• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #34 - Canals & Monuments

16_9.jpg

Good evening and welcome to this week’s Victoria 3 development diary! Today’s topic is Canals & Monuments, unique buildings with special inputs, outputs, and effects.

The Vatican City is the seat of the Catholic Church and a great asset to the Papal States in Victoria 3. As Europe developed and industrialized, the power of religious authority in national politics declined steeply but never lost its relevance. Can you change the course of history and renew the temporal power of the Pope?
DD34 01.png

Monuments are unique buildings only available in specific states, each with its own 3D model on the map. They make use of some of the more interesting aspects of the production methods system; just as buildings can output Goods, they can also output both national and local modifiers, Capacities, and effects on the pops working there. The Vatican City for instance outputs the Influence capacity as well as greatly increasing the political strength of the Devout Interest Group. Meanwhile the White House adds a multiplier to your national Bureaucracy output as well as increasing the amount of political strength Pops gain from votes. Not all Monuments are present at the start date. Some, like the Eiffel Tower, must be constructed, and Monuments are significantly more costly and time-consuming to construct than standard buildings. Monuments are subsidized by government funding, so if you decide that a Monument is unaffordable or that you aren’t interested in its effects (for instance if you as communist Italy no longer want to Church to wield so much power) you can simply defund them. On release we intend to have eleven different Monuments in total.

The Panama Canal links the Atlantic and Pacific Oceans. Finally completed in 1914 after decades of planning and construction, ships no longer had to take the long and treacherous route around South America to travel between the East and West. Yes, we can see the trees and houses in the Canal - we’ll fix it!
DD34 02.png

Like Monuments, Canals are unique buildings with a special set of inputs and outputs. But the true allure of constructing a Canal is that it allows you to create new connections between sea nodes, allowing ships to travel through the isthmuses of Panama and Suez. This significantly reduces the Convoy costs for trading and supplying armies across vast ocean distances, as well as your vulnerability to unscrupulous rivals trying to disrupt your supply lines.

We use the Journal Entry system to track the progress of your canal survey. Behind the scenes a variable is increased every month until the goal is reached, which triggers the completion event. The Journal Entry also acts as a reminder that you are spending a lot of Bureaucracy on this project, and that it will eventually be made available again once the survey is complete.
DD34 03.png

Constructing a Canal is far from trivial. Before any work can begin, an extensive survey of the region needs to be conducted, costing a hefty chunk of Bureaucracy for the surveyor for around 3 years. Either the owner of the state or a Great Power with an Interest in the region can conduct a survey. Any number of countries can potentially conduct their own surveys and compete to build the Canal themselves.

We’ve made the conscious decision to avoid starting wars or Diplomatic Plays through scripted content wherever possible, instead offering incentives for the player to start their own Plays and encouraging the AI to pursue Journal Entry goals. In this case, the player has the option to either gain a Claim on Sinai or to improve relations with the owner country, helping you along your chosen path but not locking you into a particular course of action.
DD34 04.png

Once you’ve completed your survey, the path diverges depending on whether you own the appropriate land. If you already own either a Treaty Port or the whole state region you can simply begin constructing the canal, but if not you’ll need to find a way to acquire it, either through monetary or coercive means. A Decision becomes available allowing you to purchase a Treaty Port in the appropriate State Region in exchange for a series of very large weekly payments, assuming you can convince the local rulers to part with the port. You might however decide that you’d rather keep your money and start a Diplomatic Play for a Treaty Port or the entire State Region (the former will cost you a lot less Infamy), which might lead either to a peaceful concession to your demands or to war.

And that’s all for today! Next week I’ll be handing you over to one of our Content Designers to talk about Expeditions and Decisions.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
  • 202
  • 172Like
  • 28
  • 17Love
  • 5
  • 3Haha
Reactions:

grommile

Field Marshal
66 Badges
Jun 4, 2011
22.418
38.618
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Stellaris
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Teleglitch: Die More Edition
  • Victoria 2
  • 500k Club
  • March of the Eagles
  • Knights of Pen and Paper 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Prison Architect
Yeah, looking at these, I won't be getting any achievements in Vicky 3 unless there's an achievement-OK "disable monuments" rule.
 
