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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #3 - Buildings

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Hello again everyone! It’s Thursday again, and that means that it’s time to talk about Buildings. Buildings are a core mechanic of Victoria 3, as it is where the Pops work to produce resources such as Goods. Buildings represent a wide range of industries, businesses and government functions, from humble subsistence farms to complex motor industries and sprawling financial districts. In this dev diary, we’re going to broadly cover the main types of buildings and their function in Victoria 3.

To talk about buildings though, I first have to mention states! States are a concept that should be generally familiar to anyone who’s played some of our other games such as Victoria II or Hearts of Iron IV - a geographic unit of varying size in which much of Victoria 3’s gameplay takes place. States are where Pops live and (more importantly for our subject matter) where Buildings are located and built.

The State of Götaland in Sweden
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We will return to states more in later dev diaries, but for now let’s keep talking about Buildings!

Before we start on Buildings, something that’s important to note is that Buildings are just places where Pops can work and generally do not represent a single building - a single level of Government Administration, for example, represents the necessary buildings and infrastructure to support a certain number of Bureaucrats. Buildings always need qualified pops to work in them to yield any benefit, and an empty building is just that - empty and completely useless. This holds true even for buildings like Railroads and Ports that did not need Pops to work in them in Victoria 2.

Most buildings are directly constructed, but some (like the Subsistence Buildings below) will appear automatically based on certain conditions. When Buildings are constructed, the construction uses Pop labor and goods, and the costs involved will be subject to market forces.

But onto the different building types! First out, we have Subsistence Buildings. These are a special type of highly inefficient Buildings that cannot manually be built or destroyed, but rather will appear anywhere in the world where there is Arable Land that isn’t being used for another type of building. The vast majority of the world’s population starts the game ‘working’ in subsistence buildings as Peasants, and much of the game’s industrialization process is about finding more productive employment for your Peasants.


Peasants eke out a meager living in these Subsistence Farms, contributing little to GDP and taxes per capita
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Another special type of building is Urban Centers. Like Subsistence Buildings, these are automatically created rather than built, with the level of Urban Center in a State being tied to the amount of Urbanization generated by its other buildings. Urban Centers primarily employ Shopkeepers and provide a number of important local functions that we will get into at a later point.


The Urban Center is where you’ll find most of your middle-class Shopkeepers
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Next up we have Government Buildings. These are buildings that are fully funded by the state (ie, you!) and provide crucial civil services required for the smooth running of a Victorian nation. Examples include Government Administrations where Bureaucrats produce Bureaucracy for the administration of incorporated states and funding of Institutions, and Universities where Academics produce Innovation for technological progression.


Bureaucrats work in Government Administrations to provide Bureaucracy - the lifeblood of the government
dd3_4.png

The counterpart to Government Buildings is Private Industries. The vast majority of Buildings in Victoria 3 fall under this category, which includes a broad range of industries such as (non-subsistence!) farms, plantations, mines and factories. Unlike Government Buildings, Private Industries are not owned by the state but rather by Pops such as Capitalists and Aristocrats, who reap the profits they bring in and pay wages to the other Pops working there (usually at least - under certain economic systems the ownership of buildings may be radically different!).

Many of these buildings are limited by locally available resources such as Arable Land for agriculture and simply how much iron is available in the state for Iron Mines. Urban Buildings such as Factories however, are only limited by how many people you can cram into the state, simulating the more densely populated nature of cities. In short, there is no system of building ‘slots’ or anything like that, as we want limitations on buildings to function in a sensible and realistic way.


Several different types of Private Industries are shown below
dd3_5.png

Finally there are Development Buildings. These are often (but not always!) government buildings that distinguish themselves by providing vital state-level functions. A couple examples are Barracks that recruit and train soldiers from the local population and Railways that provide the Infrastructure other buildings need to bring their goods to the Market.


From left to right: Barracks, Port, Naval Bases and Railway
dd3_6.png

To finish up this dev diary I just want to mention that building up your country is meant to be more of a hands-on experience in Victoria 3, as this is absolutely core to the society-building aspect of the game and forms a major part of the game’s core loop. This naturally also means that we need to give the player the necessary tools to manage their buildings in a large empire, which may involve some form of autonomous building construction, though we haven’t yet nailed down exactly what form that would take (and whether it will involve decision making on the part of the investor class). Ultimately though, we want the player, not the AI to be the one primarily in charge of the development of their own country.

