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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #22 - The Concept of War

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Hello and welcome to another Victoria 3 development diary! Today’s dev diary has been a hotly anticipated one, as we’re finally ready to start talking about war and combat and how they will work in Victoria 3.

So then, how does war and combat work? The answer is that we’ve taken a pretty different approach to warfare and combat in Victoria 3 compared to other Paradox Grand Strategy Games, and in this dev diary I’ll be going over the overall vision that governs our design for warfare, with the actual nitty-gritty on the mechanics coming over the next few weeks. Just as Victoria 3 itself has a set of design pillars that all game mechanics follow (as outlined in the very first diary), Warfare in Victoria 3 has its own design pillars, which we will now explain in turn.

The first pillar is one that is shared with the vision of the game as a whole: War is a Continuation of Diplomacy - anything you can gain through war should also be possible to gain through diplomacy. As we’ve already talked about this multiple times in the past, and last week’s dev diary told you all about Diplomatic Plays, we don’t feel the need to go into this again, but it’s still important to keep in mind to understand our approach to warfare.

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The second pillar, War is Strategic, is exactly what it sounds like. In Victoria 3, all decisions you make regarding warfare are on the strategic level, not the tactical. What this means is that you do not move units directly on the map, or make decisions about which exact units should be initiating battle where. Instead of being unit-in-province-based, warfare in Victoria 3 is focused on supplying and allocating troops to frontlines between you and your enemies. The decisions you make during war are about matters such as what front you send your generals to and what overall strategy they should be following there. If this sounds like a radical departure from the norm in Paradox GSGs, that’s because it is, and I’ll be talking more about the rationale at the end of this dev diary.

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The third pillar, War is Costly, is all about the cost of war - political, economic and humanitarian. There is no such thing as a bloodless war in Victoria 3, as just the act of mobilizing your army will immediately start accruing casualties from accident and disease (as these were and remain the biggest killers of men during war, not battles) in addition to being an immense financial burden for your country. The soldiers and conscripts who die during war leave behind children and widows, and may even become dependents themselves as a result of injuries sustained during your quest for national glory.

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The fourth pillar, Preparation is Key, ties heavily into the second and third pillars. Much of the strategic decision making in Victoria 3 that will let you win wars are all about how well prepared you are. For example: Have you promoted the most competent generals, or were you forced to promote an incompetent wastrel for political expedience? Have you invested in the best (but very costly) rifles for your soldiers, or are you forced to fight at a technological disadvantage? During the Diplomatic Play preceding the war, did you mobilize all your armies in time and eat the costs in men and materiel, or did you hold off hoping on a peaceful resolution, or at least for the conflict to end up as a limited war? Did you choose to build and subsidize an arms industry large enough to cover your wartime needs, or is your army reliant on import of weapons that may be vulnerable to enemy shipping disruptions? These are the sort of questions that can decide who has the true advantage when going into an armed conflict in Victoria 3.

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The fifth pillar, Navies Matter, is an ambition of ours that for many countries, navies should feel just as important (and in some cases more important) as armies. In addition to supporting or hindering overseas expeditions (by, for example, cutting off enemy supply lines), navies play a crucial role in waging economic warfare, as a country whose economy (or even worse, military goods supply) depends on trade will be vulnerable to the actions of hostile navies.

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The sixth and final pillar, War Changes, is all about the technological advances of the 19th century and the way that warfare changed from the maneuvering of post-napoleonic armies to the meat grinder that was World War One. Our ambition is for these changes to be felt in the gameplay of Victoria 3, as technologies such as the machine gun makes warfare an ever bloodier and costlier affair while advancements in naval technology makes it easier for countries with advanced navies to project global power.

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Before I end this dev diary, I want to talk briefly about our most radical departure from other Paradox GSGs - the absence of units you move on the map, and why we chose to go in this direction. The main reason is simply that Victoria 3 is a game primarily focused on Economy, Diplomacy and Politics and we felt a more strategic approach to warfare mechanics fits the game better than micro-intensive tactical maneuvering.