  • 14
  • 4Like
Reactions:

arctus

Colonel
59 Badges
Sep 20, 2007
1.077
818
  • Hearts of Iron II: Armageddon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Darkest Hour
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Deus Vult
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • Arsenal of Democracy
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Cities: Skylines
  • 500k Club
  • Victoria 2
Well, this is for me at least the first step in a direction which i dont want this game to go. You're opening pandoras box to all kind of magical effects for this game, it seems small at first but if this road continues i will not get this.
 
  • 19
  • 1Like
Reactions:

MrRazza

Sergeant
May 23, 2021
53
541
  • Should countries be allowed to build duplicates? After all, if the White House gives such a sweet bonus then shouldn't France or China be able to build the White House too? At that point these buildings become not really special in any way - the White House becomes just a "Bureaucracy Multiplier Palace", the Eiffel Tower just a "Prestige Tower", etc.

So herein lies a lot of the problems with the system as designed. It's utterly arbitrary. Because, no, actually, there isn't really something inherently very special in any way about the White House. Why couldn't France and China build the White House? Well, it's true they didn't, but France has the Élysée Palace, where the President lives, and China has the Forbidden City, where its government was centred for centuries. What is it about these buildings that does not afford these countries a political or governance buff? So many countries have landmark buildings which are or were key to their system of government, so why the White House, and why that buff?

I suspect we can answer some of that by simply noting that the White House is famous and carries some symbolic meaning to it today. It is famous today because it is the home of one of the most powerful people on the planet - arguably the most powerful person who enjoys their status by virtue of election - but that's just how history happened to pan out. Making buffs based on how history panned out isn't really in keeping with a sandbox ethos, is it? And history certainly did not go the way it did because the White House was there. Indeed, I suspect France could have opted to build a White House, and that if that was all that was changed just about every historical event would have unfolded the same way. Buildings do not bestow magic powers, they commemorate, or come to symbolise, aspects of a country's past and culture. They're important, yes, but when do they make a country's future? And would they mean the same thing if a different country rocked up one day and said they owned the land they were on now? I suspect not. Even in today's context, the buildings we consider symbolically important, and what it is they mean, will vary between different people, different cultures, and different times. You might reach some vague consensus on the very most famous ones, but any chosen buff will still ultimately be arbitrary.

If Vic 3 is a sandbox game, you cannot have national buffs. These are national buffs. Worse, they are national buffs that, inevitably, can only use our subjective preconceptions and understanding of the world today as a basis. They are buffs built on the way we read history as it is, not how it could have gone, and certainly not on how we might choose to utterly rewrite it. It's fundamentally against the philosophy that has underpinned a game that has otherwise thus far looked pretty damn solid. Representing the Vatican makes sense, but a magic building with an arbitrary number is not the way to do it. History was made by people, institutions, decisions... not the eternal aura of a building.

I'm sure hands have already been gleefully rubbed at the very thought of the Art Deco Collection and Middle East Wonders DLC packs, but I hope this approach to monuments is seriously reconsidered.

(And as for duplicates not being special, don't tell Blackpool or Las Vegas! :p)
 
  • 31
  • 3Like
  • 2
Reactions:

DominusNovus

Field Marshal
86 Badges
Oct 2, 2007
7.621
7.048
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • 500k Club
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris: Necroids
Monuments, unless they are sepcifically productive, should offer nothing but prestige and, if the concept of tourism can be incorporates, income.

Edit: by specifically productive, I mean something like some the Hoover dam (built right on the edge of the time frame of the game).
 
Last edited:
  • 18
  • 1Like
Reactions:

BrotherJonathan

Petty King of Washington
49 Badges
Jun 15, 2015
949
2.055
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Surviving Mars
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Knights of Honor
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 - Second Wave
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44 Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
Maybe monuments could be integrated into the journal system somehow? Like, for example, if your are playing as the USA and your have more than x level of immigration for y years you can build the Statue of Liberty to gain extra prestige?

Also, Baltic-White Sea Canal?
 
  • 3
  • 1Like
Reactions:

wilcoxchar

Field Marshal
98 Badges
Nov 15, 2004
5.111
17.588
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • 200k Club
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis: Rome Collectors Edition
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Deus Vult
  • Diplomacy
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Hearts of Iron Anthology
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For The Glory
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • March of the Eagles
Brasilia is outsite of the timeframe, but we still have exemples like Canberra in Australia which was also a designed city to serve as capital of Australia.
Good point. I'd forgot about Canberra and didn't realize it was planned as far back as confederation since it's always seemed more modern in its conception. I would support Old Parliament House being a monument on the same lines as something in DC, though of course giving a different bonus than whichever specific building or complex they end up using to represent DC, since Australia does not have to administer nearly as many states as the United States does to realistically model historic administration. Old Parliament House or something else in Canberra would also be a good addition to actually give Oceania a monument when it would otherwise be left out of regions getting a monument. Good suggestion!
 
