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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #22 - The Concept of War

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Hello and welcome to another Victoria 3 development diary! Today’s dev diary has been a hotly anticipated one, as we’re finally ready to start talking about war and combat and how they will work in Victoria 3.

So then, how does war and combat work? The answer is that we’ve taken a pretty different approach to warfare and combat in Victoria 3 compared to other Paradox Grand Strategy Games, and in this dev diary I’ll be going over the overall vision that governs our design for warfare, with the actual nitty-gritty on the mechanics coming over the next few weeks. Just as Victoria 3 itself has a set of design pillars that all game mechanics follow (as outlined in the very first diary), Warfare in Victoria 3 has its own design pillars, which we will now explain in turn.

The first pillar is one that is shared with the vision of the game as a whole: War is a Continuation of Diplomacy - anything you can gain through war should also be possible to gain through diplomacy. As we’ve already talked about this multiple times in the past, and last week’s dev diary told you all about Diplomatic Plays, we don’t feel the need to go into this again, but it’s still important to keep in mind to understand our approach to warfare.

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The second pillar, War is Strategic, is exactly what it sounds like. In Victoria 3, all decisions you make regarding warfare are on the strategic level, not the tactical. What this means is that you do not move units directly on the map, or make decisions about which exact units should be initiating battle where. Instead of being unit-in-province-based, warfare in Victoria 3 is focused on supplying and allocating troops to frontlines between you and your enemies. The decisions you make during war are about matters such as what front you send your generals to and what overall strategy they should be following there. If this sounds like a radical departure from the norm in Paradox GSGs, that’s because it is, and I’ll be talking more about the rationale at the end of this dev diary.

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The third pillar, War is Costly, is all about the cost of war - political, economic and humanitarian. There is no such thing as a bloodless war in Victoria 3, as just the act of mobilizing your army will immediately start accruing casualties from accident and disease (as these were and remain the biggest killers of men during war, not battles) in addition to being an immense financial burden for your country. The soldiers and conscripts who die during war leave behind children and widows, and may even become dependents themselves as a result of injuries sustained during your quest for national glory.

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The fourth pillar, Preparation is Key, ties heavily into the second and third pillars. Much of the strategic decision making in Victoria 3 that will let you win wars are all about how well prepared you are. For example: Have you promoted the most competent generals, or were you forced to promote an incompetent wastrel for political expedience? Have you invested in the best (but very costly) rifles for your soldiers, or are you forced to fight at a technological disadvantage? During the Diplomatic Play preceding the war, did you mobilize all your armies in time and eat the costs in men and materiel, or did you hold off hoping on a peaceful resolution, or at least for the conflict to end up as a limited war? Did you choose to build and subsidize an arms industry large enough to cover your wartime needs, or is your army reliant on import of weapons that may be vulnerable to enemy shipping disruptions? These are the sort of questions that can decide who has the true advantage when going into an armed conflict in Victoria 3.

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The fifth pillar, Navies Matter, is an ambition of ours that for many countries, navies should feel just as important (and in some cases more important) as armies. In addition to supporting or hindering overseas expeditions (by, for example, cutting off enemy supply lines), navies play a crucial role in waging economic warfare, as a country whose economy (or even worse, military goods supply) depends on trade will be vulnerable to the actions of hostile navies.

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The sixth and final pillar, War Changes, is all about the technological advances of the 19th century and the way that warfare changed from the maneuvering of post-napoleonic armies to the meat grinder that was World War One. Our ambition is for these changes to be felt in the gameplay of Victoria 3, as technologies such as the machine gun makes warfare an ever bloodier and costlier affair while advancements in naval technology makes it easier for countries with advanced navies to project global power.

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Before I end this dev diary, I want to talk briefly about our most radical departure from other Paradox GSGs - the absence of units you move on the map, and why we chose to go in this direction. The main reason is simply that Victoria 3 is a game primarily focused on Economy, Diplomacy and Politics and we felt a more strategic approach to warfare mechanics fits the game better than micro-intensive tactical maneuvering.