It’s important to note that how this works differs completely from having AI-controlled units in our other GSGs, since in Victoria 3 armies you assign armies to fronts rather than provinces (navies of course work differently, but more on that later). We’ll be getting into the exact details of the mechanics for both armies and navies in the coming weeks.

We of course still want Victoria 3 to have interesting and meaningful warfare mechanics, but we want the player to be engaging on a higher level of decision-making, making decisions about the overall war strategy and just how much they’re willing to sacrifice to achieve their goals rather than deciding which exact battalions should be battling it out in which exact province next.

This also ties into the general costliness of wars and the fact that you can achieve your ends through diplomacy - we want the ways in which an outmatched Victoria 3 player triumphs over their enemies to be clever diplomacy, well-planned logistics and rational strategic thinking rather than brilliant generalship. Ultimately, we’ve taken this approach to warfare for the same reason we take any game design decision: because we believe that it will make Victoria 3 a better game.

With that said, we’re done for today! We’ll of course be talking much more about warfare in the coming weeks, starting with next week’s dev diary on the topic of Fronts and Generals.
 
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We don't see "poblation units" walking around the map, neither.

This system can be very complete. You can add all the complexities you want to the control panels on the war fronts, without micromanagement of units.

In fact, don't rule out a DLC by adding more options to it and a World War I-focused start date.
 
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I do not know about short positions but it is clear that there is a clear relationship between DD on Thursday and share price on Friday (volume and price):


However, this share price is only an indicator of uncertainity about the result of this new system. Investors are very conservative and I am glad PDS does not develop games catering to them.
That volume is more than below average for the stock (323,072).

I honestly do not care about this issue. Usury is a sin. But still, the idea that a small drop in the price of a stock with a very high P/E ratio is some kind of unusual event is ludicrous.
 
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I think I'm fine with the fronts instead of units idea, but I hope the game simulates events on those fronts, just for flavor -- i.e. there's still things like a siege of Vicksburg that is won by General Grant, even if we're not marching units to that province and clicking the button to assault the fortress.
I am also fine with fronts instead of units. I found V2’s combat system tedious.

I am less fine with the idea that those fronts won’t be under your direct control, which based on what’s said here (eg not moving units, talk about supplying fronts) is how things will be.

Of course there is more to be revealed here, but I was holding off on preordering this game until I saw how the combat system works, and if the above is true, won’t preorder. Of course if the reviews are still excellent then I’ll probably pick it up eventually.

I agree that Vicky needed to go in a new direction. I just think, based on what’s said here (which of course may look different next week) that this is the wrong direction.
 
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I am less fine with the idea that those fronts won’t be under your direct control, which based on what’s said here (eg not moving units, talk about supplying fronts) is how things will be.
What would you define as a front being under your "direct control"?

All we know is that you won't be moving units around on the world map, and you probably will be assigning them to fronts (or assigning troops to fronts in some other way, maybe by base?). There's nothing there that indicates you won't have control over what the fronts themselves are doing.
 
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Let me blow your mind here: people can genuinely disagree with you. Because people are different and have different tastes. If you can not imagine a person who likes and plays Paradox games and also likes this change, it does not mean they don't exist. It means you have a failure of imagination.
I don't know if you comprehend what I write, but I did write "was mostly negative". Mostly negative already implies that there are different opinions around, like some people supporting the change. Next to that here yourself can witness people expressing a positive attitude towards no more micro of troops, so even though you might not understand it I do see other peoples opinions, as I myself express my opinions mixed with observations, experience and knowledge.

If someone is a real fan or not is also subjective, a person could never play pdx games and only watch streams stating loving the games and being a fan, even though never touching them in reality expressing an opinion about the games that isn't in any way factual.
 
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I logged after a long time just to say that I love the Vic III direction, thank you for all the great work devs.
I rarely preorder games, this will be the 2nd game ever Im going to preorder (if possible).

Vic III should be macro game, micro fans got tons of rts games.

Thank you paradox.
 
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As someone who's least favourite feature of PDX's games is usually moving units around the map, I absolutely welcome that change of concept.
I know it won't be everyone's taste but I'm overall very pleased that V3 seems to be quite different from the other titles (which I also love). Because the more different each of them is, the better they are in my opinion.
Keep up the good work V3 Team!
 
