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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #22 - The Concept of War

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Hello and welcome to another Victoria 3 development diary! Today’s dev diary has been a hotly anticipated one, as we’re finally ready to start talking about war and combat and how they will work in Victoria 3.

So then, how does war and combat work? The answer is that we’ve taken a pretty different approach to warfare and combat in Victoria 3 compared to other Paradox Grand Strategy Games, and in this dev diary I’ll be going over the overall vision that governs our design for warfare, with the actual nitty-gritty on the mechanics coming over the next few weeks. Just as Victoria 3 itself has a set of design pillars that all game mechanics follow (as outlined in the very first diary), Warfare in Victoria 3 has its own design pillars, which we will now explain in turn.

The first pillar is one that is shared with the vision of the game as a whole: War is a Continuation of Diplomacy - anything you can gain through war should also be possible to gain through diplomacy. As we’ve already talked about this multiple times in the past, and last week’s dev diary told you all about Diplomatic Plays, we don’t feel the need to go into this again, but it’s still important to keep in mind to understand our approach to warfare.

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The second pillar, War is Strategic, is exactly what it sounds like. In Victoria 3, all decisions you make regarding warfare are on the strategic level, not the tactical. What this means is that you do not move units directly on the map, or make decisions about which exact units should be initiating battle where. Instead of being unit-in-province-based, warfare in Victoria 3 is focused on supplying and allocating troops to frontlines between you and your enemies. The decisions you make during war are about matters such as what front you send your generals to and what overall strategy they should be following there. If this sounds like a radical departure from the norm in Paradox GSGs, that’s because it is, and I’ll be talking more about the rationale at the end of this dev diary.

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The third pillar, War is Costly, is all about the cost of war - political, economic and humanitarian. There is no such thing as a bloodless war in Victoria 3, as just the act of mobilizing your army will immediately start accruing casualties from accident and disease (as these were and remain the biggest killers of men during war, not battles) in addition to being an immense financial burden for your country. The soldiers and conscripts who die during war leave behind children and widows, and may even become dependents themselves as a result of injuries sustained during your quest for national glory.

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The fourth pillar, Preparation is Key, ties heavily into the second and third pillars. Much of the strategic decision making in Victoria 3 that will let you win wars are all about how well prepared you are. For example: Have you promoted the most competent generals, or were you forced to promote an incompetent wastrel for political expedience? Have you invested in the best (but very costly) rifles for your soldiers, or are you forced to fight at a technological disadvantage? During the Diplomatic Play preceding the war, did you mobilize all your armies in time and eat the costs in men and materiel, or did you hold off hoping on a peaceful resolution, or at least for the conflict to end up as a limited war? Did you choose to build and subsidize an arms industry large enough to cover your wartime needs, or is your army reliant on import of weapons that may be vulnerable to enemy shipping disruptions? These are the sort of questions that can decide who has the true advantage when going into an armed conflict in Victoria 3.

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The fifth pillar, Navies Matter, is an ambition of ours that for many countries, navies should feel just as important (and in some cases more important) as armies. In addition to supporting or hindering overseas expeditions (by, for example, cutting off enemy supply lines), navies play a crucial role in waging economic warfare, as a country whose economy (or even worse, military goods supply) depends on trade will be vulnerable to the actions of hostile navies.

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The sixth and final pillar, War Changes, is all about the technological advances of the 19th century and the way that warfare changed from the maneuvering of post-napoleonic armies to the meat grinder that was World War One. Our ambition is for these changes to be felt in the gameplay of Victoria 3, as technologies such as the machine gun makes warfare an ever bloodier and costlier affair while advancements in naval technology makes it easier for countries with advanced navies to project global power.

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Before I end this dev diary, I want to talk briefly about our most radical departure from other Paradox GSGs - the absence of units you move on the map, and why we chose to go in this direction. The main reason is simply that Victoria 3 is a game primarily focused on Economy, Diplomacy and Politics and we felt a more strategic approach to warfare mechanics fits the game better than micro-intensive tactical maneuvering.

It’s important to note that how this works differs completely from having AI-controlled units in our other GSGs, since in Victoria 3 armies you assign armies to fronts rather than provinces (navies of course work differently, but more on that later). We’ll be getting into the exact details of the mechanics for both armies and navies in the coming weeks.

We of course still want Victoria 3 to have interesting and meaningful warfare mechanics, but we want the player to be engaging on a higher level of decision-making, making decisions about the overall war strategy and just how much they’re willing to sacrifice to achieve their goals rather than deciding which exact battalions should be battling it out in which exact province next.

This also ties into the general costliness of wars and the fact that you can achieve your ends through diplomacy - we want the ways in which an outmatched Victoria 3 player triumphs over their enemies to be clever diplomacy, well-planned logistics and rational strategic thinking rather than brilliant generalship. Ultimately, we’ve taken this approach to warfare for the same reason we take any game design decision: because we believe that it will make Victoria 3 a better game.