It’s important to note that how this works differs completely from having AI-controlled units in our other GSGs, since in Victoria 3 armies you assign armies to fronts rather than provinces (navies of course work differently, but more on that later). We’ll be getting into the exact details of the mechanics for both armies and navies in the coming weeks.

We of course still want Victoria 3 to have interesting and meaningful warfare mechanics, but we want the player to be engaging on a higher level of decision-making, making decisions about the overall war strategy and just how much they’re willing to sacrifice to achieve their goals rather than deciding which exact battalions should be battling it out in which exact province next.

This also ties into the general costliness of wars and the fact that you can achieve your ends through diplomacy - we want the ways in which an outmatched Victoria 3 player triumphs over their enemies to be clever diplomacy, well-planned logistics and rational strategic thinking rather than brilliant generalship. Ultimately, we’ve taken this approach to warfare for the same reason we take any game design decision: because we believe that it will make Victoria 3 a better game.

With that said, we’re done for today! We’ll of course be talking much more about warfare in the coming weeks, starting with next week’s dev diary on the topic of Fronts and Generals.
 
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It'd be sufficiently more worthwhile to look for assorted conflating variables than to assume assorted finance groups and investor class saw Thursday's post and opted to sell off shares than anything else.

Also important to note that stock prices are literally just what the market wants to pay at a particular moment. This isn't (yet) the scale of say, CDPR literally getting sued by investors. I've seen a lot of posts like this over the years to justify all sorts of outrage but all the investing class cares about is financial projections and this game is not near enough in the future to cause any difference.

If we use this analysis, the investors already feel that the game is a bad idea and shouldn't be made since it went down in the aftermath of its announcement on May 21. There's a whole lot more going on to influence stock prices than a dev diary.

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Also don't forget, there was a 30% price drop in February. That coincided with this CK3 Dev Diary about winter mechanics.
Ergo, investor really, really, really don't like seasons?
 
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I do not deny that this mechanic can be interesting between powers with massive amount of resources but I argue how long will people want to play the limited amount of Majors and do the same resource warfare. The gameplay will shift to diplomacy which is fine but not enough in my opinion.
Making Majors Fun Again is my biggest hope for V3. Toning down the micro will go a long way towards that, especially at 4 ticks a day.
 
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To be fair, they and people like them already demonstrated a spectacular failure of imagination when they failed to imagine any possibility of how a game without units in provinces would work and leapt straight to "the AI will move units."
Nah, plenty of people opposed to change see that as "AI will fight wars for you", and yes, It`s not super hard to imagine how system without units on map would work, and Devs will tell us exactly how it will in short order, our issue is that such system will inevitably be boring after people figure out internals, like, for example HOI4 air combat perfectly fits the 4 points here, and yet it`s super boring and unattractive.
I did not want to write big posts, but I feel critics of the new Crackpot Idea changes are misunderstood as Idiots who do not want Progress of the brave developer Team.

I see now I must exactly and clearly state my motives and my understanding so:
Personally, I`m more interested in how dev team will make it possible for wars to have wildly unexpected outcomes, without making wars too random.

In previous titles, such randomness was controllable to a point with maneuvers over terrain, that player actually controlled. What`s the substitute, for dice roll, if any.
 
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I think I like the idea of supplying/reinforcing fronts instead of micro-managing units on provinces, although of course it depends on how it actually feels when playing it.

I would hope there are going to be some mechanics for fighting proxy wars, particularly by supplying not simply money but more importantly materiel to less-advanced powers, with realistic limits... you could supply the Zulus with machine guns (easy training for point-and-shoot), but not airplanes (pilot training, maintenance/repairs, fuel infrastructure, etc are beyond Zulu capability). I'd like to play a USA that uses a whole lot of diplomatic power most of the time, but also maintains a very formidable navy, and uses them together to help third-world countries resist European domination -- pushing back diplomatically until that no longer works, then fighting a naval war cutting the European supply lines while using the USA's industrial capacity to supply 3rd world armies, rather than shipping American soldiers overseas to fight on foreign soil.
 
