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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #58 - Interest Revisions

16_9.jpg

Hello and welcome to yet another Victoria 3 development diary. Today is going to be a fairly brief dev diary discussing some design changes in diplomacy that happened as a result of internal playtesting and feedback, specifically to the mechanics of Interests and their significance in the game.

Interests, as you may recall from Dev Diary #19, are essentially a country having a diplomatic presence in a particular Strategic Region, either as a result of owning territory there, having a subject that owns territory there, or through a Declared Interest. Back then, Interests merely limited where you start Diplomatic Plays and Establish Colonies, and acted as a guide for the AI in terms of which countries it needed to care about

With so many Great Powers maintaining Interests there, Europe is a perilous place to start a Diplomatic Play in
DD58_1.jpg

So, what has changed between then and now? Well, basically, playtesting revealed two principal issues with Interests in the game. The first was that they simply didn’t feel significant enough, because they only tied directly into colonization and diplomatic plays. The second was that the number of declared Interests a country had available to them was based solely on rank, which meant that Austria with its miniscule navy was able to maintain almost as global a presence as the British with their, well, definitely not so miniscule navy.

To solve the first problem, we decided to do a little experiment - what if instead of just limiting colonization and diplomatic plays, Interests were required for all forms of diplomacy, up to and including trade? This was an idea we’d kicked around previously, but the concern was that it’d simply be too limiting, particularly where trade was concerned, because as mentioned, the only way to get more Interests was to increase your country rank, and once you were a Great Power, well that was it. No more trade partners, at least not of your own choosing.

The solution to the second problem, then, turned out to also be the key to the first one: tying the navy directly into declared Interests. The number of declared Interests from rank were reduced, and instead, Naval Bases now produce declared Interests, with one declared Interest provided per 10 flotillas that a country has. In other words, while Austria can now maintain a handful of declared Interests around Europe to look out for its national interests (pun intended), the size of Britain’s fleet allows it to poke its nose into the business of just about any corner of the world that it wants to.

Spain’s navy may not be what it once was, but it’s still large enough to allow the Spanish a greater diplomatic reach than their Major Power rank would otherwise allow
DD58_2.jpg

With this change made, our experiment truly came together, and allowed us to greatly expand the scope of the Interest mechanic. Instead of just being a requirement for taking over land, Interests now signify a formal diplomatic presence in a region without which you simply do not have the ability to interact with that region at all - no French diplomats in Southeast Asia means no French diplomacy in Southeast Asia.

In no particular order, here are all the mechanics that now tie into Interests:
  • Diplomatic Plays & Colonization: As before, a country must have an Interest in a region to start a Diplomatic Play or begin colonizing there.
  • Diplomatic Actions: To conduct diplomacy with a country, you must now have at least one overlapping Interest - meaning they must have an Interest in any strategic region where you also have an Interest. For example, Texas can conduct diplomacy with Britain if Britain maintains an Interest in the Dixie Region, even if Texas has no Interests outside the Dixie region.
  • Trade: To establish a trade route between two markets, one of the two market owners has to have an Interest in any region where the other market is present. For example, if the USA maintains an Interest in La Plata where the Argentine market is present, then Argentina and the USA can trade with each other, even if Argentina doesn’t have an Interest anywhere in North America.
  • Notifications: You will only be informed about diplomatic going-ons between countries with which you have an overlapping Interest, and in states where you have an Interest in the region.

As much as the Sikh Empire might desire European allies against Britain, their landlocked position limits their options - without a coast they will have to wait for one of those powers to take an interest in North India
DD58_3.jpg

Ultimately, the result of these changes were threefold: It made Interests a far more central mechanic to the game, it increased the need for maintaining a large fleet-in-being for empires with global ambitions, and it increased immersion by having who you could and could not deal with simply make more sense. An isolated Bhutan in the Himalayas now truly feels isolated, rather than inexplicably being able to send embassies to Paraguay at a whim.