  • 2
  • 1
Reactions:

wilcoxchar

Field Marshal
98 Badges
Nov 15, 2004
5.111
17.588
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • 200k Club
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis: Rome Collectors Edition
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Deus Vult
  • Diplomacy
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Hearts of Iron Anthology
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For The Glory
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • March of the Eagles
So... Our options are either suffer the consequences of a monument we conquer or destroy it?

I think you may understand why these alternatives are a bit silly? It's extreme and nonsensical. Just add a button to deactivate monuments and make it so they give a paltry amount of prestige instead of their effects.
No. Read the dev diary again.

"Monuments are subsidized by government funding, so if you decide that a Monument is unaffordable or that you aren’t interested in its effects (for instance if you as communist Italy no longer want to Church to wield so much power) you can simply defund them."
 
  • 1
  • 1
Reactions:

SignedName

Field Marshal
48 Badges
May 29, 2013
2.636
3.057
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Semper Fi
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Hearts of Iron III Collection
  • Hearts of Iron III: Their Finest Hour
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • For the Motherland
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
Thinking about it, maybe there is a way to make the White House work, if we attach the idea of the White House to that of the Presidency. In this era, people would actually visit the White House and speak directly with the president, so the White House could represent the relatively higher accessibility the populace had to the POTUS than other heads of state. In game-mechanical terms, this could translate into making it easier to Promote Interest Groups (also represents the spoils/patronage system), a more elegant and sensible solution than trying to simulate the federal system via a monument, and makes the White House unique and not just a glorified Government Administration building.
 
  • 3
Reactions:

wilcoxchar

Field Marshal
98 Badges
Nov 15, 2004
5.111
17.588
  • Europa Universalis III: Collection
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis: Rome
  • Semper Fi
  • Sengoku
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • 200k Club
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis: Rome Collectors Edition
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Deus Vult
  • Diplomacy
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Hearts of Iron Anthology
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • For The Glory
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • March of the Eagles
Thinking about it, maybe there is a way to make the White House work, if we attach the idea of the White House to that of the Presidency. In this era, people would actually visit the White House and speak directly with the president, so the White House could represent the relatively higher accessibility the populace had to the POTUS than other heads of state. In game-mechanical terms, this could translate into making it easier to Promote Interest Groups (also represents the spoils/patronage system), a more elegant and sensible solution than trying to simulate the federal system via a monument, and makes the White House unique and not just a glorified Government Administration building.
If you want to model the US government being more accessible to the public, then in game mechanics terms that would mean making the US less able to control which interest group is in power, not more. And one of the bonuses the devs have given the White House already does that. By giving POPs more political strength through votes, it represents the government being more open and accessible, and thereby more susceptible to public opinion, well for whoever controls DC and funds the monument. It also means the US is going to be a little more geared toward controlling its interest groups through controlling who gets the vote rather than directly promoting or suppressing interest groups, which is pretty well in line with how the US's behavior was historically and should realistically be in the game.
 
  • 6
  • 3
Reactions:

wickermoon

Lt. General
80 Badges
Jan 10, 2013
1.303
602
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • March of the Eagles
  • Magicka
  • Knights of Pen and Paper +1 Edition
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Dungeonland
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Stellaris
  • Victoria 2
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • 500k Club
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris Sign-up
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
I love the idea of monuments and most of what it entails, but I can totally understand the objections raised by people. The White House effect is historical usa-centric and in the context of the historical USA, it makes sense. But if you diverge from that preconception of the USA, the monument bonus suddenly starts to fall apart and doesn't make any sense anymore. The same happens, of course, when you conquer it with another nation.

Heavy use of conditions doesn't solve the problem, as well. If the bonuses are good enough, this'll lead to people simply playing the USA the way they have to, in order to get the buff, which is something that the developers want to avoid. While I would like to say that I personally have no problems with dormant modifiers, my human nature belies my obsession...probably most people's obsession, that if you see a modifier, you must have it! Otherwise, why is it there?