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I think I'm fine with the fronts instead of units idea, but I hope the game simulates events on those fronts, just for flavor -- i.e. there's still things like a siege of Vicksburg that is won by General Grant, even if we're not marching units to that province and clicking the button to assault the fortress.
 
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It'd be sufficiently more worthwhile to look for assorted conflating variables than to assume assorted finance groups and investor class saw Thursday's post and opted to sell off shares than anything else.

Also important to note that stock prices are literally just what the market wants to pay at a particular moment. This isn't (yet) the scale of say, CDPR literally getting sued by investors. I've seen a lot of posts like this over the years to justify all sorts of outrage but all the investing class cares about is financial projections and this game is not near enough in the future to cause any difference.

If we use this analysis, the investors already feel that the game is a bad idea and shouldn't be made since it went down in the aftermath of its announcement on May 21. There's a whole lot more going on to influence stock prices than a dev diary.

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I was the one who showed Duckwizard the chart, i put a short on PDX stock the night of this terrible development diary, and it dropped almost 8% in the morning when the market opened, and i made 760$ profit when i covered my positions. And you are correct, the game being announced on May 21st was also a disappointment, atleast from the early screenshots making it look like a complete mobile game and unrecognizable from previous paradox titles.
 
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I was the one who showed Duckwizard the chart, i put a short on PDX stock the night of this terrible development diary, and it dropped almost 8% in the morning when the market opened, and i made 760$ profit when i covered my positions. And you are correct, the game being announced on May 21st was also a disappointment, atleast from the early screenshots making it look like a complete mobile game and unrecognizable from previous paradox titles.
Usury is a sin.
 
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What I've gathered here is that the folks against this change can't fathom that there would be regular players of these games who would genuinely want this. No, it has to be either forum fanboys or complete casuals who hate the system because they suck at it. I've been playing PDX games since 2014, I had tried EU3 and HOI2 before I personally purchased any of them, then I got CK2 and EU4 and they blew my mind. I also have HoI4, Vic 2 and now CK3. It's been a good 7 years overall (with ups and downs of course, but still).

I'll be the first to admit that I am not a mastermind at war in any of these games. I am very good at both CK 2 and 3, I can hold my own with a large or even medium-sized nation in HoI4 and EU4, small countries give me some trouble still. I'll echo the statements of some other people here and say that manually replacing armies in Vic 2 was one of the most tedious and terrible aspects of the game, EU4 did it better in this regard by letting you switch them almost automatically and instantaneously. To add to this, having to figure out the optimal number of inf/cav/art based on width in EU4 (and HoI4 to an extent), so I can grab whatever tiny little chances there are at saving myself from bad RNG in a few battles, is not at all fun. Nor do I like the time taken out of my nation's development and roleplaying so I even out a score or gain 100% to achieve my goals (that last part doesn't apply to some games I know).

I know that in multiplayer, and with some in single-player, there is a community of people who just love to optimize these things to the letter and then steamroll everything after completing their fine-tuning/positioning their units right/messing with the AI etc. I am not being dismissive, condescending or hateful when I say this, I understand that you are part of the community as well, but frankly this all feels out of place in this game and setting, I am glad to see a step away from it at least. We'll be able to judge how it turns out in the future, but even if it fails as an attempt, this does not mean that the old system is particularly good or engaging anymore.
Let me give you my perspective. I've been a paradox fan since I bought EU1 in the early 2000's, all the way through Imperator and CK3. I was also an avid RTS gamer, first in SC1 and then in SC2. So I've played everything on the spectrum of micro-focused to macro-focused. I generally trust Paradox to put out quality product, but they're far from infallible. I won't forget taking a week off from work to play Imperator at launch and being immeasurably disappointed with the disaster that game was at launch.

