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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #4 - Goods

Happy Thursday and welcome back to yet another Victoria 3 dev diary, this time on the subject of Goods! Goods are a core economic feature of Victoria 3, just as they were in previous Victoria games, and come in a wide variety of types. Also, as in previous Victoria games, the manufacturing of Goods (by Pops in Buildings) is how the vast majority of the wealth in Victoria 3 is created.

Fundamentally, a unit of Goods represent a quantity of a certain type of natural resource, manufactured good or intangible service and come attached with a price tag. This price varies both in base (a single unit of Tanks is pricier than a single unit of Fabric) and in actual market value, as the prices of Goods change depending on supply and demand.

A selection of goods that are bought and sold in the British Market.

dd4_1_2.png

There are four broad categories of Goods: Staple Goods, Luxury Goods, Industrial Goods and Military Goods. Of these, Staple/Luxury Goods are mainly consumed by Pops, and Industrial/Military Goods are mainly consumed by buildings, but there are no hard rules here - you will find Buildings using Luxury Goods and Pops purchasing Industrial Goods when and where it makes sense for them to do so.

Staple Goods are everyday goods that Pops need to live, such as food to eat, wood to heat their homes, and clothes to wear. Staple Goods tend to be purchased in vast quantities by poor and middle class pops, with richer pops generally eschewing them for luxury variants.

Grain - possibly the most Staple of all Staple Goods!
dd4_2_2.png

Luxury Goods are the things that Pops do not necessarily need but definitely want, such as fine foods, luxury drinks like Tea and Coffee, or fine clothes made from chinese silk. Luxuries tend to be more profitable to produce than Staple Goods, but depend on having a customer base with money - a poor factory worker isn’t going to be buying a whole lot of mahogany cabinets.

You can never have too many painted Ming vases, I always say.
dd4_3_2.png

Industrial Goods are goods such as Iron, Coal, Rubber and Lead whose main purpose is often to be converted into other, more profitable goods. Securing a steady supply of vital Industrial Goods is crucial to Industrialization and growing the GDP of your country.

Tools are essential to the operation of many industries.
dd4_4_2.png

Military Goods are goods such as Small Arms, Ammunition and Warships that are used by military buildings to arm and supply the armies and navies of the 19th century nations. The more technologically advanced the army or navy, the more complex (and expensive!) Military Goods they will need.

I’m told that soldiers tend to perform better if they’re given ammunition for their guns.
dd4_5_2.png


We’ll be returning to the topic of Goods in later dev diaries when discussing related mechanics such as Markets, Pop Needs, Goods Substitution and Cultural Obsessions... but for now, I bid you adieu for a while, as next week Mikael will provide you with a dev diary about something we’ve been teasing for some time now - Production Methods!
 
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NaRen13AnnexYourself

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Gold, silver, and oil rushes were very much not historically deterministic and even in a more railroaded game should be one of the things that is more random.
In VIC2 discovery of resources were MTTH events so they were a bit random too, sometimes they also come with time and tech conditions, I can appreciate this level of randomness but having oil/gold popping out at somewhere that absolutely can’t have these would be really confusing. Say, if Argentina finds a lot of gold at early game it would likely result in snowballing of benefits through immigration, which would produce a really, really unhistorical outcome, it would also reduce the absolute late-game importance of certain regions if this applies to oil as well.
If the devs are to give player absolute control over investment, they probably should as well give players some control over the discovery of natural resources.
 
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BrokenSky

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I feel like resource randomization is one of those things which should probably be a game rule? (Assuming Vic3 will have them)
 
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Panagean

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This is not particularly to do with this dev diary (which looks interesting!), but I want to chip in the (probably minority) opinion that so far I don't really like Vic3's art-style. Vic2 feels like I'm unrolling a set of papers and the abstraction makes it feel like genuinely how a Victorian-era megalomaniac might view the world. Having a realistic map (which I think works well in CK3, for different reasons) makes me wonder where people are getting satellite photos of the African interior. The iconography, too, I think in an effort to look clearer, looks like the Anno game from the same period, which always felt to me like something between a phone- and board-game.
 
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Hairy Dude

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Anyway, I just wanted to vote for my personal preference: places that historically had lots of gold should have lots of gold in game. No randomization. That is my preference.
My preference is a certain level of unpredictability, to provoke the kind of decision making someone in the period would be making. In Vic 2 you might conquer Johore specifically because you know it'll be full of rubber later. But in 1836 you have no use for rubber, so such a rationale appears illogical.
 
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but having oil/gold popping out at somewhere that absolutely can’t have these would be really confusing.
So somehow you decided to jump immediately from "somewhat randomized" to your personal worst possible interpretation of those words when how it worked in Victoria 2, which you say was fine, is a completely reasonable and far more likely interpretation of what the devs said.
 
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I’m told that soldiers tend to perform better if they’re given ammunition for their guns.
Poppycock! If we give the soldiers ammunition, the undisciplined fools will just waste it all in the first minute of battle. Now excuse me while I harangue Enfield arsenal to add a magazine cutoff to their new repeating rifles.