That’s it for today! I’ll be back next week with another Dev Diary on a hotly anticipated topic: The AI of Victoria 3.
 
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All the changes they mentioned here seemed to only apply to what interests do and how you get declared interests, so I assume the criteria for non-declared interests should stay the same.
The issue is that in the Sikh Empire screenshot, for example, it does not appear to have any interest in the Persia region, despite owning territory there.
 
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Sounds great roll on the 25th oct
 

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Is it just me, or are these two bullet points essentially saying the same thing? Is there something granular that I'm missing that makes them worth separate bullet points?
For Diplomacy, you only need to meet anywhere (like the example mentioned earlier of someone putting their interest in the Caribbean to be able to cozy up with Spain, France and UK), for Trade one of you has to put their interest somewhere in the other ones actual trading region. (I dunno how integrated those islands will be in their mainland markets)

Edit: Just in case you missed it when all the previous people said the same thing.
 

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The issue is that in the Sikh Empire screenshot, for example, it does not appear to have any interest in the Persia region, despite owning territory there.
they do?
 

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Is it just me, or are these two bullet points essentially saying the same thing? Is there something granular that I'm missing that makes them worth separate bullet points?
I'm guessing that it's something to do with the presence of Markets versus the presence of Interests; perhaps one can have an Interest in a region without a Market presence there (and maybe vice versa)
 

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Hello and welcome to yet another Victoria 3 development diary. Today is going to be a fairly brief dev diary discussing some design changes in diplomacy that happened as a result of internal playtesting and feedback, specifically to the mechanics of Interests and their significance in the game.

Interests, as you may recall from Dev Diary #19, are essentially a country having a diplomatic presence in a particular Strategic Region, either as a result of owning territory there, having a subject that owns territory there, or through a Declared Interest. Back then, Interests merely limited where you start Diplomatic Plays and Establish Colonies, and acted as a guide for the AI in terms of which countries it needed to care about

With so many Great Powers maintaining Interests there, Europe is a perilous place to start a Diplomatic Play in
View attachment 876998
So, what has changed between then and now? Well, basically, playtesting revealed two principal issues with Interests in the game. The first was that they simply didn’t feel significant enough, because they only tied directly into colonization and diplomatic plays. The second was that the number of declared Interests a country had available to them was based solely on rank, which meant that Austria with its miniscule navy was able to maintain almost as global a presence as the British with their, well, definitely not so miniscule navy.

To solve the first problem, we decided to do a little experiment - what if instead of just limiting colonization and diplomatic plays, Interests were required for all forms of diplomacy, up to and including trade? This was an idea we’d kicked around previously, but the concern was that it’d simply be too limiting, particularly where trade was concerned, because as mentioned, the only way to get more Interests was to increase your country rank, and once you were a Great Power, well that was it. No more trade partners, at least not of your own choosing.

The solution to the second problem, then, turned out to also be the key to the first one: tying the navy directly into declared Interests. The number of declared Interests from rank were reduced, and instead, Naval Bases now produce declared Interests, with one declared Interest provided per 10 flotillas that a country has. In other words, while Austria can now maintain a handful of declared Interests around Europe to look out for its national interests (pun intended), the size of Britain’s fleet allows it to poke its nose into the business of just about any corner of the world that it wants to.

Spain’s navy may not be what it once was, but it’s still large enough to allow the Spanish a greater diplomatic reach than their Major Power rank would otherwise allow
View attachment 876999
With this change made, our experiment truly came together, and allowed us to greatly expand the scope of the Interest mechanic. Instead of just being a requirement for taking over land, Interests now signify a formal diplomatic presence in a region without which you simply do not have the ability to interact with that region at all - no French diplomats in Southeast Asia means no French diplomacy in Southeast Asia.