Still, the White House, or the Berlin Victory Column, or the Eiffel Tower, should give a very different bonus to its "home nation". Especially the Berlin Victory Column was a prestige monument that was supposed to boost nationalism and commemorate the victory in the second Schleswig War (and later commemorated the Austro-Prussian War of 1866 and Franco-Prussian War of 1870/1871). This monument was a monument of prestige and nationalism....for Prussia and the German Empire. For everyone else owning Berlin, it's just a nice tourist spot, I guess.
 
  • 8Like
  • 5
Reactions:

Brynjar

General
61 Badges
Feb 14, 2012
1.921
4.407
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Magicka 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Ship Simulator Extremes
  • Rome Gold
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Surviving Mars
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
Maybe monuments should just be cool structures you can place on the map that provide a small amount of prestige. Giving them bonus modifiers just for existing seems like a violation of the game design pillars.

Monuments, unless they are sepcifically productive, should offer nothing but prestige and, if the concept of tourism can be incorporates, income.
Why prestige of all things? The game mechanic called prestige would make monuments able to give a nation:
- Significantly increased influence capacity
- Increase the number of declared interests you can have
- More maneuvers in diplomatic plays
- An affect for systems such as subjects, Infamy, diplomatic actions and more

So why, of all things, should monuments give prestige? Even a tiny amount of prestige can potentially give huge benefits, and it's not even close to realistic. So why would prestige only be any better than varied effects that can actually be interesting, or at the very least difficult, to compare to each other?
 
  • 10
  • 1
Reactions:

Oglesby

General
57 Badges
Jun 18, 2015
2.183
4.318
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Europa Universalis IV: Golden Century
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris: Federations
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
If you want to model the US government being more accessible to the public, then in game mechanics terms that would mean making the US less able to control which interest group is in power, not more. And one of the bonuses the devs have given the White House already does that. By giving POPs more political strength through votes, it represents the government being more open and accessible, and thereby more susceptible to public opinion, well for whoever controls DC and funds the monument. It also means the US is going to be a little more geared toward controlling its interest groups through controlling who gets the vote rather than directly promoting or suppressing interest groups, which is pretty well in line with how the US's behavior was historically and should realistically be in the game.
But that sounds like it should be connected to the US or the form of governance and not a monument.

It also feel like it will bring up gamey situations such as disabling the "White House" for a couple of months to help pass a law and then reenabling it.
 
  • 6Like
Reactions:

InvisibleBison

Field Marshal
43 Badges
Oct 14, 2012
2.871
10.301
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • BATTLETECH
  • Surviving Mars
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Surviving Mars: Digital Deluxe Edition
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Shadowrun: Hong Kong
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Surviving Mars: First Colony Edition
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Europa Universalis 4: Emperor
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
So why, of all things, should monuments give prestige?
I wouldn't object to monuments providing no benefits at all, but a small amount of prestige seems at least somewhat justifiable. Monuments are (or at least, are supposed to be) internationally renowned constructions. Possessing such a structure would serve to increase the prestige of a nation at least to some degree.

Even a tiny amount of prestige can potentially give huge benefits,
Where are you getting this from? As far as I know, the exact quantity of benefits prestige provides has not yet been revealed.

and it's not even close to realistic.
The effects of prestige are fairly realistic. Whether monuments should augment those effects is often more questionable, I agree.
 
  • 5Like
  • 5
  • 2
Reactions:

Saurid

Sergeant
77 Badges
Sep 12, 2018
78
324
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Magicka 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Steel Division: Normandy 44
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • BATTLETECH
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Steel Division: Normand 44 - Second Wave
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Cities in Motion 2
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Hearts of Iron III
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Magicka
  • Majesty 2 Collection
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Victoria 2
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
I love the idea of monuments and most of what it entails, but I can totally understand the objections raised by people. The White House effect is historical usa-centric and in the context of the historical USA, it makes sense. But if you diverge from that preconception of the USA, the monument bonus suddenly starts to fall apart and doesn't make any sense anymore. The same happens, of course, when you conquer it with another nation.

Heavy use of conditions doesn't solve the problem, as well. If the bonuses are good enough, this'll lead to people simply playing the USA the way they have to, in order to get the buff, which is something that the developers want to avoid. While I would like to say that I personally have no problems with dormant modifiers, my human nature belies my obsession...probably most people's obsession, that if you see a modifier, you must have it! Otherwise, why is it there?

