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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #6 - Interest Groups

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Hello once again and welcome back to yet another Victoria 3 dev diary. Where previous dev diaries have been focusing on the economy, we’re now going to switch gears to another core pillar of the Victoria series - internal politics! More specifically, we’re going to be talking about Interest Groups, which form the nucleus of Victoria 3’s political gameplay.

What then, are Interest Groups? Fundamentally, an Interest Group is a collection of pops that espouse certain political views and want to change the country to be more in line with those views. Interest Groups are drawn from a number of different templates, but will vary in their exact views from country to country, based on factors such as the local religion, which social movements have appeared in the country or the personal views of their leader.

The Landowners is an Interest Group dominated by the Aristocracy and tends to be firmly in the conservative side of politics
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As mentioned, Interest Groups are fundamentally made up of Pops - all individuals in all Pops are either members of an Interest Group or Politically Inactive, with the ratio in each based on factors such as Profession, Wealth, Literacy etc. Individuals inside Pops contribute Political Strength to their Interest Group of choice, with the amount they contribute again dependent on multiple factors, the main ones being their material Wealth and the status (and/or votes!) they are offered under the nation’s power structure.

For example, a single wealthy Aristocrat in an Oligarchy will provide hundreds or even thousands times the political strength of a poor laborer. The total Political Strength of all Pops in an Interest Group is what gives it its level of Clout - the amount of political weight it can assert on the country and the government. It’s important to note though that Pops are not unified in which Interest Groups they support - individuals within Pops are the ones who decide their Interest Group, and a single Pop can potentially have individuals supporting every Interest Group in the game (in different numbers).

Some Pops have no political strength at all, usually due to being disenfranchised under the nation’s laws (such as people of a religion or culture that is discriminated against, or women in countries that haven’t instituted women’s suffrage). These Pops are ‘outside the system’ so to speak, unable to demand reform through the regular political system of Interest Groups, and instead having to rely on other methods to put pressure on the government, but we won’t focus on those today.

Individual members of a Pop can support different Interest Groups - or stay out of politics altogether!
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As mentioned above, Interest Groups have a number of ideologies which determine their views on which laws the country should or should not enact. Different Interest Groups will have different ideologies (the Landowners are significantly more conservative than the Trade Unions, for example - shocking, I know!) but these are not entirely set in stone - they can change over the course of the game and will also vary based on the current leader of the Interest Group, who comes with his or her own personal ideology and view of the world. Additionally, some Interest Groups in certain countries have unique ideologies colored by their religion and culture, such as the Confucian Scholars Interest Group in Qing China who (unsurprisingly) espouse a Confucian ideology.

Interest Groups will generally favor laws that benefit them in some way
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I mentioned previously that Interest Groups have a level of Clout based on the total Political Strength of their constituent Pops. Clout is calculated by comparing their Political Strength to that of the other Interest Groups in the country - if all the Interest Groups in Belgium put together have 100k Political Strength and the Landowners have 30k, they correspondingly get 30% of the Clout in Belgium. The Interest Group’s Clout will determine their classification - Powerful, Influential or Marginalized.

Interest Groups also have a level of Approval, which is based on factors such as how much they approve of the country’s laws, whether they are in government or in opposition, and how many of their individual members are Loyalists or Radicals (more on those in a later dev diary). There are numerous other factors that can affect Approval as well, such as how you react to certain events or decisions that you take.

Together, the classification and Approval of an Interest Group determines which Traits are active for an Interest Group at any given time, and how impactful they are. There are different traits, positive and negative, with positive traits being activated when an Interest Group is happy and negative ones when they are… not so happy. If an Interest Group is Powerful, the effects of any traits they have active (good or bad) are stronger, while an Interest Group that is Marginalized cannot activate traits at all, as they are too weak to exert an effect on the whole country.

Traits are, of course, not the only way that Interest Groups can affect a country, and it’s even possible for one (or several!) angry Interest Groups to start a civil war, potentially bringing in foreign countries to support them.

Keep the aristocracy happy, and they’ll be more willing to reinvest their ‘hard-earned’ money into the country
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Now, something that’s been a hotly debated topic in the community in regards to Interest Groups is Political Parties and whether they will be a part of Victoria 3 so I want to briefly touch on this. What I can tell you for now is that we are currently looking into a solution where parties can form in certain countries as constellations of Interest Groups holding a shared political platform. This is something that’s by no means fully nailed down at this point though, so don’t take this as a 100% firm commitment to how they would function. What I can tell you for sure is that we will come back to this particular topic later!

That’s all for today, though we’ll certainly be coming back to the subject of Interest Groups and looking at the different types you will encounter in later dev diaries. With July and summer vacations coming up, we’re going to take a short break from Development Diaries, but we’ll be back on July 22nd as Mikael returns to continue talking about politics in Victoria 3, on the subject of Laws.
 