With that said, we’re done for today! We’ll of course be talking much more about warfare in the coming weeks, starting with next week’s dev diary on the topic of Fronts and Generals.
 
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So, I think that no matter how it works out in V3, Paradox being willing to experiment with new mechanics for its systems will do nothing but good for the future of paradox games
 
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While it makes sense, assuming that time will be ticking by day to day, as with Vic 2, instead of hoi4 being hourly, thus being unable to properly simulate the use of timepieces, which allowed for scheduled bombardments and attacks. I'm sure most people would desire a hoi4 combat system, seeing as it is the best available, however I can see that it would simply be too much to handle for the engine as it is for hoi4, lagging by 1943 in most cases. I just wonder how this will simulate mass invasions and battles, like that of Napoleon, or wars of movement like the early days of WWI, or the Franco Prussian war.

Would there be mechanics for the command structure, which allowed for the mass encirclements, and maneuvers that made the Prussians so effective, despite their lacking technology, in terms of firearms, when compared to the French?

Additionally, if we are unable to control the movement of troops, how would the Boxer Rebellion function, with the deployment of European troops into China, some of which had no overseas bases?

While mass mobilization will be simulated, what of standing professional armies, which, while smaller in size, were already factored into the budget, so to speak, and would be sufficient to bully smaller or less technologically advanced nations, without cause a great deal of public unrest?
 
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While this is too early to really air my opinion on these major changes to war, the concepts and ideas behind it sound well thought out and excellent to me! Looking forward to hearing more in-depth about it, hopefully with some images to help us visualise whats going on.

That being said, Victoria2 lacks a link between navies and population which I always found a shame considering the impact land war had on soldier pops. Will this be different in Vicktoria3, with navies requiring actual pops serving in its fleets which can be lost in combat?
 
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While it makes sense, assuming that time will be ticking by day to day, as with Vic 2, instead of hoi4 being hourly, thus being unable to properly simulate the use of timepieces, which allowed for scheduled bombardments and attacks.
4 ticks a day in Vicky 3.
Would there be mechanics for the command structure, which allowed for the mass encirclements, and maneuvers that made the Prussians so effective, despite their lacking technology, in terms of firearms, when compared to the French?
While I’m not going to deny that the Prussian command structure was superior to the French, it’s a little too simple to say the French had better firearms. The German artillery was far superior to the French, and that was arguably more important than the fact that the Needlegun was about a decade older than the Chassepot. Also, severe problems in France’s logistical system made it difficult to actually get the million or so Chassepot’s they did have into reservist’s hands.
Additionally, if we are unable to control the movement of troops, how would the Boxer Rebellion function, with the deployment of European troops into China, some of which had no overseas bases?
You still move troops, just between fronts not between tiles. As for the lack of overseas bases I assume diplomatic arrangements would handle those.

While mass mobilization will be simulated, what of standing professional armies, which, while smaller in size, were already factored into the budget, so to speak, and would be sufficient to bully smaller or less technologically advanced nations, without cause a great deal of public unrest?
I assume barracks produce standing units, and then you can draw on a much wider pool of manpower by mobilizing.
 
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That being said, Victoria2 lacks a link between navies and population which I always found a shame considering the impact land war had on soldier pops. Will this be different in Vicktoria3, with navies requiring actual pops serving in its fleets which can be lost in combat?
I think I read somewhere that navies will employ soldier pops (or I think they're called "servicemen" in this game).
 
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There is something incredibly slimy about this post. I don't know if it is specifying exactly how much money you made or whether it is the arrogance to think that the stock movement was because of the DD or whether you are right, but you are profiting from people being upset and bragging about it, but it is noteworthy in its grossness. Well done.
Profiting from people being upset can be a very logical and reasonable course of action. Imagine people upset about a company emiting toxic waste and court cases incoming- shorting such a corp may be a nice way to make money. But in this case it was, the most probably, a coincidence.

Don't worry. If he continues to believe that investors care about Vicky3 DD so much, then sooner or later he may lose his money.
 

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Well, Russia could transfer some goods from US to Germany via Siberia. And on top of that, Russia was a net agriculture exporter, and had huge untapped reserves of literally everything, so potentially it could feed and supply CPs indefinitely, so blockade would simply be a nuisance, like it sort of was, before Barbarossa for WW2 Germans, Japan and USSR acting as nice middleman.

