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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #22 - The Concept of War

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Hello and welcome to another Victoria 3 development diary! Today’s dev diary has been a hotly anticipated one, as we’re finally ready to start talking about war and combat and how they will work in Victoria 3.

So then, how does war and combat work? The answer is that we’ve taken a pretty different approach to warfare and combat in Victoria 3 compared to other Paradox Grand Strategy Games, and in this dev diary I’ll be going over the overall vision that governs our design for warfare, with the actual nitty-gritty on the mechanics coming over the next few weeks. Just as Victoria 3 itself has a set of design pillars that all game mechanics follow (as outlined in the very first diary), Warfare in Victoria 3 has its own design pillars, which we will now explain in turn.

The first pillar is one that is shared with the vision of the game as a whole: War is a Continuation of Diplomacy - anything you can gain through war should also be possible to gain through diplomacy. As we’ve already talked about this multiple times in the past, and last week’s dev diary told you all about Diplomatic Plays, we don’t feel the need to go into this again, but it’s still important to keep in mind to understand our approach to warfare.

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The second pillar, War is Strategic, is exactly what it sounds like. In Victoria 3, all decisions you make regarding warfare are on the strategic level, not the tactical. What this means is that you do not move units directly on the map, or make decisions about which exact units should be initiating battle where. Instead of being unit-in-province-based, warfare in Victoria 3 is focused on supplying and allocating troops to frontlines between you and your enemies. The decisions you make during war are about matters such as what front you send your generals to and what overall strategy they should be following there. If this sounds like a radical departure from the norm in Paradox GSGs, that’s because it is, and I’ll be talking more about the rationale at the end of this dev diary.

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The third pillar, War is Costly, is all about the cost of war - political, economic and humanitarian. There is no such thing as a bloodless war in Victoria 3, as just the act of mobilizing your army will immediately start accruing casualties from accident and disease (as these were and remain the biggest killers of men during war, not battles) in addition to being an immense financial burden for your country. The soldiers and conscripts who die during war leave behind children and widows, and may even become dependents themselves as a result of injuries sustained during your quest for national glory.

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The fourth pillar, Preparation is Key, ties heavily into the second and third pillars. Much of the strategic decision making in Victoria 3 that will let you win wars are all about how well prepared you are. For example: Have you promoted the most competent generals, or were you forced to promote an incompetent wastrel for political expedience? Have you invested in the best (but very costly) rifles for your soldiers, or are you forced to fight at a technological disadvantage? During the Diplomatic Play preceding the war, did you mobilize all your armies in time and eat the costs in men and materiel, or did you hold off hoping on a peaceful resolution, or at least for the conflict to end up as a limited war? Did you choose to build and subsidize an arms industry large enough to cover your wartime needs, or is your army reliant on import of weapons that may be vulnerable to enemy shipping disruptions? These are the sort of questions that can decide who has the true advantage when going into an armed conflict in Victoria 3.

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The fifth pillar, Navies Matter, is an ambition of ours that for many countries, navies should feel just as important (and in some cases more important) as armies. In addition to supporting or hindering overseas expeditions (by, for example, cutting off enemy supply lines), navies play a crucial role in waging economic warfare, as a country whose economy (or even worse, military goods supply) depends on trade will be vulnerable to the actions of hostile navies.

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The sixth and final pillar, War Changes, is all about the technological advances of the 19th century and the way that warfare changed from the maneuvering of post-napoleonic armies to the meat grinder that was World War One. Our ambition is for these changes to be felt in the gameplay of Victoria 3, as technologies such as the machine gun makes warfare an ever bloodier and costlier affair while advancements in naval technology makes it easier for countries with advanced navies to project global power.

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Before I end this dev diary, I want to talk briefly about our most radical departure from other Paradox GSGs - the absence of units you move on the map, and why we chose to go in this direction. The main reason is simply that Victoria 3 is a game primarily focused on Economy, Diplomacy and Politics and we felt a more strategic approach to warfare mechanics fits the game better than micro-intensive tactical maneuvering.

