’s pricing and domestic-trade system! As mentioned, next week we’ll take a look at an aspect of the game that’s closely related to markets and pricing: Infrastructure.
 
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Sbrubbles

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This DD has explained how prices work in the free market economies. What about command economies? Presumably, supreme leader can set prices to whatever is deemed good for the population? Are there any limits to that? What happens if they are set at the level where buy orders will exceed supply orders? Since it's not a free market, prices are fixed and wouldn't go up?
I'm going out on a limb and say that command economies will work the same as free market economies in this reguard. The differences will exist elsewhere (probably, who profits go to and how much the government can invest into the economy)
 
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GrafKeks

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This DD has explained how prices work in the free market economies. What about command economies? Presumably, supreme leader can set prices to whatever is deemed good for the population? Are there any limits to that? What happens if they are set at the level where buy orders will exceed supply orders? Since it's not a free market, prices are fixed and wouldn't go up?
Works just the same you have to use subventions though.
 

alexti

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I'm going out on a limb and say that command economies will work the same as free market economies in this reguard. The differences will exist elsewhere (probably, who profits go to and how much the government can invest into the economy)
That would be very disappointing. Both from point of view of realism and gameplay.
 
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alexti

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Works just the same you have to use subventions though.
How would it work? In real world pops can't get goods they need if there are shortages making pops angry. If they could buy the goods anyway (at a higher price) they would remain loyal since money/wealth is not a limiting factor. In countries, like Soviet Union the problem was that not enough of (certain) goods were produced while the government had power to create money and the prices were fixed.
 

FranklyJustNess

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Britain has a little island in the "Indian Ocean Territory" region, which belongs to the French Market. So they actually contribute 0.1% of GDP to the French Market at game start :D
Maybe have some UI element that would show next to the flag if the nation only is a part of a market via some small portion of territory.
 

Lorehead

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Option 2: Have an overall "trade manager" split supply proportionally between purchasers based on desired purchasing amount. This is the rational decision since it can both be multithreaded and doesn't lead to systemic cyclical breakdowns. However, when combined with a Goods Substitution feature, such a trade manager would have to balance two parameters (availability and price) across a number of different permutations to make a single rational purchase decision that maximizes the yield for potentially tens of thousands of agents. There may be some cool math that can be applied here but none that we can instrumentalize such that it can reliably execute several times per second.

This is already a computationally difficult problem. Now insert local price conditions based on Infrastructure and Market Access. How much of the market's allotment of Coal compared to Oil should a Farmer in Michigan get to buy when Michigan only has 75% Market Access but Coal is produced locally?

With an open economy where stockpiles are abstracted into the price conditions, we can have all purchases resolve on their own thread and tally up into a total combined price. If the price is too high for some of those purchasers to sustain it in the long run, their own economic conditions will deteriorate and demand will decrease. This means we can approach an equilibrium over time by each economic agent doing their thing, rather than trying to compute an optimal distribution between all agents given a multitude of variables that all influence each other.
This is piquing my interest. I’m sure my mental picture of the codebase is very inaccurate and what you’re saying is correct, but I wonder if you might give a little more technical detail? The first idea that jumps to mind here is to assign each agent a weight, with vectorized code, that is, you have vectors of each agent’s demand, wealth, infrastructure level, and other relevant quantities, and calculate the weights mostly with vector-multiplications. Then you sum the weights and divide each individual weight by the total weight, with SIMD instructions, to get the proportion allocated to each agent. If you try to thread it, there are steps where all the threads would need to synchronize (You cannot, for example, divide every individual weight by the total weight until all the weights have been computed and summed.), but the individual stages could be multi-threaded as well as use SIMD.

You surely thought of that, so I’m a bit curious why it doesn’t work here. Does the weighting formula need conditionals, lookups, or other code that doesn’t vectorize?
 
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MTGian

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Yes and no.

Yes: the V2 model of an omnipresent national supermarket that everyone shops at is gone.

No: everyone's needs are not always perfectly supplied, since their ability to pay for their needs is dependent on their purchasing power. All purchasing economic agents do have stockpiles in the form of cash reserves or Wealth, and depleting those will result in adverse effects on actual people.

For example, if the price of Grain is very high, this will adversely affect the workers and owners of Food Industries and those Pops who survive on baking their own bread in the short term, while the owners of Farms will enrich themselves. In the longer term, if Food Industries can't pay high enough wages to retain their employees, both output of Groceries and demand for Grain will decrease. Eventually this will balance out the Food Industries but at the expense of Farm revenues and the Wealth of Pops who rely on Groceries.

No: you cannot operate the world economy at pre-shortage deficit level indefinitely as this will deplete Pop Wealth which will reduce demand and devastate the profitability of buildings. And when this happens in a single country, the people will eventually rise up and/or emigrate.

Yes: you can try to fix underproduction issues with subsidies, but this means paying tax revenue to keep production up. This cannot possibly be sustained long-term in anything but specific segments of an economy, typically strategic ones that other industries rely on.

I will take a look at all of the details (and ramifications) of this system when I have a bit more time. In the meantime, I just wanted to post something thanking lachek for being willing to spend the time to provide all of these details and explain this system in more depth. In my experience, this is not typical of game developers and I really appreciate it. Thank you so much, sir! You are awesome!
 
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bigrigg47

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Wow, and people thought the devs were the ones wanting to dumb down the game. You've just taken a game whose core gameplay is about working with a semirealistic model of a market economy and turned it into the very much not that. You're basically ripping out the heart of the game with what you propose.
Come on dude, they're not actually proposing that they switch to a system like this, they're just saying that a game could have a functioning economic system without prices. And they're right! It would just be very different from the current system. No need to be mean. I think we all agree that that sort of system wouldn't be right for Victoria.
 
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bigrigg47

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What is the need for base prices? Why not just let the market determine the price?
I don't really know, but perhaps it's some sort of measure of its inherent desirability (especially as compared to its possible substitutes and other goods in a pop's needs). For example, luxury furniture might have a higher base price than regular furniture just to represent how much nicer the luxury furniture is. I might be willing to spend 10% of my income on furniture, but 15% on luxury furniture (consequently having to buy less bread for example), because I'd rather have more luxury furniture than more bread.

I might be conceptualizing this completely wrong though.
 

Jorlaan

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...is something we have yet to see in this game so far.

Went ahead and finished that clearly unfinished post. I guess you hit post a little early by mistake, it happens!
 
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Lorehead

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I don't really know, but perhaps it's some sort of measure of its inherent desirability (especially as compared to its possible substitutes and other goods in a pop's needs).
Isn’t really any such thing in mainstream economic theory. Something’s value is generally considered to be what somebody else would pay for it. In theory, you could just compute that from which pops want the good how much and how wealthy they are, but it sounds like they’re using this system as a simplification, for performance.
 

Ivashanko

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This is only because the implementation was flawed. Also this kind of thing you was doing was one of things leading to global liquidity crisis on par with chinese gold miners and bengal farmers hoarding all money for themselves. Some mods that try to fix it are heavily limiting tax rate or add tax refunds. And with heavily limited tax rate you will often find yourself scratching your head and thinking if you want to increase an education budget or take a loan to build up industry. But sadly AI was itself designed to hoard massive warchest to work on full capacity (i guess it was kind of an attempt to fix bankruptcies?).

Has there ever been a game that implemented a decent closed-money system? 'Cause Victoria 2 objectively did not.

The question isn't rhetorical: I'm genuinely curious.
 

makapse

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This DD has explained how prices work in the free market economies. What about command economies? Presumably, supreme leader can set prices to whatever is deemed good for the population? Are there any limits to that? What happens if they are set at the level where buy orders will exceed supply orders? Since it's not a free market, prices are fixed and wouldn't go up?
nah, I think they work the same. Where exactly was it mentioned that this DD is only for free markets?
 

bigrigg47

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Isn’t really any such thing in mainstream economic theory. Something’s value is generally considered to be what somebody else would pay for it. In theory, you could just compute that from which pops want the good how much and how wealthy they are, but it sounds like they’re using this system as a simplification, for performance.
I was thinking of it less of each good having an inherent value, and more of an abstraction of the basic level of how much pops want a good. For example, in general (massive oversimplification), humans would rather eat meat than bread, so it'd make sense that they'd be willing to put more of their purchasing power towards meat than bread. I guess this only works for consumer goods (no idea how that would work when you're talking about industrial inputs for example), and would heavily overlap with a pop-based system of desires and purchasing power, but since that is obviously very computational intensive, I could see this as a way to just simplify calculations.

Or also it could just mostly be a way to ground prices so that they don't fly off to infinity or to zero (as they would probably sometimes do in a pure supply and need system that isn't 100% perfectly calibrated and balanced).
 

Lorehead

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Has there ever been a game that implemented a decent closed-money system? 'Cause Victoria 2 objectively did not.

The question isn't rhetorical: I'm genuinely curious.
MMORPGs have been needing to manage their in-game currencies for a while. There’s a classic essay by a former designer of Ultima Online who talked about how, in his interview, he knew he’d get the job when they asked him about the same example he’d given them in his proposal. It was about how a dragon might go out and kill beasts, but if the heroes killed him, they'd find he played an important role in the ecosystem, so their quest might instead be to drive herds of livestock into his lair for him to eat. He says that, while they stayed with his original economic system, the in-game currency never inflated.

It didn’t work out: because you raised skills by crafting items, players would create thousands upon thousands of useless items nobody wanted and dump them on the in-game merchants for nothing, until the merchants had no money and nobody could make a living except through playerkilling. The game tried to fix that by having merchants’ stocks and purses replenish every day, but this meant introducing more and more money into the system, which accumulated in the hands of players, until anything they actually wanted to spend it on cost exorbitant amounts. That led to various attempts to add money sinks and bring the system somewhat back in balance, such as adding expensive castles the players could buy and thieves to rob them.
 
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WARenie

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Has there ever been a game that implemented a decent closed-money system? 'Cause Victoria 2 objectively did not.

The question isn't rhetorical: I'm genuinely curious.
I think, it's kind of wicked circle. As a big company it's not really profitable to experiment with it, safer, more predictable and simpler to work out solutions like current are always preferable. And small, starting out groups don't have experienced developers who could help them out to do it. But it's not impossible, something like this could be implemented in a game, i guess.
 
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Lorehead

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I was thinking of it less of each good having an inherent value, and more of an abstraction of the basic level of how much pops want a good. For example, in general (massive oversimplification), humans would rather eat meat than bread, so it'd make sense that they'd be willing to put more of their purchasing power towards meat than bread. I guess this only works for consumer goods (no idea how that would work when you're talking about industrial inputs for example), and would heavily overlap with a pop-based system of desires and purchasing power, but since that is obviously very computational intensive, I could see this as a way to just simplify calculations.

Or also it could just mostly be a way to ground prices so that they don't fly off to infinity or to zero (as they would probably sometimes do in a pure supply and need system that isn't 100% perfectly calibrated and balanced).
I don’t think we disagree. In theory, you could derive this from the preferences and wealth of each pop, but in practice, they might just be approximating it to, “the baseline cost of a unit of meat is one hour of the average wage.”
 
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