Well, there you have it. There is of course a lot in here (such as Production Methods) that will receive further explanation in the many more dev diaries we have planned, so be sure to tune in next week as I talk about Goods. See you then!
 
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I don’t think the Vicky 2 implementation of “Free Market” worked at all. It always felt like a joke option to me, as if Cities: Skylines: Libertarian Steading disabled all the buttons in the game. Besides, which country’s capitalists were ever such principled classical Liberals that they rejected all government assistance for themselves?

It’s still very common for the government in actually-existing free-market systems to decide it wants a widget factory built somewhere, and provide the cash or credit to get it done. Or, if hard-core anarcho-capitalists have such a monopoly on power that they really do forbid the elected government from any meaningful intervention in the economy, aren’t they the ones who are really making all the decisions relevant to the game? Shouldn’t your form of government switch to let you play as the Robber Barons who really run the country?

I won’t know exactly what I want until I play the game. I definitely want to be able to say, “I want to put a land-grant college in Ames, Iowa,” “I want to grow corn there, and potatoes in Idaho,” and “I want to put my farmers to work in textile factories, then to steel mills that I’ll build in Pennsylvania as soon as I can, then to other things like ships and machine tools that use the steel.”

I also want to be able to say, “I’m going to release this colony later, or I don’t have any detailed plans for it. Just automate these states.”

One thing I greatly enjoyed in my Vicky 2 games was seeing, “Oh, that’s interesting. Some ‘Afro-American’ artisans, as this game calls them, just promoted to capitalists and are trying to build a glass factory in New Orleans. I wasn’t expecting that. I wonder how that will turn out.” I hope Vicky 3 will still surprise me that way.

I actually love the idea of whatever kind of Geist you play, putting together a ruling coalition from the interest groups that have power, and being able to do only the things that coalition agrees on, with some changes requiring more support and others less. I hope the allocation of the Investment Pool will operate on the same principle.
 
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Honestly, while AI is of course a challenge the main reason for this is that which buildings are built in your country is so fundamental to the both the economic gameplay and society building aspect of Victoria 3 that we don't think it makes sense to not let the player interact with it. We don't want the game to play itself, so to speak.
Personally, I strongly disagree with that.

Why then you don't allow the player to e.g. explicitly direct the Pops the way the player wants? After all, Pops being independent actors who promote/migrate/etc outside of the player's direct control is also "the game playing itself".

But this is the beauty of Victoria: the simulation, which makes this game great (and it's one of the design goals you've personally stated). I think that it should fully apply to the building construction as well.

In my opinion, it would be much better and more in line with the core ideas of Vicky, if the player controlled the buildings only indirectly, on a strategic level. While the AI investors (in the laissez-faire case) or the AI planning committee (in the planned economy case) would take care of the individual buildings. The player could then affect this with stuff like tax cuts to encourage certain industries (in the laissez-faire case), or with giving broad goals for the planning committee (in the planned economy case). This would also solve the problem of managing large countries.

And I don't think that it would cause a problem that the player wouldn't have enough stuff to do in the game in that case. Even judging from the already revealed information, there are heaps of stuff to do for the player besides placing individual buildings.

And speaking of the AI, like I said in my previous comment, 1) in all other countries the AI will have to do it anyway, so it better be not that terrible and 2) the AI being somewhat terrible (though not to the Vic2 extent) is perfectly realistic, as in the real world investors and planning committees often make dumb decisions.
 
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You can find it in the POP dev diary (dev responses in the thread). It's 100% confirmed.
I found the quote:
tl;dr: Remember that we represent every individual workplace in each state as well, so we actually have substantially more granularity to Pop "location" than in previous titles.



We do actually! With respect to the USA, each current US state corresponds exactly to one named state region in the game (although in some cases state regions can split into multiple states owned by different countries.) Pops can move freely within workplaces in their state, while they need to undergo migration in order to move between states.