It’s important to note that how this works differs completely from having AI-controlled units in our other GSGs, since in Victoria 3 armies you assign armies to fronts rather than provinces (navies of course work differently, but more on that later). We’ll be getting into the exact details of the mechanics for both armies and navies in the coming weeks.

We of course still want Victoria 3 to have interesting and meaningful warfare mechanics, but we want the player to be engaging on a higher level of decision-making, making decisions about the overall war strategy and just how much they’re willing to sacrifice to achieve their goals rather than deciding which exact battalions should be battling it out in which exact province next.

This also ties into the general costliness of wars and the fact that you can achieve your ends through diplomacy - we want the ways in which an outmatched Victoria 3 player triumphs over their enemies to be clever diplomacy, well-planned logistics and rational strategic thinking rather than brilliant generalship. Ultimately, we’ve taken this approach to warfare for the same reason we take any game design decision: because we believe that it will make Victoria 3 a better game.

With that said, we’re done for today! We’ll of course be talking much more about warfare in the coming weeks, starting with next week’s dev diary on the topic of Fronts and Generals.
 
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Bezborg

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Stellaris being foremost.

Just saying, given who was the Lead of that game upon Release, you still have undying faith in the Execution of this mechanic?

I like the concept, it sounds as if it could be pulled off quite well.

But then I read this comment, and am reminded of who led that team and I just go....yeah, I'm not confident.
Well, now that you reminded me… I’m now scared as well
 
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Most of the people disagreeing probably won't even play, or don't take the time to get good at the games.

Oh, is that so? As someone with 1000+ hours in V2, most of which was spent in MP with the horrible Hamachi crap, I'd consider myself a relatively decent V2 player - and I disagreed. What on earth makes you assume that people who are upset with this radial change don't take time to get good is beyond me. I'm not gonna go as far as to call it the dumbest take since Hitler invaded russia, but that's just because I'm feeling polite today.
 
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Really excited about this one, hope they impement it well - odds are against them but I hope they can pull it off and make history with setting a trend for strategy games to be truly strategic instead of strategy/tactics hybrids. Arguably wasn't the best approach to announce such a major design change without providing any specifics but that's just a PR blunder, doesn't matter in the grand scheme of things.
 
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Taking risks and trying new things is generally a good thing, otherwise this game would not even exist. I hear so many complaints about game design stagnating since the 90s, and yet they often seem to come from a thoroughly conservative playerbase.

Personally, warfare is the least compelling part of these games, so this move strikes me as little risk for potentially a lot of gain. Worst case scenario, a serviceable but mediocre system gets replaced by another serviceable but mediocre system.
 
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To be fair, I do hope it's not too hands off. Like, yes I want to focus more on the strategic and less on the operational level of warfare. Absolutely. But there is a real risk of them overdoing it and making wars feel too uninvolved, unengaging or not skill based. The detractors of this change aren't entirely wrong about that.

Going by what they mentioned in this DD I'm hopeful that won't happen, but it absolutely still could.

Actually, the bolded part is what I'm hoping for, that it won't be skill* based. Building an economy isn't skill based, creating a stable political system isn't either. They both require planning and long term strategy. If you are unprepared for a war, then "skill" shouldn't be able to turn the tide.

A point I really liked about Vic 1&2 was that your actions had ramifications down the line. If your economy wasn't stable, or you had unruly pops, etc then you couldn't really press a "stability" button and magically solve everything. However good micro skills could still solve your problems... That's a reason I'm looking forward to the new system, hoping war will be more in line with the rest of the game in this regard. Effectively, I hope that not preparing your supply lines up front, not having enough weapons, not having alliances, etc will make you lose, regardless of how good you could manoever.

*Under skill I'm assuming troop micro skills.
 
