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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #33 - Decentralized Nations

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Hello folks, I'm Ofaloaf, one of the content designers on Victoria 3, and I'm here today to talk about decentralized nations. What are they? Why are they there?

To start with, let's talk about what came before - let's take a quick look at what Victoria (well, Victoria: Revolutions) and Victoria II did when it came to regions outside of traditional imperial homelands.

Africa in Victoria: Revolutions
image1.png

Above is Africa as it was represented in Victoria: Revolutions. Most of the continent is open territory for any Great Power to colonize. There's people living there, but they don't do anything. Outside of a few limited cases, like Sokoto, they're represented by… nothing. They do not do anything on their own, and when added to a colonizing power, they just immediately become pawns in the imperial game and don't really care for independence or their own homeland.

Africa in Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
image2.jpg

The same is broadly true in Victoria II. Regions historically colonized by imperial powers, such as most of Africa and parts of the Americas, are represented as unclaimed swathes of land just waiting for an empire to come by and colonize them. The people who live there do not care who marches in, and will just be members of one empire or another forevermore after they are colonized. It's… a model that could use some improvement. It didn't do justice to the people who historically lived there, and, frankly, it made colonial gameplay kind of boring.

Africa as it currently stands in Victoria 3
image3.jpg

In Victoria 3, decentralized nations exist to address both the issues of gameplay and better representation of indigenous peoples. No matter where an empire tries to colonize, someone already lives there. They're organized, although they don't have the same level of international recognition and administrative organization as, say, Congress of Vienna attendees.

No formal declaration of war needs to be made in order to make an incursion into the territories of decentralized nations and start colonizing, although the deeper you colonize into a decentralized nation's lands, the more likely it is a diplomatic play will kick off where the decentralized nation starts a real war of resistance against you. Even if a colony is successfully established, the people living there aren't just pawns - they'll remember that they weren't always colonized subjects, and just like any other part of an empire they'll agitate for independence if conditions are right.


Mapping these nations has been a challenge. We essentially started with the Victoria II map as a base to build off of, which meant we had a lot of work to do just gathering information for peoples across the globe. Records of who lived where, and how many people lived there, have been difficult to obtain for some regions. Gameplay considerations have also driven some design choices - let's look at North America for an example of that process.

Behold the snippet of a beautiful draft image used when presenting the original proposal.
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This is part of one drafted proposal for the implementation of decentralized nations in North America. There's already some compromises in this version - peoples have been consolidated into some larger polities, and some state borders have been followed largely because having just one or two provinces on the other side of a state line can create regions too small to provide anything or anybody - 400 pops living in State X aren't able to provide enough men to contribute a single battalion to a native uprising, among other things. This design isn’t just for the decentralized nations - it is something we also do elsewhere in the world when trying to balance historical accuracy with gameplay, although we of course try to avoid steering too far away from actual history.

North America after the revised proposal was implemented.
image5.jpg

Even with these considerations, we still ended up pursuing a modified version of that proposal that did more to preserve the borders of larger imperial borders - we didn't want too many avenues for the United States to colonize its way into historical Canadian territories, or for Mexico to colonize its way into Minnesota. I do miss the Council of Three Fires and hope I can get it back in, but that depends on getting a design hammered out that works with the considerations and limitations we just went over above.


Other regions have had design considerations made in their implementation, too.

(from Wikipedia)
image6.png


I'm gonna be real with you, there was no way we were going to accurately and sufficiently map out all the peoples of New Guinea. That's one region where I think we've probably done the most consolidation, but I think it was necessary in order to provide anything like the combined strength needed in order to give the indigenous peoples of New Guinea a decent punch in case of a native uprising.

West Africa in Victoria 3.
image7.jpg

West Africa had many design decisions made since it was first mapped out for V3; as mentioned above, the original map built off of was Victoria 2's, so the first thing done was just getting some entity everywhere on the map. This early draft has been revised and revised and revised again, and probably will still be subject to further revisions. Countries that were first marked as decentralized have been centralized, such as the Ashanti Empire, and tag additions and renamings are a thing that's happened already and will happen again, as we continue to invest time in research and listen to feedback from our fans.

Decentralized nations give life to regions that have been treated as blank slates up 'til now. Mapping them out, getting them right, and balancing the challenges of precision and gameplay are a constant struggle, one which we are constantly tackling and working through. The result of all this, though, is a world that feels much more alive, one that I hope you'll be happily exploring at Victoria 3's release.

I'm terrible at transitions so let me just say that next week is @neondt's dev diary, and we're going to ship some monumental information there! And by that I mean it's on canals and monuments.
 
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There absolutely will be gameplay involving decentralized nations. True, they won't be playable at release, but they will exist and playable nations will be able to interact with them. The details of what sort of interactions are possible and how they are different from interacting with centralized nations was something many people, myself included, were hoping to see in this dev diary.
Ok, I may have been a bit too dismissive with my response, I admittedly got kinda dissapointed with the briefness of this diary myself.
 
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Kudos for such an innovatitive idea.

