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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #4 - Goods

Happy Thursday and welcome back to yet another Victoria 3 dev diary, this time on the subject of Goods! Goods are a core economic feature of Victoria 3, just as they were in previous Victoria games, and come in a wide variety of types. Also, as in previous Victoria games, the manufacturing of Goods (by Pops in Buildings) is how the vast majority of the wealth in Victoria 3 is created.

Fundamentally, a unit of Goods represent a quantity of a certain type of natural resource, manufactured good or intangible service and come attached with a price tag. This price varies both in base (a single unit of Tanks is pricier than a single unit of Fabric) and in actual market value, as the prices of Goods change depending on supply and demand.

A selection of goods that are bought and sold in the British Market.

dd4_1_2.png

There are four broad categories of Goods: Staple Goods, Luxury Goods, Industrial Goods and Military Goods. Of these, Staple/Luxury Goods are mainly consumed by Pops, and Industrial/Military Goods are mainly consumed by buildings, but there are no hard rules here - you will find Buildings using Luxury Goods and Pops purchasing Industrial Goods when and where it makes sense for them to do so.

Staple Goods are everyday goods that Pops need to live, such as food to eat, wood to heat their homes, and clothes to wear. Staple Goods tend to be purchased in vast quantities by poor and middle class pops, with richer pops generally eschewing them for luxury variants.

Grain - possibly the most Staple of all Staple Goods!
dd4_2_2.png

Luxury Goods are the things that Pops do not necessarily need but definitely want, such as fine foods, luxury drinks like Tea and Coffee, or fine clothes made from chinese silk. Luxuries tend to be more profitable to produce than Staple Goods, but depend on having a customer base with money - a poor factory worker isn’t going to be buying a whole lot of mahogany cabinets.

You can never have too many painted Ming vases, I always say.
dd4_3_2.png

Industrial Goods are goods such as Iron, Coal, Rubber and Lead whose main purpose is often to be converted into other, more profitable goods. Securing a steady supply of vital Industrial Goods is crucial to Industrialization and growing the GDP of your country.

Tools are essential to the operation of many industries.
dd4_4_2.png

Military Goods are goods such as Small Arms, Ammunition and Warships that are used by military buildings to arm and supply the armies and navies of the 19th century nations. The more technologically advanced the army or navy, the more complex (and expensive!) Military Goods they will need.

I’m told that soldiers tend to perform better if they’re given ammunition for their guns.
dd4_5_2.png


We’ll be returning to the topic of Goods in later dev diaries when discussing related mechanics such as Markets, Pop Needs, Goods Substitution and Cultural Obsessions... but for now, I bid you adieu for a while, as next week Mikael will provide you with a dev diary about something we’ve been teasing for some time now - Production Methods!
 
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wilcoxchar

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The problem in this type of a game is that it's difficult to represent uncertainty due to lack of information. Location of deposits is obviously not random, but at the start of the game there was no knowledge about many deposits, so to the nations of that time location of the deposits that would be found would look like a random process. So how do you prevent player's strategy to colonize province X (rather than Y) because the player knows that gold will be found in province X in near future?
The idea that precious metal and oil discoveries should be deterministic and railroaded also ignores that frequently, gold, silver, and oil prospecting especially at the time didn't just look like a random process, it was a random process, and finds were by no means guaranteed to happen when they did or even ever. A lot of the finds that started real life rushes were very much happy accidents, or on the last gasp before giving up, and could have easily been overlooked or missed completely and never found during the time period.
 
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Mr. Wiggles

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Gold, silver, and oil rushes were very much not historically deterministic and even in a more railroaded game should be one of the things that is more random.
Someone should tell this to the shrimps and trees sitting in the same place deep under the surface for...100 millions years?
 
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Someone should tell it to the shrimps and trees sitting in the same place deep under the surface for...100 millions years?
Some people really need to stop jumping to the worst conclusion they can think of when reading a simple fact.
 