In no particular order, here are all the mechanics that now tie into Interests:
  • Diplomatic Plays & Colonization: As before, a country must have an Interest in a region to start a Diplomatic Play or begin colonizing there.
  • Diplomatic Actions: To conduct diplomacy with a country, you must now have at least one overlapping Interest - meaning they must have an Interest in any strategic region where you also have an Interest. For example, Texas can conduct diplomacy with Britain if Britain maintains an Interest in the Dixie Region, even if Texas has no Interests outside the Dixie region.
  • Trade: To establish a trade route between two markets, one of the two market owners has to have an Interest in any region where the other market is present. For example, if the USA maintains an Interest in La Plata where the Argentine market is present, then Argentina and the USA can trade with each other, even if Argentina doesn’t have an Interest anywhere in North America.
  • Notifications: You will only be informed about diplomatic going-ons between countries with which you have an overlapping Interest, and in states where you have an Interest in the region.

As much as the Sikh Empire might desire European allies against Britain, their landlocked position limits their options - without a coast they will have to wait for one of those powers to take an interest in North India
View attachment 877000
Ultimately, the result of these changes were threefold: It made Interests a far more central mechanic to the game, it increased the need for maintaining a large fleet-in-being for empires with global ambitions, and it increased immersion by having who you could and could not deal with simply make more sense. An isolated Bhutan in the Himalayas now truly feels isolated, rather than inexplicably being able to send embassies to Paraguay at a whim.

That’s it for today! I’ll be back next week with another Dev Diary on a hotly anticipated topic: The AI of Victoria 3.
That is an exciting change! Although a bit punishing for countries that don't have or lose their access to the sea.

How will it work for revolutions and civil wars? I wouldn't want a situation when losing a naval base to rebels immediately reduces the country's outreach capacity (well, more in general, I would like to see more inertia to the system, with it growing and shrinking organically over time)
 
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What exactly is a flotilla in Vic 3? From the navies and admirals dev diary it seems like it may be in part up to the player to decide what a flotillas consists of. If that is the case, tying the number of interest directly to number of flotillas seems like something that could have a very bad impact on how players, and possibly also the AI, build their flotillas.

I'm also worried about how this could affect the AI decision making. Could it cause AI countries that otherwise has no need to maintain large navies to blow huge amounts of money on navies? Or can we expect to see AI majors like Russia or Austria who may not maintain a large amount of naval bases to struggle managing their interests?

What happens to such countires if they lose their 1-3 most important naval bases? Can the AI handle it?

Also, please stop preventing players from getting players the information they want. There is absolutely no good reason to limit the information a player can get about what goes on in the world based on where a country declares having an interest. The only thing it achieves is encouraging boring micro just to get information. I can't imagine many people enjoying that.

Remembering from the dev diary, a Flotillia most of the time represent a capital ship and some escorts.

A few exeptions exists like monitors being a group of monitors, but in most cases, a capital ship and a few escorts.

edit

it was in the questions section of the navy dev diary. I remembered it becuse it was I who asked the question

It's focused around a capital ship with escorts and support vessels, yes. With respect to smaller vessels like monitors which would have multiples to a group, the Flotilla is considered to be named after one of them. Like Battalions, Flotillas are scaled to represent the combined force of 1000 Servicemen and Officers.
 
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For diplomacy, you need to both share an interest in atleast one region.
For trade, one nation's interest has to share the presence of another's market

This means the criteria for trade is stricter.

Russia and Japan can both do diplomacy with each other if they bump into each other in China, but unless one of them has an interest in a region where the other's market exists neither can trade with the other
I don't think i have ninja'd three people before :cool:

edit:

fourth
Back in the days this wouldn't have been a case of "ninja:ing" them, but a full blown "Blue Emu:ing" them (which means ninjaing them, but with a post that is also more informative and/or coherent than the other posters entries)
 
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Back in the days this wouldn't have been a case of "ninja:ing" them, but a full blown "Blue Emu:ing" them (which means ninjaing them, but with a post that is also more informative and/or coherent than the other posters entries)
emu'd

Don't think he is active in the game forums any more, mostly hangs arround in of topic
 
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Does this mean that Free Trade is no longer free? This change to trade means that trade opportunities are now being completely subordinated to national interests, doesn't this completely eliminate the concept of free trade?
 