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Lorehead

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Yeah, if you can't influence the leaders at all then that is a problem. But that is a very different problem than "there shouldn't be any RNG about the personality and inclination of the in-game characters".
I agree. I think one way the game could flesh that out is if you saw two or three other leading Trade Unionists, Junkers, or Pious Anglicans with a chance to become their next leader. And if there were ways for the secret police to deal with them. But those were risky.
 
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jju_57

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A major unanswered question is what can the current government do to reduce, deport, jail or even kill off subversive elements (interest groups that you don't like). Let them eat Cake!!!
 
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MrNewVegas

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It's both. While the precise mechanics around how votes are counted and what role parties will play (if any) is something we're not quite yet ready to talk about, one thing that is not under discussion is that both political strength derived from Pop Wealth as well as votes cast in democratic elections will definitely count towards the effective political influence each power bloc will have. In addition, political strength can be affected by Laws (e.g. Monarchy giving more power to the Landowners) and even things like geography (Pops in the capital do get a bonus to their political strength compared to Pops who live elsewhere, while Pops in unincorporated states like colonies get much less.)

So no, we're definitely not presenting an idealized version of how democracy magically creates perfectly equitable distribution of power due to 1 man, 1 vote. But we also want elections to act as important events where it's entirely possible that the balance of power suddenly shifts overnight due to powerful popular movements, public sentiment, or voter manipulation.
I am hearing that different electoral systems are in the game and I am happy about this
 

EU3NOOB

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Having political parties form under certain conditions makes sense as they had varying influences in different countries. It didn’t make sense in Victoria 2 to have political parties in some random uncivilized nation. I commend Victoria 3 for taking a different approach that I really like.

Indeed! It's important to understand that by 1836 the modern Political Party System was a fairly new thing, only truly going back to the 18th century in Britain (Whigs Vs Tories).

So, for instance, it shouldn't be all that surprising that the framers of the US Constitution didn't factor these new fangled political parties into their new governmental structure.

When it comes to Interest Groups, I hope their positions on the issues can develop over time. For instance, once slavery is outlawed in the US, the Southern Aristocracy gradually changes their stance to reflect this major change in policy.
 
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I agree. I think one way the game could flesh that out is if you saw two or three other leading Trade Unionists, Junkers, or Pious Anglicans with a chance to become their next leader. And if there were ways for the secret police to deal with them. But those were risky.
That would be really great, but I suspect all ways to directly deal with leaders will be post-fact. From what we have seen I don't think we will be seeing characters who aren't already a leader of some kind.

What I was thinking is a more generalized way to influence what ideologies are possible. Like, if socialism is made illegal, then the leader of the armed forces (and possibly every other IG who is part of the government) can never be one.
 

Lorehead

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That would be really great, but I suspect all ways to directly deal with leaders will be post-fact. From what we have seen I don't think we will be seeing characters who aren't already a leader of some kind.
That seems to be correct about the build we see here. If the game ever adds ministers, though, they could serve in that role—and the player might even need to consider which factions have better picks for the Cabinet. For example.

What I was thinking is a more generalized way to influence what ideologies are possible. Like, if socialism is made illegal, then the leader of the armed forces (and possibly every other IG who is part of the government) can never be one.
Why not a crypto-socialist? The suggestion that it be based on the popularity of the ideas among the pops in the interest group was a great one.
 
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adil3tr

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In the historical US, yes that would be absurd. However, in a divergent US where communism is able to take root it would be a lot less absurd. Though it certainly should not be “sudden.”


Obviously this shouldn’t happen, and I don’t think it will. The ideology should already be present in the POPs that support the IG as a prerequisite.
This isn't how history actually works, come on we don't need RNG RPG elements in a demographic simulation.
 
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RocheZ

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Are all IGs preset?Will new IG generate in games?
For example,We know there's unique religious IG called Confucian Scholars in Qing.But If some chinese pop became pious christian(because of Taiping maybe),and not discriminated against by Qing's law.Will those chinese form new Church of China interest group to fight for further right?Or just choose IGs which has been written in a script at start of game.
 

诸葛孔博

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Will there be settings where interest groups control each department separately?
For example, suppose that landowners prefer conservative military strategies, neutral economic strategies, and radical diplomatic strategies, while capitalists prefer neutral military strategies, radical economic strategies, and conservative diplomatic strategies.
When an interest group acquires the ownership of a certain department, their attitude will have an impact on whether the country can successfully execute a certain action. For example, when a landowner controls the military department, players will encounter greater resistance when declaring war. , AI will also tend to maintain peace.
 