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alanschu

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The idea that precious metal and oil discoveries should be deterministic and railroaded also ignores that frequently, gold, silver, and oil prospecting especially at the time didn't just look like a random process, it was a random process, and finds were by no means guaranteed to happen when they did or even ever. A lot of the finds that started real life rushes were very much happy accidents, or on the last gasp before giving up, and could have easily been overlooked or missed completely and never found during the time period.
I wonder if it'd be possible to have false rushes happen. (I don't think this was a thing in V2?)
 
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hayseed

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Maybe still do it as a tooltip?

Also, I'd like to up a question that somebody else made about Innovations in logistics (and lack thereof) making certain goods tradable (or not) across longer distances (e.g. meat from Argentina to Poland before the invention of refrigerators)
This is an important issue for prerailroad resources that had high bulk/weight. It was incredibly difficult to transport grain,as an example, very far by wagon. In Ohio, before canals, farmers turned their grain into pigs or alcohol. The early railroads in upstate New York were shortlines to transport grain to the Erie Canal.

A Pop in Colorado should not be able to access large quantities of cheap foreign grain prior to development of the railroad.
 
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alexti

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I wouldnt prevent any strategy. There would be locations that are more valuable than others. That is okay with me. I dont have a problem with that.
It's a possible approach, but it has downsides. If AI don't do that then the player would have unfair advantage. And if AI does that too then there would be some weird ahistoric outcomes, such as a "war over Klondike where the gold will be discovered in 50 years".
 
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kamata89

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Will raw goods be regional on the map, for example silk production in China but not in Europe or will they be like in Imperator, plopped down everywhere so it doesn't really matter where you play and still have access to every good?
most of the silk sold in europe at the start of the game was produced by the breeding of silkworms in italy and france, and was a great source of income for the production regions, the decline began with the opening of the Suez Canal and lasted in Italy until the end of the Second World War.
 
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Cheers for the DD Wizzington, and the extra info Johan/Iachek - looking the goods :cool:

There are a number of ways you can interact with goods (more on that later) but at the moment we don't have an ability to direct subsidize one particular good. There are other ways to lower the price of a good though, such as subsidizing buildings producing it or importing it in greater quantities.

The only thing that comes to mind about this is that it's not very intuitive. It's likely players familiar with Vicky 2, or real-life economic interventions, will expect to find the ability to subsidise, and the other ways are less direct and perhaps harder to understand (or perhaps not) - as long as it all works, it's all good, just mentioning the unintuitive feel. The "factory/wage" subsidy approach wraps a few levers together in a nice way, but because it bundles things together, it's could end up being less easy to intuitively understand what's going on (but may well be easier for gameplay).

Something that our UX designers have put a lot of time into is showing contextual information, in this case by allowing you to see heatmaps of production, consumption and potential production while viewing a particular good (which is extremely useful as it tells you things like where you can get coal).

This sounds very, very cool - great work/design :cool:

At the moment, Services is a single good that is non-tradable (meaning it can only be bought and sold locally) but it would be easy to split it up into different kinds of intangible goods if we wanted to.

Is there value at least splitting it between high-education services and low-education services? Bundling doctors with childcare (nannies) might make modelling the demands on educated pops? As with all my random thoughts, please ignore if already covered off.

It's all pretty technical and most of the time near-invisible on an individual Pop level, but by being judicious in simulating this stuff we get some very interesting emergent effects like brain drain, itinerant oppressed demographics, geographic wealth shifts, and so on.
Very, very cool indeed :)

For a naval pic for this week, here's an input good to warships (noting I don't expect Vicky 3 to model machinery separately to armour to armament etc) :)

1623970477539.png
 

wilcoxchar

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The biggest issue with railroading precious metal and oil discoveries is that it really does remove the real strategic thinking behind it because the player already knows where deposits are going to be ahead of time. For instance, in Victoria 2 the player knew that Arabia would become an oil producer so it was always beneficial to conquer the Arabia Peninsula decades before it actually became strategically valuable, when the AI would have no knowledge of that. It robs any real decision making or scramble for such resources when the player knows well ahead of time where they're going to pop up just because of bringing in outside knowledge. Since you can't stop the player from bringing in that outside knowledge, what you can do to make the decision making more impactful and necessary is make the discovery of the resources more randomized and give the discoveries a chance of not happening at all or happening elsewhere, within enough reason. That way the player doesn't actually know with 100% certainty what's going to happen in any particular game.
 