Perhaps my Emprie will never consider indegenius folks as a nation, but my dear-super-friendly-neighbors has a 'different' thought....
 
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wilcoxchar

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Aww, I liked the previous version of North America better.
Same, but it's understandable. I get why they don't want stuff like Mexico to be able to colonize all the way up to Manitoba or a country being misrepresented as not being able to field a single battalion for a native uprising though so need to take steps to ensure that doesn't happen and represent native turmoil through other game mechanics.
 
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Cruxador

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Very happy to see this! Finding historical info on indigenous people is often incredibly difficult to impossible, but I'm glad Paradox seems to be making a real effort this time.

Especially happy to see that Oyo is no longer decentralized (as it was in an earlier screenshot) since not only is that more accurate, but it's one of the nations I was most looking forward to playing. I know the internal policies and government structure are unlikely to get special attention despite how interesting they are, since it's such a small nation, but it'll still be fun to roleplay it.
 
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Is it right to assume all decentralized countries are one color, as seen above? So if a country changes color during the game, it has centralized? Cause I suspect that is possible in rare cases? And what happens if an uprising is successful so that a colony once a decentralized country becomes independent? Does it become an unrecognized (but centralized) country?
Presumably centralizing nations fill in with their border color
 
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Since even this is implemented in Vic 3, hope that they will add into European nations a better historical and political input of the Habsburg monarchy which had subcountries or subnations such as Croatia, Czechia (Bohemia), Hungary, Galizia who had their own governments, representativs, parliaments and some such as Hungary and Croatia even recognised status
 
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Do decentralized nations get flags? Historical or generated?
 
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" we didn't want too many avenues for the United States to colonize its way into historical Canadian territories, or for Mexico to colonize its way into Minnesota. "

Why not ? If it would have been historically possible I think the game should allow this to happen. It is what makes the beauty of Paradox grand strategy games, to create alternative history :)
 
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" we didn't want too many avenues for the United States to colonize its way into historical Canadian territories, or for Mexico to colonize its way into Minnesota. "

Why not ? If it would have been historically possible I think the game should allow this to happen. It is what makes the beauty of Paradox grand strategy games, to create alternative history :)
Except it was not historically possible or better... plausible. It would mess up more than what would be realistic
 
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" we didn't want too many avenues for the United States to colonize its way into historical Canadian territories, or for Mexico to colonize its way into Minnesota. "

Why not ? If it would have been historically possible I think the game should allow this to happen. It is what makes the beauty of Paradox grand strategy games, to create alternative history :)
While I agree with the sentiment you're expressing here, I believe that most of the borders in North America had already been established by 1836, by treaty if not by actual occupation. Thus, colonizing the wrong places should probably require a diplomatic play of some sort, but since the game doesn't seem to have a way for recognized nations to assert claims over decentralized nations the current situation is an acceptable alternative.
 
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Are the rumors true that a centralized country can turn into decentralized one in certain situations?

Would the Ottomans (as the Dead Man of Europe when that fires) be one as suspected?
I think you're getting confused there, the Ottomans won't become decentralized, they'll become unrecognized. Two seperate systems.
 
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While I agree with the sentiment you're expressing here, I believe that most of the borders in North America had already been established by 1836, by treaty if not by actual occupation. Thus, colonizing the wrong places should probably require a diplomatic play of some sort, but since the game doesn't seem to have a way for recognized nations to assert claims over decentralized nations the current situation is an acceptable alternative.
yes, while the U.S. didn't have authority for example over the Dakotas, both the US and UK acknowledged that it was under US sovereignty

so hopefully there is some reasonable colonization
 
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Looking good. I'd like to see more about how the player interacts with decentralized nations though. I'm not even saying I want a lot of interactions, but it would nice to be know the scope of it all.
 
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I love the new term "Decentralized" instead of "Primitive". However, I wonder if you used the map from Europa Universalis IV. If you didn't, why not? I think it would have been better than the old one from Victoria 2...
 

wilcoxchar

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" we didn't want too many avenues for the United States to colonize its way into historical Canadian territories, or for Mexico to colonize its way into Minnesota. "

Why not ? If it would have been historically possible I think the game should allow this to happen. It is what makes the beauty of Paradox grand strategy games, to create alternative history :)
That's something for a mod, not for the vanilla game. Would be a very cool mod though.
 
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youstas

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I like this new system. Just image a potential for 18th century mod with native nations in North America and another parts of the world.
 
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Bearjuden

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Lots of questions about decentralized nations becoming centralized I see, but I'm curious about the reverse: can a centralized nation become decentralized? How would you go about doing that, if so?

Prior to being colonized, can decentralized nations still participate like any other nation? For example, can an imperial power put parts of Africa into their market without actually taking direct control of the area and how does this impact the decentralized nation if so, does that accelerate centralization?
 
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Word_Smith

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I love the new term "Decentralized" instead of "Primitive".
I mean, they were called primitives in Vicky 2 because that's how they were viewed by Imperial nations at the time. The whole gameworld was deliberately shown through that lens; you had to read between the lines to understand the underlying message.
 
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