I don't think that this change represents an evolution, an upgrade or an improvement on the way that paradox games have handled warfare in the past. If anything, it feels like a lazy way of working around the difficulty involved in creating a smart combat AI. I think it's being dressed up in a lot of flowery language but at the end of the day it's going to mean that warfare will basically just be another background mechanic governed by modifiers and basic decisions on how much to commit to winning. Decisions and modifiers that are going to be mapped-out and minmaxed in a couple of days, with guides on how to win wars all over youtube by the game's first week after launch. The multiplayer scene will be stillborn, and single-player replayability will take a nosedive as each campaign starts to feel like the same game again and again as you implement the optimal policies then sit back and click the "build factory" button once a year until 1936.

It's obvious that there are people who will like this change. Some will be people who aren't traditionally into tactical micro, like Cities: Skylines fans. Others just get bored of micromanagement when they hit mid-game EU4 and army management and juggling truce timers becomes burdensome. Personally, I find Stellaris lategame pop and fleet/army micro so bad that I often just get bored and quit while waiting for the crisis. But the right move is adding in some degree of automation without requiring it - like the HOI4 battleplan system or Imperator's automated AI unit control- allowing the player to choose whether to micromanage or delegate warfare to the AI. Rather than killing the possibility of engaging multiplayer and devolving SP into clicking events and shift-clicking factories and railroads.

I know there's an intellectual appeal to the things Wiz is saying about how diplomacy will be center-stage, and pre-war preparation will be engaging and interesting. I'm not really buying it. It feels like they're crafting a simulation - a wonderful, interesting simulation that will be fascinating to run in observer mode - but automating the most engaging parts of the gameplay, the parts that make you sit eyes-glued to the PC until the sun starts to come up outside. Ultimately, I can't justify following the DDs, pre-ordering a game and eagerly waiting at home to play it only to realize that I'm spending most of my time just sitting and watching things happen for me, clicking a button occasionally here and there and generally just seeing the game play itself.
 
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Nah, plenty of people opposed to change see that as "AI will fight wars for you", and yes, It`s not super hard to imagine how system without units on map would work, and Devs will tell us exactly how it will in short order, our issue is that such system will inevitably be boring after people figure out internals, like, for example HOI4 air combat perfectly fits the 4 points here, and yet it`s super boring and unattractive.

I could imagine systems that I think are quite a bit different from HOI4 air combat.

The biggest for me is fronts that are quite small - only a few provinces at most. A war between major combatants would potentially have a half dozen or more fronts. Basically, you have roughly a front for every army stack that you would have had in Vic2. If army stacks are just replaced with fronts, then I don't think it is that big of a change. The only thing that is "lost" is walking the army stack around the map. If that makes for more realistic engagements with supply and logistics and the human players not automatically having the advantage by being on the "high ground", then seems worth it.

Another is the possibility of having battle phases. That hasn't been announced, but it would be possible. When two fronts meet, there could be battle phases that play out a bit like the diplomacy system with each player taking actions, which lead to outcomes, then both players get to take more actions. Sure, that system could be done for army stacks, but it hasn't been. That would certainly be more engaging than HOI4 air combat.

Long story short, I can imagine a front based system that could simulate some of the major wars like the ACW. It would have to be done just right, but it would be possible with small fronts, multiple options for how armies engage in the front, multiple battle phases, etc. I actually cannot imagine the ACW being simulated with the army stack system from Vic2. Not even close. The chasing down armies for stack wipes alone completely destroys the possibility.

So, to me, it is a step forward. Even if they don't get it right the first time, we can keep giving feedback and eventually they could create something really cool. Something better than the army stack system.

I feel bad for people who are in such a dark place that they cannot even fathom with the limits of their imagination a system with fronts that could be as fun as army stacks. To me, that is purely psychological. People are just that upset. Because a front based system could be anything. We still don't know anything about how it works. It could be incredibly detailed and interesting with lots of deep mechanics to replace not being able to move armies around in stack or it could be HOI4 air combat. Focusing on the worst case scenario and refusing to entertain anything else despite person after person presenting argument after argument...that is a really dark place. I am sorry.