Less on the note of flippant remarks about pre-WWI officers mindsets about how untrustworthy soldiers are, will regular pops also consume some amount of military goods? After all, in this era, a lot of civilians owned small arms very similar to those the militaries of the period used, so it wouldn't be unreasonable to expect that pops, especially those in rural and frontier areas would consume a certain amount of guns and ammo. Also I wont rest until every last citizen can have a recreational ironclad.
 
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Foke

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In Victoria 3, Pops require buildings to be productive and vice versa. So for a region to be a major producer of a certain trade good, it requires a large workforce to work the buildings producing it. If a region is just highly populated but not well developed, the Pops sustain themselves off the land in Subsistence buildings, which occupy all otherwise undeveloped land by default.
When you say subsistence building does that mean there will be more than just subsistence farms? Maybe subsistence fishing?
 

Juanvito

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About randomized resources, I think they would be a pretty cool addition, as long as:

- The randomization is within reason (no rubber in Northern Canada, for example), and

- It can be turned off when starting a game.
 
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NapoleonComple

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Ohoho, this looks interesting.

Is this a challenge?
Are you planning on tanking the price of tanks, or stitching up the price of linen?

'We all drive tanks now, there's a buy 9 get the 10th free offer on them at my local lot, but there's like one textile factory left in the world, so we've pretty much gone back to wearing potted plants.'
 

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Just to make sure that I understand, you do not believe that gold, silver, and oil deposits have fixed locations?
Holy bad faith conclusion jumping Batman!
 
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wilcoxchar

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If Vicky 3 has game rules, I'd like randomness to be one. Have three options: no randomness, reasonable randomness, and complete randomness for everything.
I'd rather not triple the devs' balance work. Not every minor quibble a player has about a mechanic can or should be solved with a game rule.
 
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alexti

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Anyway, the point is, deposits obviously dont move. While there could be some randomness in the order deposits are found, an especially easy to find deposit that outcrops at surface is going to be found eventually in the same location that it was historically.

If people want randomness to make gameplay more exciting, then it should be a setting. It is not historic.
The problem in this type of a game is that it's difficult to represent uncertainty due to lack of information. Location of deposits is obviously not random, but at the start of the game there was no knowledge about many deposits, so to the nations of that time location of the deposits that would be found would look like a random process. So how do you prevent player's strategy to colonize province X (rather than Y) because the player knows that gold will be found in province X in near future?
 
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About randomized resources, I think they would be a pretty cool addition, as long as:

- The randomization is within reason (no rubber in Northern Canada, for example), and

- It can be turned off when starting a game.
To focus on the rubber example, the natural range of the rubber tree is fixed and known in 1836 (although perhaps it has no industrial use yet). It shouldn't be randomly appearing anywhere like in Victoria II, and that's not necessary either because there's no longer one RGO per province. The plantations in the natural range should be available if there is demand for rubber anywhere in the world, and it should be agricultural research that unlocks rubber plantations in each state with an appropriate climate.
 
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The problem in this type of a game is that it's difficult to represent uncertainty due to lack of information. Location of deposits is obviously not random, but at the start of the game there was no knowledge about many deposits, so to the nations of that time location of the deposits that would be found would look like a random process. So how do you prevent player's strategy to colonize province X (rather than Y) because the player knows that gold will be found in province X in near future?
The idea that precious metal and oil discoveries should be deterministic and railroaded also ignores that frequently, gold, silver, and oil prospecting especially at the time didn't just look like a random process, it was a random process, and finds were by no means guaranteed to happen when they did or even ever. A lot of the finds that started real life rushes were very much happy accidents, or on the last gasp before giving up, and could have easily been overlooked or missed completely and never found during the time period.
 
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wilcoxchar

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Someone should tell it to the shrimps and trees sitting in the same place deep under the surface for...100 millions years?
Some people really need to stop jumping to the worst conclusion they can think of when reading a simple fact.
 
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alanschu

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The idea that precious metal and oil discoveries should be deterministic and railroaded also ignores that frequently, gold, silver, and oil prospecting especially at the time didn't just look like a random process, it was a random process, and finds were by no means guaranteed to happen when they did or even ever. A lot of the finds that started real life rushes were very much happy accidents, or on the last gasp before giving up, and could have easily been overlooked or missed completely and never found during the time period.
I wonder if it'd be possible to have false rushes happen. (I don't think this was a thing in V2?)
 
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hayseed

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Maybe still do it as a tooltip?

Also, I'd like to up a question that somebody else made about Innovations in logistics (and lack thereof) making certain goods tradable (or not) across longer distances (e.g. meat from Argentina to Poland before the invention of refrigerators)
This is an important issue for prerailroad resources that had high bulk/weight. It was incredibly difficult to transport grain,as an example, very far by wagon. In Ohio, before canals, farmers turned their grain into pigs or alcohol. The early railroads in upstate New York were shortlines to transport grain to the Erie Canal.

A Pop in Colorado should not be able to access large quantities of cheap foreign grain prior to development of the railroad.
 
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alexti

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I wouldnt prevent any strategy. There would be locations that are more valuable than others. That is okay with me. I dont have a problem with that.
It's a possible approach, but it has downsides. If AI don't do that then the player would have unfair advantage. And if AI does that too then there would be some weird ahistoric outcomes, such as a "war over Klondike where the gold will be discovered in 50 years".
 
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