With respect to granularity though, there's really no downside to having Pops be able to move freely within their state rather than having to migrate between a handful of provinces within the same state as in previous titles. We still represent the urban/rural divide by permitting many, many different types of industry in each state, including both manufacturing and resource industries (as opposed to one static "RGO" per province) and service/governmental/infrastructure/military workplaces. These different industries and workplaces are visually grouped on the map such that you can see the urbanization and growth of some parts of your state compared to others.
And they do address the concerns about the lack of granularity, but I'm not certain I'm convinced; I'll have to wait and see more information, maybe even see it in practice.
 
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While I think this is a reasonable way to represent subsistence farming early game, is there any way to improve the effectiveness of such buildings, or are they fated to forever be the Vic3 equivalent of clerks? I'm thinking mainly about how one might represent the traditionalist/conservative programs to modernize but maintain the peasant way of life in Eastern Europe and Asia.

Also, isn't this a bit odd? Industrializing is state driven, and that it's your job to develop states and get better jobs for people. We're all kind of like Stalin, crushing subsistence farmers to build an administrative building?

So that would be a no then? Because land enclosures and industrialized factory farms are pretty much the opposite of "modernizing but still maintaining the peasant way of life."

As a Distributist myself, I would certainly like to be able to model the Chestertonian ideal of a society where property ownership is strongly distributed, which is what I understand @LucasG21 to be talking about, but I'm not holding my breath. For now, the idea seems to following the 19th-Century Liberal idea that concentration of wealth is what drives efficiencies to grow the economy ("make the cake grow to then divide it"). Maybe players will be able to subvert some mechanics meant to be used by Socialists to try and implement something approaching the wide distribution of small properties, in particular "worker-owned factories" + "industrialised farming" could simulate the kind of coöperative which Distributists point to as a model (like Mondragón Corp in Spain).

For most of the game, however, I think that most of our job is supposed to dump the people out of subsistence farming into urban jobs and then in the mid-to-late game try to implement some State intervention (education, health, previdence) in order to restore some of the standard of living that the low-class pops used to have when they were subsistence farmers.


Paper is one the easiest goods to produce, so I doubt cornering the paper market would do any damage.

Tell that to the Brazilian editors which suffered a chain of bankruptcies when the price of paper in the international market suddenly spiked in the mid-1990s (Editora GSA, which produced the first Brazilian RPG and was otherwise fairly successful, went belly up in months).

One interesting thought I had with bureaucrats now consuming paper. Since the game runs up to the 1930s, it would be interesting to have a late game tech for very early computerization that would begin to reduce the amount of paper consumed per bureaucracy but make government administration start requiring maybe electric gear or telephones/radios.

I like this idea and may in fact end up stealing it.

I guess I wouldn't be opposed to this per se, but I should remind everyone that the first electronic computers were developed during the (Second World) War, so beyond the scope of the game. Of course, you can always say that this is something of a late-game tech-rush goal for the really advanced countries, or some sort of steampunk Analytic Engine easter egg, but in principle it's more appropriate for HoI than Victoria.


Yep, you don't play as the government, you play as the 'spirit of the country'. It's hardly the only example of the player being able to do something that would be outside the purview or against the interest of the government in one of our games. That said, we've not completely set our mind on the investment pool as it works now and are discussing other ways we could do it.

I think what many dislike about AI choosing the buildings is the randomness of it and lack of ability to control it. If buildings capitalists choose are selected deterministically according to clear rules (along the lines of maximizing ROI), the player can still interact with the game by altering the conditions that feed into it (such as subsidies, tax incentives for certain buildings/industries etc). Selection priorities can be displayed to the player, so that the player is aware what capitalists intend to build next and can get some idea of how hard (expensive) it would be to nudge them towards building something the player really wants.

Maybe @Wizzington could make sure there is some scripting hook which pulses monthly per-state, and then the community can mod an event on that hook which examines the investment pool money and picks an economic building at random to create (if that state belongs to a polity which has a "pure liberalism" law enacted, or on some other equivalent flag). This way we can have the hard-liner Liberals use that mod and explore if there is some way to create an acceptable algorithm for choosing which industries are created (I don't think there is, but I won't begrudge other people the chance to try it out).