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Actually, the bolded part is what I'm hoping for, that it won't be skill* based. Building an economy isn't skill based, creating a stable political system isn't either. They both require planning and long term strategy. If you are unprepared for a war, then "skill" shouldn't be able to turn the tide.

A point I really liked about Vic 1&2 was that your actions had ramifications down the line. If your economy wasn't stable, or you had unruly pops, etc then you couldn't really press a "stability" button and magically solve everything. However good micro skills could still solve your problems... That's a reason I'm looking forward to the new system, hoping war will be more in line with the rest of the game in this regard. Effectively, I hope that not preparing your supply lines up front, not having enough weapons, not having alliances, etc will make you lose, regardless of how good you could manoever.

*Under skill I'm assuming troop micro skills.

Oh. I don't specifically mean micromanagement when I talk about skill. I mean skill in a very general sense. As in I want wars to be decided by who played better. So, like you said, planning and long term strategy. But I also absolutely still want a good deal of active player involvement in how the war is fought. If you win a war (or campaign or operation or battle or whatever) it should be clear to you how and why you won it and that it was your gameplay decisions that lead to that success. Or failure.

Like I said, I can somewhat understand people being concerned on that front as abstracted systems can easily be overdone and lead to something more like a slideshow than a game. Which I think noone wants. But I generally trust the devs enough that I expect they'll deliver good gameplay there.
 
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I did not want to write big posts, but I feel critics of the new Crackpot Idea changes are misunderstood as Idiots who do not want Progress of the brave developer Team.

I see now I must exactly and clearly state my motives and my understanding so:

For me as a critic of the decisions taken it was clear from the start the following about warfare:
The AI will not move single units on the map but will handle numbers of Manpower supplies and Battlefield Modifiers on both sides of a frontline between two enemies regardless if human or AI. Both enemies will have frotnline movement changes on the territory of the loosing party and changes to numbers of supply and Manpower according to what the Math of modifiers and raw Army numbers shows in every given moment. After some critical threshold there will probably be a rout unless forts stop advancement of the routing Army. This map of Modifiers might be shown on the frontline as battles in order for the player to better visualise it and try to react to it with some kind of resource transfer (either transfer of troops(meaning manpower and supplies), generals or some kind of military Policy) and that is where the player proficiency ends.

And I think that is bad for the following Reasons:
Since weak countries with busy allies do not have as much supplies and Manpower they will automatically loose. Under the two current best warfare systems HOI IV and EU IV there is countless possibilities of legitimate non exploiting manoeuvres, pinning faint retreating sieging or encirclement witch help underequipped Armies to win against all odds. And here I am not speaking of Order 66 in HOI IV or of Island trapping or Parachuting behind forts in EU IV. I am speaking of sweat inducing micro intensive work which can be hard but is very rewarding. If warfare is decided on fronts with numbers and no micro work the party with more supply will always win. That was not always so in History.

I do not deny that this mechanic can be interesting between powers with massive amount of resources but I argue how long will people want to play the limited amount of Majors and do the same resource warfare. The gameplay will shift to diplomacy which is fine but not enough in my opinion.

Oh, I understand. I think people can have their reservations about the new system and it's a worthwhile discussion (though we could wait until the system is actually explained to us).

The issue people have is that seemingly every couple of hours someone who didn't read/didn't understand the dev diary starts a new thread on the forum where they self-righteously explain to us that taking a system of warfare that is entirely designed around player micro and copying it into the game with all micro removed, is indeed a bad idea, think themselves a genius for figuring this out and proceed to insult anyone who would dare disagree.
 
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Ok.. No warfare, no political parties..Abstracting everything to get as many newbies as you can. What this is going to be ? Something like Animal Crossing?

The interest group is not an abstraction of political parties, if anything, it's the other way around.

But hey, civics class = all political knowledge that there is, am I right?
 
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The interest group is not an abstraction of political parties, if anything, it's the other way around.