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hayseed

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A very reasonable compromise
This is how EU4 handles resources in colonizable provinces. The UI lists the resources that might be present and the percentage of likelihood. Then the game randomizes an outcome after the provinceis partially colonized. Makes for variability without unrealistic outcomes.
 
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This is how EU4 handles resources in colonizable provinces. The UI lists the resources that might be present and the percentage of likelihood. Then the game randomizes an outcome after the provinceis partially colonized. Makes for variability without unrealistic outcomes.
I haven't played EU4 in more than 4 years. Was that part of a DLC, was it always random, or is there an option setting? I don't recall
 
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For instance, in Victoria 2 the player knew that Arabia would become an oil producer so it was always beneficial to conquer the Arabia Peninsula decades before it actually became strategically valuable, when the AI would have no knowledge of that.
Just have Interest Groups also dictate foreign policy (just like in real life). Wars cost money, time and manpower. And why would anybody in government go along with an idiot ruler seemingly trying to conquer a worthless desert full of unruly natives, instead of trying to get into China?
 
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Lorehead

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I anxiously want to know, Whether there are different types of firearms and artillery based on technological differences, the weapon technology of the 19th century has been updated very quickly, so a large number of weapons of different technical levels have appeared. I hope that the flintlock, percussion gun, and breech loader rifle can become different" Goods" and can appear in the hands of soldiers as different weapons, not simply "Small Arms"...
In VIC2, this is a pity...
Good question. Maybe they won’t be a different type of good, but equipping your troops with better weapons will require purchasing more abstract units of Small Arms? Representing greater complexity to manufacture?
 

Lorehead

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At the current version of the game the economy isn't fully initialized with all values until a few weeks in (very much like in Victoria 2), though this is something we're working on and absolutely plan to have fixed for the eventual release version. It has to do with how many circular and interconnected effects there are in the game (for example, a drop in grain price due can lead to pops increasing their wealth level, which results in them buying more grain, which raises the price of grain again) which all needs to be properly accounted for during game initialization.
Interesting. Can this be represented as a system of equations and solved for equilibrium?
 

Sledjer

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So, I noticed that ammunition was only used by barracks and naval bases. Does this mean that ammunition is only used in making new soldiers? Or do barracks/naval bases use these and other stuff to produce a generic "supply" used by armies or something like that?
 

wilcoxchar

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Just have Interest Groups also dictate foreign policy (just like in real life). Wars cost money, time and manpower. And why would anybody in government go along with an idiot ruler seemingly trying to conquer a worthless desert full of unruly natives, instead of trying to get into China?
It's really sad how so many people's "solutions" to everything is either "make it a game option" or "don't let the player play the game and just watch instead" instead of actually putting thought into game design and mechanics.
 
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KaiserJohan

Tech Lead Victoria 3
Paradox Staff
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Sep 28, 2017
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Is any developer able to or allowed to answer my two questilns from eaelier which sadly were overlooked?


Currently Tractors have a pre-requisite tech and allows farms to consume Engines & Coal/Oil goods to vastly change the employment structure by employing a few Machinists at the expense of many Laborers and Farmers. So not directly a "Tractor goods" but abstracted into Engines&Coal/Oil. There are a ton of goods as it is so we have to draw the line somewhere.
It would of course be trivial to mod a Tractor Factory and Tractor goods yourself :)

As for buy/sell orders I would refer to the Markets dev diary!
 
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