I'm not terribly invested in laissez-faire, and in any case I think that few polities actually implemented it (granted, those polities are mostly the US and the UK, which are the 8,000-pound gorillas of the 19th and the 20th Centuries), so I think that the investment pool is an acceptable abstraction, but I understand how much of a deal breaker it is for the people who are invested in that economic school and would like to accomodate them as much as possible.


Sorry. I should have been clear in my question. Do subsistence farms produce a trade good, or do they generate cash directly without selling anything on the market?

My understanding is that they will produce "groceries," which is a product type we have seen in other previews and a kind of food product.
 
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@Wizzington Put me down as a potential buyer who feels very strongly that AI investor decisions should drive which private buildings are constructed (in market economies).

I have three main reasons for why I feel that way:

Immersion- Capitalist societies should involve capitalism. I think the 19th century is a fascinating time period and I would love to steer a country through that period in a game, but NOT if I have to simulate a country that's economy is run by a central god-bureaucrat (me). That fundamentally opposes the type of country I would like to be simulating. I studied economics. I wouldn't have fun playing an economy-based game that forces me to violate my ideas about how my ideal country would run.

Variety- Despite what I said above, I could have fun playing a game that let me choose to play as a centrally planned economy. From a gameplay perspective, playing as different types of countries should be noticeably different. Having AI capitalists direct investment would be a great may to ensure that there is variety. It should not simply be that the player builds "private" buildings in planned economies and does not in market economies. Players playing in market economies should have a variety of options for steering investment into certain industries or areas (subsidies, taxes, investment in R&D, event decisions, etc...).

Micro- Some people like a lot of Micro, most don't. Having to manually build every private building sounds like hell to me.


The counterarguments I have seen often mention that the AI will never be able to invest as well as the player. This is a legitimate concern. How could we prevent this from becoming a problem?

First, lets examine why market economies are more efficient and productive than planned economies in the real world. I propose 2 main reasons:
1. Economic information is dispersed. (Friedrich Hayek explains this much better than I do) No central authority can know:
-What each individual wants and values.
-What is consumed by producing each good.
-The most efficient process for producing each good.
-etc...
In market economies, individuals making choices based on maximizing their own utility results in market prices that reflect the above information. In planned economies, decisions are often made based on estimates for the above information. Those estimates are often wildly inaccurate. Can game mechanics model this advantage of market economies over planned economies? My answer is: Probably not. I can think of ways to do it by obscuring certain information from the player, but I think it would be more frustrating than fun. So, that brings us to our second major advantage of market economies over planned ones...

2. Incentives. In markets economies, most workers and firms have substantially greater incentives to be productive. This leads to added productivity as a result of increased effort in routine tasks or increased motivation to create a more efficient process. Could this be modeled by game mechanics? Absolutely!!! I'm sure the devs could come up with many ways to do this- but I'll give a couple examples: 1. "Private Buildings" that really were created from private investment (as opposed to state-owned "private buildings") could have a productivity boost (e.g. +20%) to simulate extra effort. 2. Each "Private Building" that really was created from private investment could add to innovation/technological progress for that industry. This would simulate the private buildings actually having an incentive to make their production more efficient. These boosts could make up for the fact that that the AI is unlikely to make decisions as capably as the player.


I have not played Vic 2 and although I am very excited about the potential for Vic 3, It will take a lot more info before I decide whether or not I want to buy Vic 3. I can't really imagine wanting to play it if all economies are planned and I am forced to micromanage every single private industry.
 
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"To finish up this dev diary I just want to mention that building up your country is meant to be more of a hands-on experience in Victoria 3"

Great dev diary but that last line was awesome!!!!
 
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Good to hear that buildings will just be a "place of employment" for pops (who will presumably be the real driving force behind the progress of your country).
I really like the idea of buildings showing up on the map so that we can visually see the changes brought by the Industrial Revolution.
One thing that I missed in VIctoria 2 was the possibility of flattening the materials consumption for new infrastructure : instead of buying your steel, cement... all at once, spread it over the construction of the railroad, port... so that factories can have a sustained demand for their production.
There is also the question of how buildings get destroyed. Can they downgrade like a factory if they do not receive enough maintenance?
 