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I also like that Paradox are willing to try something different, especially something that's a big change from literally all their other games.

We should be thankful that a company such as Paradox is willing to continue evolving and trying new things. Too often in the gaming industry large companies just rinse and repeat the same bullsh!t game over and over (Looking directly at you EA and Ubisoft). Paradox is a pretty large company in the strategy space, it would be very easy for them to just update the graphics, change a few things here or there and what are we gonna do? stop buying Paradox games? lmao wut? I see the amount of badges you people have, I know your secrets you dirty little Paradox sluts that you are (he says fully away of his hypocrisy). So even if it's a completely terrible system I commend them on their willingness to push the envelope.
 
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I've been around for a bit. I've played Vicky 1 & 2, and plenty of other PDS titles too, without 1000s of hours in many PDS titles, so I'm one of the core "fanatics" too.

As someone with a modeling and simulation background, I can see why this was done. Warfare (land warfare) in Vicky 1&2 never struck me as particularly well fleshed out, those games did not do justice to any of the major conflicts of the period (American Civil War, Crimean War, Franco-Prussian War, Balkan Wars, WW1, the Russian Revolution, etc.). The mechanics that work well for EU4 and HOI4 seemed to really struggle here.

I think this new system has the potential to capture the later wars pretty well, so I'll keep an open mind. To me, it will (based on what I read here) really struggle to capture the earlier conflicts, before the "invention" of solid/static frontlines, because quite often those did require a bit more "brilliant tactics and brilliant generals". But I remain open to seeing how it is developed.

For me to really like whatever you come up with, it needs to have a very clear transition over time away from Napoleonic-style warfare to what we see in WW1 and WW2, reflected well in the gameplay mechanics (not just different and more modern units, but different actual warfare mechanics). So we'll see.
 
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I love the hands-off war! Finally we're going back to big-picture management, and not moving around armies like a peasant :D

I wish so many other PDX games used this approach, Stellaris being foremost, as it's the grandest-scaled game

To be fair, I do hope it's not too hands off. Like, yes I want to focus more on the strategic and less on the operational level of warfare. Absolutely. But there is a real risk of them overdoing it and making wars feel too uninvolved, unengaging or not skill based. The detractors of this change aren't entirely wrong about that.

Going by what they mentioned in this DD I'm hopeful that won't happen, but it absolutely still could.
 
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Wizz has done his Stellaris 2.0 all over again.

Joking aside lets see how it plays.The immersion issue is something games with this system tend to suffer from.It can feel somewhat bland and detached.
 
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adil3tr

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I'm open to this as long as it doesn't mean you have to watch the abstract lines fail with no way to intervene, as long as the civil war's cadence is still there, and I'd actually like some other stuff taken out like the interest group leaders.
 
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Zer00

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All of this sounds like a bold change and I'm intrigued to see more details as to how it'll turn out. Moving around unit stacks isn't necessarily interesting but managing army training, troop composition and leadership styles is something that would appeal to me more if implemented.
 
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Rebel1776

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I love the hands-off war! Finally we're going back to big-picture management, and not moving around armies like a peasant :D

I wish so many other PDX games used this approach, Stellaris being foremost, as it's the grandest-scaled game

Stellaris being foremost.

Just saying, given who was the Lead of that game upon Release, you still have undying faith in the Execution of this mechanic?

I like the concept, it sounds as if it could be pulled off quite well.

But then I read this comment, and am reminded of who led that team and I just go....yeah, I'm not confident.
 
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TinWiz

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The more I think about this "no units you move" thing, the more I like it [and no, whoever said anyone who is not critical about this is some kind of a Paradox fanboy; I hate that PDS abandoned I:R]. We don't need the mini action figurines that we play around with to game the system. Let us make the grand strategy decisions.

Full disclosure: I don't play multi-player, so I'm not sure if the tactical micro-management is really the main enjoyment when playing with others rather than against the AI. But it always feels like RTS "zoomed out" to me, not essential to the GSG. Like others have said, there is already EU and HoI for that. And it was the worst thing in Vic2.
 
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