Penguin Zero

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I'm really pleased to see the mention of women's suffrage here -- it's one of the things I've been thinking about while reading the past dev diaries. Thinking more broadly, I'd like to hear more about how civil rights issues are going to be treated in the game. They were a huge part of the politics of the era, whether it's women's suffrage, racism and white supremacy in America through the Civil War, Reconstruction, and the Jim Crow era, serf emancipation movements in Russia, even the beginnings of a gay rights movement (which got a surprising amount of traction in some countries in the early twentieth century, before a major regression mid-century). It'd be hard to model the politics of post-Civil War America meaningfully without taking the race issue into account, and that's just one issue among many. I'd like to hear more on how you're going to be handling them -- whether it's attempting to do it organically and letting it rise out of the established systems, or providing special event chains and the like. Or indeed something else entirely.
 
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Lorehead

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I'm really pleased to see the mention of women's suffrage here -- it's one of the things I've been thinking about while reading the past dev diaries. Thinking more broadly, I'd like to hear more about how civil rights issues are going to be treated in the game. They were a huge part of the politics of the era, whether it's women's suffrage, racism and white supremacy in America through the Civil War, Reconstruction, and the Jim Crow era, serf emancipation movements in Russia, even the beginnings of a gay rights movement (which got a surprising amount of traction in some countries in the early twentieth century, before a major regression mid-century). It'd be hard to model the politics of post-Civil War America meaningfully without taking the race issue into account, and that's just one issue among many. I'd like to hear more on how you're going to be handling them -- whether it's attempting to do it organically and letting it rise out of the established systems, or providing special event chains and the like. Or indeed something else entirely.
And, strangely to modern sensibilities, these movements were frequently at odds with each other in this time period.
 

Lorehead

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"Confucian" as ideology? Considering how often it's been put down as a religion, that's an interesting development. Or is this just broadening the "ideology" to what is commonly also considered religion? Like, would russian church have "orthodox christianity" as their "ideology"? And this also implies that there's more granularity to ideology than V2's application of reactionary-conservative-liberal-socialist-communist to pretty much everything, which is kinda nice.
This isn’t something to get too hung up on, but many historians don’t use the word “religion” in the sense Paradox games do. “Religion” originally meant “Christianity,” then came to be applied to other things that were like Christianity. Not every culture has a close equivalent to Christianity, though. It’s well-known that most East Asians don’t have one and only one affiliation that corresponds to Christianity, and a real stretch to represent everyone in Imperator: Rome as having a single “religion” either.
 
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You definitely can! One of the design pillars of Victoria 3 was to not treat liberalism as an inevitable progression but rather something that emerges organically from your actions and which you could try to hold back, or encourage, or revert. There are certainly forces (mostly economic) in the world that encourages the trend towards liberalism but you can try to build a perfect pious agrarian society if you so wish.

What if I wish to build a pious industrial society? Or is industrialization inevitably going to cause secularism?
 
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What if I wish to build a pious industrial society? Or is industrialization inevitably going to cause secularism?
Then you're probably going to be fighting against the overall will of the people. Industrialization and the increase in skilled workers that comes with it is going to make people more literate, more educated, and more economic well-off. Literacy and education means people will be more aware of marginalized groups and of their own lack of religious freedom, and economic upward mobility is going to mean people will need to worry less about economic rights and freedoms and have more time and effort to worry about social rights and freedoms. Which includes freedom to worship. You should have the ability to try and fight that if you desire, but it should be difficult to maintain that over the entire course of the game.
 

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View attachment 735824

Hello once again and welcome back to yet another Victoria 3 dev diary. Where previous dev diaries have been focusing on the economy, we’re now going to switch gears to another core pillar of the Victoria series - internal politics! More specifically, we’re going to be talking about Interest Groups, which form the nucleus of Victoria 3’s political gameplay.

What then, are Interest Groups? Fundamentally, an Interest Group is a collection of pops that espouse certain political views and want to change the country to be more in line with those views. Interest Groups are drawn from a number of different templates, but will vary in their exact views from country to country, based on factors such as the local religion, which social movements have appeared in the country or the personal views of their leader.

The Landowners is an Interest Group dominated by the Aristocracy and tends to be firmly in the conservative side of politics
View attachment 735844


As mentioned, Interest Groups are fundamentally made up of Pops - all individuals in all Pops are either members of an Interest Group or Politically Inactive, with the ratio in each based on factors such as Profession, Wealth, Literacy etc. Individuals inside Pops contribute Political Strength to their Interest Group of choice, with the amount they contribute again dependent on multiple factors, the main ones being their material Wealth and the status (and/or votes!) they are offered under the nation’s power structure.

For example, a single wealthy Aristocrat in an Oligarchy will provide hundreds or even thousands times the political strength of a poor laborer. The total Political Strength of all Pops in an Interest Group is what gives it its level of Clout - the amount of political weight it can assert on the country and the government. It’s important to note though that Pops are not unified in which Interest Groups they support - individuals within Pops are the ones who decide their Interest Group, and a single Pop can potentially have individuals supporting every Interest Group in the game (in different numbers).