Absolutely, but that's more of a WW2 than a WW1 thing. What I'm getting at are things like it being cheaper to transport goods from St Petersburg to Sevastopol by sea via London than overland from, due to limited infrastructure during the Crimean War. I'm not sure at what point the Russian internal rail and river transport system had grown to the point that it could cope with large volumes of export goods in a cost-effective fashion (or at all). The two snippets I have in my notes are below. From a quick Google (so could be rubbish) "By 1870 Britain had about 13,500 miles (21,700 km) of railroad. At the system’s greatest extent, in 1914, there were about 20,000 miles (32,000 km) of track, run by 120 competing companies." According to wiki (again, take with a grain of salt) US railroad track miles peaked at 254,251 in 1916.

Of course, a historical Russia can invest in much more track and be able to export all they like - hopefully (and I'd expect) infrastructure and railroads will have some impact on limiting the extent of overland trade - but so far we only really know (I think, I may have forgot things) about the impact of infrastructure within a market, rather than between them.


The rail network in Imperial Russia had less than 1,000 miles in 1860, 16,155 miles by 1885, 22,600 by 1895 and 40,550 in 1905 (of which 6400 miles were in Asia) (Conways All the World's Fighting Ships 1860-1905, p. 170)

In 1862, by far the cheapest way to send stores from St Petersburg to the Black Sea was by ship to London and then transship them to the Black Sea. (Conways 1860-1905, p. 170)
 
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Then why does it say "nov 3" on this dev diary?

It was pre posted but hidden and then released on the day. If you check the date of the first non-dev/community manager person it will be on Thursday.
 
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I guess my reply would be that the reality is that war is a punishment in its own right. To make war the easy strategic choice is to betray reality, and above all Vic 3 seems like a game where the reality of policy and strategic trade-offs is paramount. I want it to accurately reflect the significant destruction to infrastructure, buildings, people, culture, etc. If war is necessary or advantageous despite all of these drawbacks, then it will still happen.

No no, you significantly misunderstood my point. I like that V3 makes warfare into a continuation of diplomacy. I like their use of the old Crisis system. I like making war being increasingly devastating as technology advances. Yes, it SHOULD wreck your crap if you suck, but the problem is that this strategy, where all warfare is automated and you only pulling strings in hindsight forces you to suck if you don't play a major nation.

The fact that Uncivilized Nations in V2 were trapped behind insurmountable hurdles was the worst flaw of V2, now V3 comes and creates the same problem if you play as, say, a liberated Mongolia against the Russian Empire. It's the same song and dance as V2's greatest flaw, but this time, even less fun because you can't actually engage in strategic warfare in a STRATEGY GAME. There is no strategy to making broad strokes like "assign front to X province" after the fact if you are technologically superior. Your enemy cannot win.

My point is that it eliminates one of the defining components of Paradox strategy games and punishes the player for playing a way he seeks to do by 1) revoking any real control of units or means a player can use to make intelligent wins, which is the fun part of war in a strategy game, and 2) railroading a way to play the game.

It was like two steps forward and one step back: balancing Infamy was great and the Crisis system was even better, but making war so prohibitive that players are actively and constantly punished every time they try to play the way that the developers don't think their game should be played is railroading, which is the fundamental enemy of strategy gaming.

If I want to conquer Dixie as the Great Qing I should be able to do so and use strategy to do it; Paradox was right to make war actually devastating and I commend that. With this system in place, there appears to be no possible way that a player of a small nation can best a big one except through dirty tricks in diplomacy, and even then, that won't get Russian clay as the Qing Dynasty. With this new system, players can't use their wits and intelligence in warfare, meaning they must play the game "the right way". I will NEVER have ANY possibility of EVER attaining crazy goals and pipe dreams, like seeing Dixie aristocrats wearing Manchurian Cue hairstyles. Even if I fully become Recognized and actually have a decent amount oft echnology, I can't guide my navy to park in the Province that isn't what the broad strokes AI thinks it should be, meaning I'll get ROFL-stomped by the Mississippi National Guard in a battle I could have manually won with ease.

You can theoretically win as the Qing Dynasty against the British in V2. It's brutal, but possible. You can theoretically win as the Old South or even beat back Manifest Destiny as Mexico in V2, because it requires a LOT of manipulation of your own units by hand.

With all strategic components of moving units and designing battle plans totally taken from you, the Qing is pretty much never going to beat back the British, or the Russians, or whoever else no matter how skilled the player possibly is.

I was ecstatic to see that V3 was going to make diplomacy more important and make war actually devestating, but that evaporated when I saw that Paradox was going to actively punish skilled players by railroading them into losing a war against a superior foe by taking away the entire strategy of fighting a war and AUTOMATING IT.

I want diplomacy to always be an option, not forced to be the option. I should have a theoretical chance to defeat someone as Krakow IN A WAR if I play my cards right and get good alliances. If I secured an alliance with Prussia and attacked Russia, I would not be able to defend Krakow from being conquered, forcing me out of the war, because I can't make my units do anything to spawn choke points or meet up with Prussian forces. If I want clay, Russia won't give it to me in diplomacy unless I have France AND England AND Prussia as allies.