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I like the sound of these changes. I don't think any of the other PDX games has a mechanic quite like this (the closest is CK2 de jure titles), so it will add variety to the gameplay.

I would also like to join the chorus of voices calling for traditional message settings. It's so convenient for those of us who use them and it doesn't hurt players who don't.
 
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Tvarog

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Paradox fandom on every occasion:
"Give us massage settings"
Paradox: "making massage settings and locking them behind gameplay mechanics"

I really like this ideas and Dev diary, seems blood balance between gamey and immersive, meanwhile making navies more important in natural way. But this message option is totally opposite - unimmersive and very not user friendly.
Also would like another option of gaining interest points for landlocked countries, maybe spend some diplomatic points?
 

LiberiusX

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All aboard the hype train!
 

Andarnio

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Does this mean that Free Trade is no longer free? This change to trade means that trade opportunities are now being completely subordinated to national interests, doesn't this completely eliminate the concept of free trade?
trade routes are created by the player, so are interests, i dont see the problem, it just means that chile cant trade with russia unless either of them has an interest somewhere the other has a market presence, meaning it is comparatively easier to trade with your neighbors
 
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bigrigg47

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The issue is that in the Sikh Empire screenshot, for example, it does not appear to have any interest in the Persia region, despite owning territory there.
My best guess is that they changed the borders of the strategic regions, and now the Sikh Empire is fully contained in North India. Limiting the number of countries split over multiple strategic regions also aligns with what they're going for here with the new interest system (making isolated countries feel isolated).

Also, I feel like changing the system to only giving you an interest in your capital state would certainly have merited a mention in the DD (and it'd be a really weird change).
 
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Dimo87

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This all looks like a great improvement to me. Though, it got me wondering. Is there a war goal to remove a country from having an interest in a specific region? If not, it would be fun to stop imperialists from interfering in a region, even if for only 5-10 years.
 
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trade routes are created by the player, so are interests, i dont see the problem, it just means that chile cant trade with russia unless either of them has an interest somewhere the other has a market presence, meaning it is comparatively easier to trade with your neighbors
Game-play wise I don't think it's much if a difference (Especially since if the AI wants to trade with you they'll just declare an interest in you whether you want it or not)

But conceptually this is probably the vagueness of what the player represents again. I guess an interest means both the state establishing an embassy and formal relations with counties in a region and the population taking a general interest in the region and thus doing more business with them?
 
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munrock

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My initial reaction to this was thinking that for Great Britain this would make Portsmouth more important than London.

But that isn't the case as GB automatically has interests all over the world through its subjects and colonies.

Which makes me think that this mechanism is really only important for nations with ambitions for a global presence, or 'tall' trading nations who have an economic interest in a lot of regions, but don't have colonies or subjects in those areas so need to maintain a gameplay mechanic interest in those areas of strategic interest to protect their economic interests.

So maybe nations shouldn't get automatically declared interest in areas they have a colony or subject in - after all, if Britain's navy were to shrink dramatically they wouldn't be able to keep their subjects subjected or their colonies colonized. Maybe if France somehow occupies Portsmouth, New South Wales could be like "Hey Queensland, daddy's not answering the phone anymore... wanna join my market?"
 
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Andarnio

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Game-play wise I don't think it's much if a difference (Especially since if the AI wants to trade with you they'll just declare an interest in you whether you want it or not)

But conceptually this is probably the vagueness of what the player represents again. I guess an interest means both the state establishing an embassy and formal relations with counties in a region and the population taking a general interest in the region and thus doing more business with them?
i think it literally just means your country has an interest in the region, whether it be imperialist ambitions or diplomatic channels