But hey, civics class = all political knowledge that there is, am I right?

Interest groups made by entire social classes that elect directly government are a big abstraction. Plus now they will make combat abstract. This game will be so abstract that you will have to imagine it to play it.

Time ago Paradox made complex but interesting game that made you engaged. Now is just going toward a commercial game cutting so much thing. Game wasn't perfect, but now...
 
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Interest groups made by entire social classes that elect directly government are a big abstraction. Plus now they will make combat abstract. This game will be so abstract that you will have to imagine it to play it.

Time ago Paradox made complex but interesting game that made you engaged. Now is just going toward a commercial game cutting so much thing. Game wasn't perfect, but now...
Dude, we know literally nothing about the combat system. Give it 3 days and then prophesy about the death of strategy games.
 
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No armies on the map? No I am not sure about that at all. Strategic warfare on the map is one of the only things that I find fun in Paradox games, now you are removing that. Its laughable lol.
 
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No armies on the map? No I am not sure about that at all. When you have a winning formula why change it? Victoria 2 was pretty good, it just needed more to do and less waiting around. I mean if there are no units to move around what exactly is the player going to be doing during the gameplay? Victorian age was all about colony wars and forced colonisation, the growth of empires and new technology. A lot of it revolved around conflict.
It was all about that, as well as the growth of trade unions and strikes, universal suffrage, rising standards of living, transformation of monarchies into administrative states, overthrow of feudal relations - a lot more than just Maxim guns and Krupp works.
 
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Oh. I don't specifically mean micromanagement when I talk about skill. I mean skill in a very general sense. As in I want wars to be decided by who played better. So, like you said, planning and long term strategy. But I also absolutely still want a good deal of active player involvement in how the war is fought. If you win a war (or campaign or operation or battle or whatever) it should be clear to you how and why you won it and that it was your gameplay decisions that lead to that success. Or failure.

Like I said, I can somewhat understand people being concerned on that front as abstracted systems can easily be overdone and lead to something more like a slideshow than a game. Which I think noone wants. But I generally trust the devs enough that I expect they'll deliver good gameplay there.
I think a key element that warfare brought, and this move risks making less important, is split-second skill.

Seeing a developing situation and acting on it tends to be far more engaging than 'I have watched the best guide and am implementing the perfect build'. Most paradox games aren't really good at doing this in terms of diplomacy (though Vicky2 and now 3 certainly try the best), because infamy/badboy tend to be such obvous hard-limits that gaming those limits is the key element... but in warfare it has always been quite obvious. (of course in MP diplomacy has gotten to that level basically since voice chat became practical, and even before that it was pretty good but competed with the army micro - and in MP things sometimes develop so that specifically acting off-meta can be so succesful as to become the new meta.)

I hope the changes to diplomacy and economics allow this sense to be important in those fields, so warfare doesn't have to take most of the load - and so the scrapped micro of army tactics isn't missed.
 
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No armies on the map? No I am not sure about that at all. Strategic warfare on the map is one of the only things that I find fun in Paradox games, now you are removing that. Its laughable lol.
Well, perhaps you can play any other Paradox's game, then.

I never saw Victoria 2's EU style warfare that enjoyable myself, so I find this change in focus invigorating after endlessly making warfare more and more micro heavy.
 
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CharlieFox

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I hope that the new warfare system will work similar to the Hoi IV Battle planner but without units in the map and without the battle planner AI messing your plans. That is to say that I hope that we can still make strategic decisions (e.g hold the front here, push through state X to threaten the enemy supply lines and force it to retreat. If it just boils downs to assign each forces to each front (e.g western front and eastern front) and let algorithm handle the rest it will a huge disappointment...
 
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Ratgar

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I mean if there are no units to move around what exactly is the player going to be doing during the gameplay? Victorian age was all about colony wars and forced colonisation, the growth of empires and new technology. A lot of it revolved around conflict.