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As a Distributist myself, I would certainly like to be able to model the Chestertonian ideal of a society where property ownership is strongly distributed, which is what I understand @LucasG21 to be talking about, but I'm not holding my breath. For now, the idea seems to following the 19th-Century Liberal idea that concentration of wealth is what drives efficiencies to grow the economy ("make the cake grow to then divide it"). Maybe players will be able to subvert some mechanics meant to be used by Socialists to try and implement something approaching the wide distribution of small properties, in particular "worker-owned factories" + "industrialised farming" could simulate the kind of coöperative which Distributists point to as a model (like Mondragón Corp in Spain).

For most of the game, however, I think that most of our job is supposed to dump the people out of subsistence farming into urban jobs and then in the mid-to-late game try to implement some State intervention (education, health, previdence) in order to restore some of the standard of living that the low-class pops used to have when they were subsistence farmers.
I wouldn't through the towel so early, the "traditionalism" economic sistem does exist, with guild held factories and the like, while I imgaine this sistem is not really competitive at start, I do not put it beyond the devs, that some of techs give buffs to this system late in game to represent the later developments of certain strains of corporativism and distributivism
 
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Which brings us to the crux really, player micro is always going to be the best.

So that's why the Soviet Union's economy collapsed. The player at the helm from the late 60s onward was really terrible!


But real talk, any economic simulator worth its salt should make it so that, while in theory the the optimum means of play would be micromanagement heavy, in practice the system should be too complex for such a play style to be practical.

The main gameplay areas for most people should be the political and geopolitical spheres. Economics is hard and should be represented in game as such.
 
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Erilaz

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“Modernizing but still maintaining the peasant way of life” seems like a contradiction in terms. What I’d be interested in is if land ownership is modeled, ie you can have peasants modernize their productive techniques while still maintaining their communal ownership of the land.
In general, I'm really hoping we see different types of tenure modelled somehow. E.g. is the (subsistence) farm owner-occupied or is it owned by an aristocrat? Different forms of tenure will have different effects, and different POPs will get the rents/profits and have vested interests.

This should be extended to "urban centres" as well, with shopkeepers paying rent to landlords, etc.

A way to model landlord-tenant relations in general seems to me vital, if not a whole subsystem modelling (economic) rent. A game trying to model economics on such a grand scale simply can't ignore the economic role of land and property.

POPs would have to be subdivided into renters and owners, with parts of renters' wages/income going to landlords, with this rent as well as owners' imputed rent being taxable through property taxes (or land value taxes).

Same goes for buildings; it should be possible to distinguish the ownership of the building itself and the land it's built upon - the owner of one should not necessarily be the owner of the other, and this would again decide where profits would go: into the capitalist's or the landlords' pockets? Or perhaps the land is state owned while the building is owned by a capitalist, etc. etc.
 
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Fallofthepurple

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So that's why the Soviet Union's economy collapsed. The player at the helm from the late 60s onward was really terrible!
Im not even gonna engage with this nonsense
But real talk, any economic simulator worth its salt should make it so that, while in theory the the optimum means of play would be micromanagement heavy, in practice the system should be too complex for such a play style to be practical.

The main gameplay areas for most people should be the political and geopolitical spheres. Economics is hard and should be represented in game as such.
Hard pill to swallow: this game wont be a perfect simulation of economics, far from it because its a game. Its super heavily abstracted from real life and if you cant see how the player will always have an advantage by microing their way through vs an AI thats on your expectations.
In a world where I can pause the flow of time and have perfect access to any and all information to make the best decision at a given time in regards to cause and effect microing will always be the way to go if you really, really wanted to try that hard.
 
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wilcoxchar

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I guess I wouldn't be opposed to this per se, but I should remind everyone that the first electronic computers were developed during the (Second World) War, so beyond the scope of the game. Of course, you can always say that this is something of a late-game tech-rush goal for the really advanced countries, or some sort of steampunk Analytic Engine easter egg, but in principle it's more appropriate for HoI than Victoria.
I of course was not talking about electronic computers. But rather the early analog, primarily data tabulation machines that CTR, IBM, and others developed in the late 19th century and first decades of the 20th century, which is well within the timeframe. Hence why I said computerization and not digitization.
 