Some Pops have no political strength at all, usually due to being disenfranchised under the nation’s laws (such as people of a religion or culture that is discriminated against, or women in countries that haven’t instituted women’s suffrage). These Pops are ‘outside the system’ so to speak, unable to demand reform through the regular political system of Interest Groups, and instead having to rely on other methods to put pressure on the government, but we won’t focus on those today.

Individual members of a Pop can support different Interest Groups - or stay out of politics altogether!
View attachment 735822

As mentioned above, Interest Groups have a number of ideologies which determine their views on which laws the country should or should not enact. Different Interest Groups will have different ideologies (the Landowners are significantly more conservative than the Trade Unions, for example - shocking, I know!) but these are not entirely set in stone - they can change over the course of the game and will also vary based on the current leader of the Interest Group, who comes with his or her own personal ideology and view of the world. Additionally, some Interest Groups in certain countries have unique ideologies colored by their religion and culture, such as the Confucian Scholars Interest Group in Qing China who (unsurprisingly) espouse a Confucian ideology.

Interest Groups will generally favor laws that benefit them in some way
View attachment 735821

I mentioned previously that Interest Groups have a level of Clout based on the total Political Strength of their constituent Pops. Clout is calculated by comparing their Political Strength to that of the other Interest Groups in the country - if all the Interest Groups in Belgium put together have 100k Political Strength and the Landowners have 30k, they correspondingly get 30% of the Clout in Belgium. The Interest Group’s Clout will determine their classification - Powerful, Influential or Marginalized.

Interest Groups also have a level of Approval, which is based on factors such as how much they approve of the country’s laws, whether they are in government or in opposition, and how many of their individual members are Loyalists or Radicals (more on those in a later dev diary). There are numerous other factors that can affect Approval as well, such as how you react to certain events or decisions that you take.

Together, the classification and Approval of an Interest Group determines which Traits are active for an Interest Group at any given time, and how impactful they are. There are different traits, positive and negative, with positive traits being activated when an Interest Group is happy and negative ones when they are… not so happy. If an Interest Group is Powerful, the effects of any traits they have active (good or bad) are stronger, while an Interest Group that is Marginalized cannot activate traits at all, as they are too weak to exert an effect on the whole country.

Traits are, of course, not the only way that Interest Groups can affect a country, and it’s even possible for one (or several!) angry Interest Groups to start a civil war, potentially bringing in foreign countries to support them.

Keep the aristocracy happy, and they’ll be more willing to reinvest their ‘hard-earned’ money into the country
View attachment 735820

Now, something that’s been a hotly debated topic in the community in regards to Interest Groups is Political Parties and whether they will be a part of Victoria 3 so I want to briefly touch on this. What I can tell you for now is that we are currently looking into a solution where parties can form in certain countries as constellations of Interest Groups holding a shared political platform. This is something that’s by no means fully nailed down at this point though, so don’t take this as a 100% firm commitment to how they would function. What I can tell you for sure is that we will come back to this particular topic later!

That’s all for today, though we’ll certainly be coming back to the subject of Interest Groups and looking at the different types you will encounter in later dev diaries. With July and summer vacations coming up, we’re going to take a short break from Development Diaries, but we’ll be back on July 22nd as Mikael returns to continue talking about politics in Victoria 3, on the subject of Laws.


Cool!
one Question:

Can you "get rid off" a Interest Group Leader to get one whos views are more in line with your political Strategy?
 

orko2020

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Presumably this will be further covered in a future diary, but what kinds of interactions will we be able to have with IG leaders? Could we, say, spy on them? Assassinate them?
 

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With that picture of the Anglican Church, they have a "neutral" stance towards "no schools"?? Does this mean abolishing schools is a thing??
Was that a thing in the 1800's? Seems like a rather extreme thing for any 'interest group' to be in favor of.
Also seems odd that the church would rather no schools than public/private schools.

If abolishing all schools is a thing though, I mean you gotta do a child slave labor playthrough right? No? Just me?
 
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One slight limitation of this "% Support per IG per POP" model is of course that, looking at a single POP, there is no difference between "half the POP support A and not B, the other half B and not A" and "all of the POP supports A and B".
So I wonder if it would be worth it introducing opposition of POPs to IGs as well. Then the above scenarios could be separated, since the first would be "support for A = support for B = 50% = opposition to A = opposition to B", and the second would be "support for A = support for B = 50%, opposition to A = opposition to B = 0%".

Of course it's not quite clear what sort of impact this additional information can make, but this model seems to me like a fairly efficient way to have a scale between uniform and non-uniform IG support.