I think people are getting very hung up on the lack of units and not admitting the possibilities of fronts. Sure it's speculation, but the way fronts could work is possibly not much different from units. I'm assuming that they are somewhat autogenerated based on the geography of the combat, and then supplied with troops and resources at the discretion of the player. The player could then assign different fronts different directions, like maybe drawing arrows to direct pushes in different ways. Assign the Army of Tennessee to just hold territory, and the Army of the Potomac to sail down to central Virginia, and push inward that way. Again, its speculation, but there are many ways to imagine fronts still allow player control of combat movement, and which are more realistic than armies directing operations in this area unit by unit. Certainly there are engaging ways within a front based system in which a player in control of a nation could be feel they are really directing a war, yet not having to constantly hover over its combat, and especially be given a chance to concern themselves with elements like logistics and terrain which basically no Paradox game to date has given adequate treatment of, because they are usually not immediate enough to warrant as much attention to as microing.

And especially if you are looking for example at something like the American Civil War, anything other than fronts directed in this way just doesn't make much sense. Sure there were units, and sure they moved around, but for the purposes of movement on the map scale any wargame paradox has made they didn't operate as independently so much as as fronts. The splitting off of units under a single command to conduct flanking maneuvers or varied approaches would have happened at far far smaller scales, and by the time that it did happen at larger scales the units basically formed a unified front anyways. At no point from the Napoleonic era until after WW1 were generals regularly conducting operations over hundreds of miles coordinated between multiple units; even with the advent of the telegraph the only examples of long distance coordination between units were either between what could most accurately be described as fronts, or between units that were simply part of the same mass of forces. Countless examples from the era however involved the leadership of opposing sides pulling out maps, drawing large arrows, planning out offensives, and allocating resources to them in a manner that could adequately and engagingly be covered by fronts. It might not be what they make, but it certainly is a good chance.
 
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Skales

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I think people are getting very hung up on the lack of units and not admitting the possibilities of fronts. Sure it's speculation, but the way fronts could work is possibly not much different from units. I'm assuming that they are somewhat autogenerated based on the geography of the combat, and then supplied with troops and resources at the discretion of the player. The player could then assign different fronts different directions, like maybe drawing arrows to direct pushes in different ways. Assign the Army of Tennessee to just hold territory, and the Army of the Potomac to sail down to central Virginia, and push inward that way. Again, its speculation, but there are many ways to imagine fronts still allow player control of combat movement, and which are more realistic than armies directing operations in this area unit by unit. Certainly there are engaging ways within a front based system in which a player in control of a nation could be feel they are really directing a war, yet not having to constantly hover over its combat, and especially be given a chance to concern themselves with elements like logistics and terrain which basically no Paradox game to date has given adequate treatment of, because they are usually not immediate enough to warrant as much attention to as microing.

And especially if you are looking for example at something like the American Civil War, anything other than fronts directed in this way just doesn't make much sense. Sure there were units, and sure they moved around, but for the purposes of movement on the map scale any wargame paradox has made they didn't operate as independently so much as as fronts. The splitting off of units under a single command to conduct flanking maneuvers or varied approaches would have happened at far far smaller scales, and by the time that it did happen at larger scales the units basically formed a unified front anyways. At no point from the Napoleonic era until after WW1 were generals regularly conducting operations over hundreds of miles coordinated between multiple units; even with the advent of the telegraph the only examples of long distance coordination between units were either between what could most accurately be described as fronts, or between units that were simply part of the same mass of forces. Countless examples from the era however involved the leadership of opposing sides pulling out maps, drawing large arrows, planning out offensives, and allocating resources to them in a manner that could adequately and engagingly be covered by fronts. It might not be what they make, but it certainly is a good chance.

Someone made a very good point earlier than when the current system of warfare was initially conceived of. It was in games with much larger provinces. So depending on how large or small fronts are, assigning units to them could be a similar experience to playing Hoi4 on an EU2 map.
 
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