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Werther

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One game I love when I discover a DD with 15 pages after only 10 hours is to guess what elements made debate. Sometimes it's pretty clear from the DD itself and sometimes you have to wait for page 3 to discover what is gonna be the topic. This time, it was not until page 5 or 6 that the topic of laissez faire won. Guano debate and UI controversies were sadly not as fierce as I thought. Note to people who want to play this game : don't look at thread titles before the DD, because there are always a guy spoiling the result with a topic like "Please Dev, reconsider AI autobuilding" which will become a fighting ring for dozens of forumers for a week.

Joking aside, it's always a pleasure to read all of you!
 
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bcw2311

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A building & goods combination I’d love to see are cemeteries / crematoriums & the dead.

Why relevant to Vicky 3? In this period the rapidly growing cities of the world (e.g. London) were running out of room to bury their dead. As a result sites were sought out of those cities, e.g. Brookwood Cemetery, which was conceived by the London Necropolis Company in 1849 and resulted in the London Necropolis Railway being opened in 1854 (this book would probably also be informative). Then in 1878, Woking Crematorium became the first to be built in the UK.

How does this work in game? As the large industrial metropolises grow, they start to create the dead as a "good”. I say “good” because, rather than generating cash for the country, the dead need to taken to their final resting place for health and sanitation purposes, by building facilities and a railway to transport the dead out of the big city.

I may be making a bit of a leap here in terms of what mechanics will be in the base game in terms of health / disease, and this might be more suited to a DLC (CK2 Vicky 3 : The Reaper’s Due?). I’m also conscious that I might be jumping to conclusions around the function of the cities on the maps (noting discussion of what a “state” is in this DD). However disease and sanitation were significant concerns for the growing cities of this timeline, and the need to build cemeteries and / or crematoriums (which would first need to be legalised) could be a means of simulating this and health implications for cities if the dead are not accommodated for.

And as they would want to ensure that the Necropolis Railway can be created in game, the Devs then have every reason to include my hometown on the map ;)
 
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Prince Ire

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Yep, you don't play as the government, you play as the 'spirit of the country'. It's hardly the only example of the player being able to do something that would be outside the purview or against the interest of the government in one of our games. That said, we've not completely set our mind on the investment pool as it works now and are discussing other ways we could do it.
So if the 'Spirit of the Country' can tell capitalists what factories to build, why can't the 'Spirit of the Country' tell POPs what Interest Groups to support and what values to hold?
 
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Hertzila

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Honestly, I'd rather have the player as part of the building construction logic even as just the final sanity check on the capitalists and not need it with good automization, than need it due to bad AI and not have it. And let's face it, sorry Wiz, but PDX does not have a stellar record of its AI operating intelligently for micromanagement automization. Some systems work decently, like HOI4 planners, but others like Stellaris sector AI or Vicky 2 capitalist AI are sometimes worse than worthless, being actively detrimental to both me as a player and themselves as a game unit.

It's one thing for that to be a challenge, using the tools you have to keep the country afloat while the capitalists try and recreate the Great Depression. But Vicky 2 laissez-faire does not give you the tools, it locks you in a transparent box like you're in an insane trolley problem experiment, looking on as your nation goes belly-up and your only button is "Embrace Authoritarianism". If the challenge is to curb liberalism as much as you can and embrace communism as a way of life, to ensure you never get one, or even two if you're unlucky, economic systems in the game, it's a bad system. People speculated that liberal states will be unplayable due to lacking Authority when capacities came out, but locking manual checks on construction from liberals will ensure it.

Besides, no state in history has had a full laissez-faire economy without any government oversight, be it through zoning, regulations of various kinds, incentives, tax breaks, etc... And that's just the official ones. Could these things have a more accurate simulation for each mechanic instead of being pooled together into the Investment Pool as how the player manipulates things? Yes and I hope the Investment Pool does have some restrictions too so it's not just pure player fiat. But I'd first want a system that works at the base of it, not a system that works every now and then, if it feels like it, has comfy blue socks and it happens to be Thursday at UTC +10.

I hope we will have automation. In fact we must, since the AI has to play as well, so we might as well have an "automate my decisions" button on the Investment Pool. But I'd rather have manual override / sanity checks on it and not need them, than need them and not have them.
 
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