Still, the White House, or the Berlin Victory Column, or the Eiffel Tower, should give a very different bonus to its "home nation". Especially the Berlin Victory Column was a prestige monument that was supposed to boost nationalism and commemorate the victory in the second Schleswig War (and later commemorated the Austro-Prussian War of 1866 and Franco-Prussian War of 1870/1871). This monument was a monument of prestige and nationalism....for Prussia and the German Empire. For everyone else owning Berlin, it's just a nice tourist spot, I guess.
My opinion is, scrap monuments as tehy are now, have the decision to build monuments for every nation. Dont model them on the map. Give every nation the apility to raise different types of monuments, then give flavour to national ones which dont give special bonuses but the same.Lastly amke it so the bonuses recived are only Bonuses affecting pop happiness, Idiology and maybea flat amount of prestige for completing a monument (it is fairly exapnsive).

For example lets say you have won a war in Victoria 3, you then are able to build a monument for taht war, make it large or small your choice. This monument is then build in a city of your choosing. You get the evnts etc. Depending on your wargoal and how great your victory was, how much money you spend etc. You get an immidiate buff for lets say nationalism and militarism in your nation, which afterwards becomes a smaller buff which is applied continiously unless you lose a war againgst the same nation in the future. Additionally all nationalistic or militaristic pops get a good happiness buff immidiatly and then a much smaller one later on, maybe even just in teh state it was build.

Same could be done if you want to celebrate a huge discovery for example. You make a monument for science, or you want to make a monument for culture etc. Make soem checks and balances for it and the buffs to happiness and idiology should probably be capped at a national maximum so you cannot spam them and make everyone a militarist just because you build a lot of great Monuments. That way you can even build stuff like the Eifel tower, its just a French cultural monument and teh victory arch in germany would be a german war Monument againgst the Austrians or Danish with special events when building it if you defeated both of them rather close after one another.
 
  • 6
  • 1Like
  • 1
Reactions:

Brynjar

General
61 Badges
Feb 14, 2012
1.921
4.407
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Field Marshal
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Magicka 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Ship Simulator Extremes
  • Rome Gold
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Surviving Mars
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
Where are you getting this from? As far as I know, the exact quantity of benefits prestige provides has not yet been revealed.

We don't really need exact quantities to know that. We do know that prestige determines country rank, and we have a fairly good idea of what benefits country rank gives from the dev diary on ranks and prestige (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/developer-diary/victoria-3-dev-diary-18-rank-prestige.1493822/)
Prestige, as was mentioned above, plays a central role in all of this. Simply put, Prestige is what determines who gets to occupy what rank in the global pecking order.

So then, what benefits do Rank confer? Generally, the higher a country’s Rank, the more Influence capacity it generates (allowing for a greater freedom in conducting diplomacy and signing diplomatic pacts), the more Declared Interests it can support (more on that next week) and the more Maneuvers it has in Diplomatic Plays (more on that in a few weeks). Rank also plays a key role in many other systems such as Subjects, Infamy, Diplomatic Actions and more, some of which we’ll get into in the coming weeks (I know I keep saying that, but bear with me, we’ve only just started on Diplomacy!).

And this screenshot in the capacities dev diary, where country rank appears to be by far the largest contributor to the influence capacity, even for minor nations.
1645469117228.png


The effects of prestige are fairly realistic. Whether monuments should augment those effects is often more questionable, I agree.
Yes, the effects of prestige in itself are fine. The problems are that there are hard limits for when you gain/lose a large chunk of the benefits, and some of the memeworthy ways of obtaining those benefits (hello art production, and potentially some monuments). The monuments may have some problems, but none of them are solved by making all monuments give prestige only.
 
Last edited:
  • 3
  • 1
Reactions:

maxirage

Lt. General
31 Badges
Apr 5, 2012
1.626
1.949
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Victoria: Revolutions
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • 500k Club
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Prison Architect
  • Crusader Kings III
Real life monuments provide some international prestige when they are completed, but then mostly serve as an expensive tourist attraction afterwards (see Burj Khalifa in Dubai). So building a monument in-game should give you a flat sum of prestige at completion, followed by a permanent minor local bonus. Again using real life as an example, the Burj Khalifa is only profitable because it drives people to nearby businesses. An appropriate bonus would therefore be local immigrant attraction and/or a bonus to local industry/income to represent tourism.
 
  • 15
  • 4Like
  • 1
Reactions: