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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #56 - Cultures and Religions

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Hello there! My name is Alex and I’m part of the QA team working on Victoria 3! I’m a relatively recent addition to the team, having only joined around March this year. Despite that, it has already been an incredible ride to see the game progress since then! Enough of that though, because today the topic at hand is something you likely have heard a lot about in previous dev diaries but that still deserves its own introduction: Cultures and Religions.

As you probably already know from one of our very first dev diaries, pops have a series of aspects that define and group them. These include where the pops live, what profession they have and what building they work in. On top of that, pops are also defined by their cultural and religious background.

When hovering a culture you get all kinds of data you might find useful, like in this example of the Japanese Pop culture (not to be confused with Japanese pop culture which would much later take the world by storm) tooltip
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Cultures and religions in Victoria 3 are closely related and a central concept of what makes the game work. At their core, both of them work by having a set of traits that define how closely-related different cultures and religions are. These traits are what determine if a culture or religion will be accepted or discriminated against based on the different laws you might have in your country. As an example, both Catholicism and Protestantism have the Christian trait, meaning that they accept each other under the Freedom of Conscience law – which requires a shared trait between the religions - but not under the State Religion law – a law under which only pops of the state religion are accepted. The last alternative is of course the Total Separation law which accepts all religions no matter what traits they have..

The world has many cultures and traditions to get to know and learn more about.
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Cultures work slightly differently. For one, you have descriptive traits such as which language a culture generally speaks, i.e. lusophone or hispanophone. You also have a special kind of trait called heritage which generally describes very broadly where a certain culture originated from geographically. Some laws specifically require cultures to share a heritage with the primary cultures for them to be accepted, such as National Supremacy and Racial Segregation. There’s also Cultural Exclusion which requires at least a single trait to be shared for the culture to be accepted. Finally, Multiculturalism accepts all cultures regardless of traits.

Maybe your ideal run is to achieve prosperity as an independent Greenland where the Inuit culture gets to decide its own destiny.
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Closely tied to cultures and religions are the concepts of taboos and obsessions. Both of these affect, either negatively or positively, how much Pops are willing to pay for and consume certain goods. As such, both taboos and obsessions only apply to consumer goods as opposed to military or industrial goods (so no tank obsessions, sorry). Obsessions are tied to cultures, for instance the French culture being obsessed with wine or the Nepali with tea. As you might have guessed, taboos on the other hand are tied to religions. Importantly though, they still manifest themselves culturally. Every culture has a religion tied to it and “inherits” the taboos from that religion. This means that a catholic turkish pop will still have a taboo against wine and liquor for instance.

The Nepali know Tea is the superior hot drink and not that bitter bean juice people call coffee.
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Another difference between obsessions and taboos is that while taboos don’t change throughout the game, obsessions are more fleeting and can emerge organically or be removed in case something significant happens, like the Opium Crisis for instance. If a certain good is abundantly available in a market, the Pops in that market have a small chance of becoming obsessed with it.

A prominent leader of the Comanche, Puhihwitsikwasu, or Iron Jacket for the uncultured Europeans, gets some impressive culturally defined clothes and headdress.
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Cultures and religions touch on most of the game’s mechanics in one way or another as can be seen from previous dev diaries. From mechanics related to secessions, migrations and unifications all the way to discrimination, political strength and conversion/assimilation. Cultures are also tied to visual changes such as the appearance of characters. When playing Victoria 3, you will often be thinking about cultures in one way or another.

On top of all that, it might interest some of you that cultures and religions are very easily moddable to do what you want. Below you can find a quick Blorg culture mod I made with some details like localization files omitted. All in all a very simple process!

I’m fully expecting someone to make a “Blorg invasion from Outer Space” total conversion alt history mod now.
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As you can see, the modding itself is very simple, even though I glossed over a few details like localization files and properly defining cultural traits as well as actually creating a Pop with the Blorg culture, but all of that is very straight forward.

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That’s all for me folks! Exciting times are ahead of us and I’m looking forward to having you all play the game when it’s finally time. Until then maybe I’ll see you at our first upcoming stream next week or maybe even at PDXCON? Either way, next time Mikael will tell you a bit more about The Journey so Far!
 
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The trait for Albanians and Bosnians shpuld be "Ottoman heritage" or something like that which would make them tolerated in Ottoman Empire. @Alexhesse
The word "Heritage" has a technical meaning in Vicky 3's culturographic system; under that system, I can assure you that Bosnian culture should have the same Heritage as Serbian and Croatian culture.

So while some kind of trait-based "favoured status" is potentially a good idea, it should not contain the word "Heritage".
 
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Wtf this culture map looks horrendous compared to Victoria II?

Can't you guys render the culture map mode on a provincial basis and also show minorities in striped coloring like the previous game? This is really uninformative at a glance. Why do so many cultures match their 2022 disposition? The balkans look too clean as a result.
 
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You would think a Persianized Ottoman Turks will favor Persians too, but this was also not the case.

I don't think this was the case in the 19th century. But early on the Ottomans very much did favour Persians in their government. To the point that there were jokes that the best way a Turk could become an official was to leave to Persia, change his name and come back.
 
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PetarM

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Just a brief look at the map of East Asia shows a lot of very obvious errors. Hopefully, by the time the game comes out you will have corrected the most glaring ones.

As others have pointed out, Yue and Min are really the Han. Historically, there were 5 officially recognised "races" in the Qing Empire: Han, Manchu, Mongol, Hui (Muslims) and Tibetans. Personally, I would prefer if you used the historical classification of the time, instead of the modern day ethnic groups.

In the early 19th century, the Uyghurs were a majority only in the southern half. while the northern half was repopulated by Han, Mongols, Manchu, Hui and Uyghurs, Uzbeks following the destruction of the Mongol Dzungars by the Qing.

Xinjiang did not exist as a single unit in the early 19th century, but two: Dzungaria (Northern Xinjiang) and the Tarim Basin (Southern Xinjiang). The Tarim Basin was known as the Huibu ("Muslim region") at the time while the northern half had several names including Zhunbu or Tianshan Beilu (Northern March) and was settled by a majority Han population. The Han were not allowed under the Qing to settle in the Tarim Basin area. It wasn't until 1884 that the two regions were combined into one province called Xinjiang.
 
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Well, I didn't say they don't. Many Greeks, Serbians, etc were also in administration, but it heavily skewed to Albanian for some reason. Obviously, the reason is complex, being Muslims was a reason for it but not the only one. You would think a Persianized Ottoman Turks will favor Persians too, but this was also not the case.
Being a tiny irrelevant minority was a big element. Divide and rule politics are as old as imperialism. If you raise up too many powerful Kurds they might start looking at Kurdistan and getting ideas. Empower all the Albanians in Albania, though, and they’re not going to overturn the empire.
 
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By mid-nineteen century Russian and Ukrainian languages were sufficiently separate even for illiterate peasants.
But was the difference continuous or discrete? That is, was there a sharp delimitation between 'Russian' and 'Ukrainian' speaking areas or did they form a smooth 'East Slavic' dialect continuum? Obviously this is in regards to the vernacular of the peasantry; the literate classes had already begun adopted standardized 'national' languages (presumably based on the Moscow and Kiev dialects respectively). Although the Russian aristocracy often preferred to speak French anyway.
If it was a dialect continuum, how well established would the distinction have been among the general population (this is probably an applicable problem in a lot of places actually)?
By mid-nineteen century Russian and Ukrainian languages were sufficiently separate even for illiterate peasants. I looked up some research, and it seems most of the Don Cossacks were migrating from central Russia in 18th century (in the time when Ukraine had their own Cossack hosts yet), so they were predominantly Russian. However, there was a big inflow of peasants who were not allowed in the Cossack host, mainly Ukrainians. In 1830s the proportion was 60% Cossacks 40% peasants, so the game’s portrayal of the territory as mostly Ukrainian is wrong. Meanwhile by 1900s the proportion flipped to the opposite, which can be perfectly modeled through migration dynamics in game (I hope it takes distance into account, so Ukrainians will be more likely to move to neighboring empty states than all the way to Siberia).
Interestingly in Kuban and other Caucasian Cossack hosts the situation was different, as they were open for newcomers much longer (due to being on the frontier) and were largely based on Ukrainian Zaporozhdkoye host, so the are more correctly described as Ukrainians.
So, if Don is considered a Ukrainian homeland, Kuban should be as well. In any case Don should have a Russian majority at game start, while Kuban should have a Ukrainian majority (with the indeginious Cerkassians being already mostly exterminated or driven away by 1830s).
My preferred option would be to have Cossacks as a separate culture. It may be disputable scientifically, but opens up interesting opportunities for Cossack separatism which was a thing during the civil war.
A link for those interested who read Russian: http://ebookiriran.ru/index.php?id=98&section=8&view=article
AFAIK 'Cossack' was more of a social or 'lifestyle' label than an ethnic one (although the same is kind of true of 'Manchu' by the Vic3 period).
 
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Why is Han so large? My understanding was that, until the Cultural Revolution, China was a mishmash of something like 200+ cultures? Is that something you're attempting to replicate to some extent with minor cultures?
 
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But was the difference continuous or discrete? That is, was there a sharp delimitation between 'Russian' and 'Ukrainian' speaking areas or did they form a smooth 'East Slavic' dialect continuum?
Afaik, there was a continuum with no clear borders. But the same can be said of a territory between Moscow and Warsaw, despite the fact that Polish isn't even an East Slavic language. This does pose a challenge, but this challenge has to be overcome (even if the borders are a bit arbitrary), not ignored.
 

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Afaik, there was a continuum with no clear borders. But the same can be said of a territory between Moscow and Warsaw, despite the fact that Polish isn't even an East Slavic language. This does pose a challenge, but this challenge has to be overcome (even if the borders are a bit arbitrary), not ignored.
This brings up a broader point in how Vic3 handles cultures. The Victorian period is essentially when 'ethnic' nationalism as such became a major force in the general population outside of the elites and intelligentsia who had previously been largely the only ones with a reason to care about such matters of identity. A consequence of this was that in a lot of places divisions of ethnic identities became sharply demarcated where they had previously been poorly defined if at all. You could possibly even have some kind of 'dynamic' identity mechanic where cultural identities are more 'fluid' early on and become more fixed later.
 
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Why is Han so large? My understanding was that, until the Cultural Revolution, China was a mishmash of something like 200+ cultures? Is that something you're attempting to replicate to some extent with minor cultures?
That depends on your definition of culture. If you applied Western/Soviet definitions of ethnicity probably yes. Modern China has 56 ethnic groups. In the 50s when they did a first survey using Soviet methodology they identified over 100 ethnic groups, but it was politically decided to trim the number down in part because each group was to have political representation and having too many groups would become practically unwieldy. The Han were still by far the largest ethnic group.

However, as I explained above, during the Qing empire there were only 5 official races/ethnics in the Empire, the Han being by far the most numerous and dominant in an area larger than shown in the WIP culture map.

The identity of who is Han developed over several millennia and is quite unlike the European idea of ethnicity.

Furthermore, the idea that non-Han people can be Chinese too was officially promoted by the Qing Manchu emperors for several centuries. Nationalism in China evolved differently than in Europe: the various Han warlords never aimed to create their own individual states but to unite/restore China. Even the Manchus despite the Japanese propaganda did not really desire to secede, nor could they by the time the Empire fell apart: their homeland had become a majority Han land. The Mongol nobility did attempt independence after the fall of the Empire on the grounds that they swore allegiance to the Qing emperors alone.

The greatest and most destructive civil war of the period was religious based: the Taiping rebellion.
 
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AFAIK 'Cossack' was more of a social or 'lifestyle' label than an ethnic one (although the same is kind of true of 'Manchu' by the Vic3 period).
I think in game terms it is more relevant to look not that much on ethnic (under which we usually imply linguistic) divide, but at whether there was an identity around which a nationhood could be feasibly built. The British American settlers in late 18th century were not very distinct ethnically or linguistically from the UK British, but they had an identity distinct enough to form stand-alone entity rather than to push for representation reform throughout the Empire. On this criteria Cossacks I think are much more fitting than many other cultures present in game. They had a clear common identity different from other Russians and Ukrainians inhabiting the same territory, they had a long history of autonomy or even quasi-independent statehood (Zaporizhskaya Sich), and equally long history of violent revolts against central authority. If not for their strong anti-Bolshevik leaning, they might well have got their own autonomous republic in the RSFSR alongside many ethnic republics after the civil war (that’s a speculation of course, I don’t think it was ever actually considered)
 
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Occitan in 1836 ? Not against, it's kind of correct but surprising when there are no Andalusians, Sardinians, Sicilians or Cornish.
Occitan is nowadays the biggest cultural minority in Europe. Why would you want to hide it at that time?
It historically has had an important effect on how french state built up during this time frame…
 
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Occitan is nowadays the biggest cultural minority in Europe. Why would you want to hide it at that time?
It historically has had an important effect on how french state built up during this time frame…

Cultural minority? When was the last time you heard someone speaking in an Occitan dialect? Never seen someone say they were Occitan (outside a geographic ref to the actual région). People from the south can be proud of occitan history and culture but it mainly reference Middle Age period, not at all post-Revolution France. And France was such a centralised State in the 19th (still is), that I don't see how Occitan culture influence our political system at all.
Don't say it was a bad thing, just that Occitan culture is less relevant in the 19th that cultures that had a big impact on this period and are not represented (from Bavarians to Sicilians). But heck, if we want to take that road, I want my Francomtois patois in the game and Normands should be a thing.
 
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I think in game terms it is more relevant to look not that much on ethnic (under which we usually imply linguistic) divide, but at whether there was an identity around which a nationhood could be feasibly built. The British American settlers in late 18th century were not very distinct ethnically or linguistically from the UK British, but they had an identity distinct enough to form stand-alone entity rather than to push for representation reform throughout the Empire. On this criteria Cossacks I think are much more fitting than many other cultures present in game. They had a clear common identity different from other Russians and Ukrainians inhabiting the same territory, they had a long history of autonomy or even quasi-independent statehood (Zaporizhskaya Sich), and equally long history of violent revolts against central authority. If not for their strong anti-Bolshevik leaning, they might well have got their own autonomous republic in the RSFSR alongside many ethnic republics after the civil war (that’s a speculation of course, I don’t think it was ever actually considered)
Wasn't there a distinction between the Zaporizhia Cossacks and the Don Cossacks?

There was a short-lived Kuban republic during the RCW, but I don't know if it was actually aiming for an independent state or just a branch of the White army.
 

mikhail321

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Wasn't there a distinction between the Zaporizhia Cossacks and the Don Cossacks?

There was a short-lived Kuban republic during the RCW, but I don't know if it was actually aiming for an independent state or just a branch of the White army.
There was, but than it’s a question how granular one wants to be in game. Historically Kuban Cossacks (who a distantly descendant from Zaporizhie) toyed with independence, while Don Cossacks were loyal to Russian White Army (at least in terms of national identity, their enthusiasm for the cause varied)
 

Tomray94

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Cultural minority? When was the last time you heard someone speaking in an Occitan dialect? Never seen someone say they were Occitan (outside a geographic ref to the actual région). People from the south can be proud of occitan history and culture but it mainly reference Middle Age period, not at all post-Revolution France. And France was such a centralised State in the 19th (still is), that I don't see how Occitan culture influence our political system at all.
Don't say it was a bad thing, just that Occitan culture is less relevant in the 19th that cultures that had a big impact on this period and are not represented (from Bavarians to Sicilians). But heck, if we want to take that road, I want my Francomtois patois in the game and Normands should be a thing.
Well, Occitans didn't suddenly become a less impactful or relevant culture on their own. The French state did its damn best for centuries, and even today, to turn them into non-descript French citizens. I don't doubt that they were loyal to France throughout the period, but they also probably didn't want their culture to become functionally extinct, yet the governments of France had a different idea. This must be represented in game.
 
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SeraphAscending

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I don't doubt that they were loyal to France throughout the period, but they also probably didn't want their culture to become functionally extinct, yet the governments of France had a different idea. This must be represented in game.
Which culture wants to go extinct?
But you're right. A slow drowning out of culture is a very colonialist thing to do. (Well, that, slavery and genocide.)
I do not know anything about the Occitans specifically, but you have a point that cultural erasure or submersion/integration are also things that are very realistic and should have ingame-representation. I think it is likely that (similar to CK3) we might get more in-depth culture and religion mechanics in later updates and expansions.
 

Werther

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Most occitans were totally unable to speak french in the 19th century. I can post data on this topic if you really want...:)

I don't really see how the fact "Occitans" (which is a very imprecise and broad term by the way, I mean a Marseillais who speaks Provençal, a Gascon, or a Toulousain speaking a languedocien patois or cantalien didn't identify themselves or as a group as Occitans) couldn't speak French influenced French society or political system... I mean, ""Öccitans"""where far from the only one to not speak French before the IIIrd Republic. In 1863, 20% of the population were not speaking French, and a big part of them were from the North like Bourguignons, Francomtois, Normands, poitevins... which you could consider "French" according to the game.

I have nothing against ""Occitans"", but for me culture as presented in Vic3 is not just a dialect, some recipes and an accent. In the 19th century, you had no real "Occitan party" or militantism, not even revendications, no "occitan" litterature developped, no actual "cultural/national identity" etc etc. There were no Occitan question at all! Damn, even the term was not really used in the 19th and came back in the 2d half of the 20th (and even then it became attached only to the south west and the medieval imagery). I don't see how it influenced the society or the politcal system.

For the most part south of France was, even with dialects (which were not a southern thing, remember), part of France for centuries and well integrated, and in most of the sources I worked with people were seeing themselves as culturally French. Socially and politically southern France was really diverse and didn't differ from the north (it is more a West/East division).
 
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