Where is the fun in that?! Some things can't be won with diplomacy because of the size of the enemy or tech advantages. I shouldn't have to muster the entire Entente to take one province just because I can't actually manipulate my units to actually punch above my weight.

In conclusion, the automating of war into broad strokes and the removal of units, coupled with the (rightly added) devestation of warfare and existing technology imbalances punish players skilled at prosecuting a hot war. It's worse than forced Lucky Nations in EU4. You should be able to become a dominant Great Power as any nation if you work hard enough. Removing the ability to control warfare SO THAT YOU CAN ACTUALLY WIN removes virtually any path that isn't "realistic".

That is railroading. Railroading is wrong.
 
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No no, you significantly misunderstood my point. I like that V3 makes warfare into a continuation of diplomacy. I like their use of the old Crisis system. I like making war being increasingly devastating as technology advances. Yes, it SHOULD wreck your crap if you suck, but the problem is that this strategy, where all warfare is automated and you only pulling strings in hindsight forces you to suck if you don't play a major nation.

The fact that Uncivilized Nations in V2 were trapped behind insurmountable hurdles was the worst flaw of V2, now V3 comes and creates the same problem if you play as, say, a liberated Mongolia against the Russian Empire. It's the same song and dance as V2's greatest flaw, but this time, even less fun because you can't actually engage in strategic warfare in a STRATEGY GAME. There is no strategy to making broad strokes like "assign front to X province" after the fact if you are technologically superior. Your enemy cannot win.

My point is that it eliminates one of the defining components of Paradox strategy games and punishes the player for playing a way he seeks to do by 1) revoking any real control of units or means a player can use to make intelligent wins, which is the fun part of war in a strategy game, and 2) railroading a way to play the game.

It was like two steps forward and one step back: balancing Infamy was great and the Crisis system was even better, but making war so prohibitive that players are actively and constantly punished every time they try to play the way that the developers don't think their game should be played is railroading, which is the fundamental enemy of strategy gaming.

If I want to conquer Dixie as the Great Qing I should be able to do so and use strategy to do it; Paradox was right to make war actually devastating and I commend that. With this system in place, there appears to be no possible way that a player of a small nation can best a big one except through dirty tricks in diplomacy, and even then, that won't get Russian clay as the Qing Dynasty. With this new system, players can't use their wits and intelligence in warfare, meaning they must play the game "the right way". I will NEVER have ANY possibility of EVER attaining crazy goals and pipe dreams, like seeing Dixie aristocrats wearing Manchurian Cue hairstyles. Even if I fully become Recognized and actually have a decent amount oft echnology, I can't guide my navy to park in the Province that isn't what the broad strokes AI thinks it should be, meaning I'll get ROFL-stomped by the Mississippi National Guard in a battle I could have manually won with ease.

You can theoretically win as the Qing Dynasty against the British in V2. It's brutal, but possible. You can theoretically win as the Old South or even beat back Manifest Destiny as Mexico in V2, because it requires a LOT of manipulation of your own units by hand.

With all strategic components of moving units and designing battle plans totally taken from you, the Qing is pretty much never going to beat back the British, or the Russians, or whoever else no matter how skilled the player possibly is.

I was ecstatic to see that V3 was going to make diplomacy more important and make war actually devestating, but that evaporated when I saw that Paradox was going to actively punish skilled players by railroading them into losing a war against a superior foe by taking away the entire strategy of fighting a war and AUTOMATING IT.

I want diplomacy to always be an option, not forced to be the option. I should have a theoretical chance to defeat someone as Krakow IN A WAR if I play my cards right and get good alliances. If I secured an alliance with Prussia and attacked Russia, I would not be able to defend Krakow from being conquered, forcing me out of the war, because I can't make my units do anything to spawn choke points or meet up with Prussian forces. If I want clay, Russia won't give it to me in diplomacy unless I have France AND England AND Prussia as allies.

Where is the fun in that?! Some things can't be won with diplomacy because of the size of the enemy or tech advantages. I shouldn't have to muster the entire Entente to take one province just because I can't actually manipulate my units to actually punch above my weight.

In conclusion, the automating of war into broad strokes and the removal of units, coupled with the (rightly added) devestation of warfare and existing technology imbalances punish players skilled at prosecuting a hot war. It's worse than forced Lucky Nations in EU4. You should be able to become a dominant Great Power as any nation if you work hard enough. Removing the ability to control warfare SO THAT YOU CAN ACTUALLY WIN removes virtually any path that isn't "realistic".

That is railroading. Railroading is wrong.
If Krakow can "win", I have spent money on a broken game.
 
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