In that way, I do think that Paradox has not handled this well. If fronts are unveiled in a week and they are really cool, then a lot of people will have gone on a rollercoaster of emotions for no reason. Those people will be rightfully unhappy. The fact that developers have stepped aside and "hidden" after the one DD that upset people also isn't the best look. I assume that the developers are thinking that it is best to let people get all of that emotion out of their system, but they could have tried something. Or maybe HOI4 air combat is coming and there is nothing to say. If that is the case, then I am not looking forward to the forums over the next few weeks.
 
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I could imagine systems that I think are quite a bit different from HOI4 air combat.

The biggest for me is fronts that are quite small - only a few provinces at most. A war between major combatants would potentially have a half dozen or more fronts. Basically, you have roughly a front for every army stack that you would have had in Vic2. If army stacks are just replaced with fronts, then I don't think it is that big of a change. The only thing that is "lost" is walking the army stack around the map. If that makes for more realistic engagements with supply and logistics and the human players not automatically having the advantage by being on the "high ground", then seems worth it.

Another is the possibility of having battle phases. That hasn't been announced, but it would be possible. When two fronts meet, there could be battle phases that play out a bit like the diplomacy system with each player taking actions, which lead to outcomes, then both players get to take more actions. Sure, that system could be done for army stacks, but it hasn't been. That would certainly be more engaging than HOI4 air combat.
I doubt it, it would be far easier to make simplified HOI4 battleplanner.
Long story short, I can imagine a front based system that could simulate some of the major wars like the ACW. It would have to be done just right, but it would be possible with small fronts, multiple options for how armies engage in the front, multiple battle phases, etc. I actually cannot imagine the ACW being simulated with the army stack system from Vic2. Not even close. The chasing down armies for stack wipes alone completely destroys the possibility.
V2 actually represented battle part well. What it didn`t was logistic, but that is a mark of any previous PI game, proper logistic is costly in computation.
So, to me, it is a step forward. Even if they don't get it right the first time, we can keep giving feedback and eventually they could create something really cool. Something better than the army stack system.
Or V3 could go the way Rome2 went, or the way HOI4 naval warfare went, that is, in opinion of majority of forumites, is broken, but it wasn`t adjusted, for like 4 patches, or HOI4 air and especially strategic bombing system that is very bad from release, and is still there 5 years later.
I feel bad for people who are in such a dark place that they cannot even fathom with the limits of their imagination a system with fronts that could be as fun as army stacks. To me, that is purely psychological. People are just that upset. Because a front based system could be anything. We still don't know anything about how it works. It could be incredibly detailed and interesting with lots of deep mechanics to replace not being able to move armies around in stack or it could be HOI4 air combat. Focusing on the worst case scenario and refusing to entertain anything else despite person after person presenting argument after argument...that is a really dark place. I am sorry.

In that way, I do think that Paradox has not handled this well. If fronts are unveiled in a week and they are really cool, then a lot of people will have gone on a rollercoaster of emotions for no reason. Those people will be rightfully unhappy. The fact that developers have stepped aside and "hidden" after the one DD that upset people also isn't the best look. I assume that the developers are thinking that it is best to let people get all of that emotion out of their system, but they could have tried something. Or maybe HOI4 air combat is coming and there is nothing to say. If that is the case, then I am not looking forward to the forums over the next few weeks.
Imagination is all great and wonderful, yet when you look at other dev teams, you can see why people would be skeptical, as once PI designs a system, it can take them years, or never, to redesign and adjust it. HOI4 is a great example. Innovative production system proved to be great. Similarly innovative battle planer, unitless air combat, are far less good or popular, while systems like unit templates, political power based ministers and designers have proven very hard to get right and fun, even if they are technically working.
 
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MTGian

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I was the one who showed Duckwizard the chart, i put a short on PDX stock the night of this terrible development diary, and it dropped almost 8% in the morning when the market opened, and i made 760$ profit when i covered my positions. And you are correct, the game being announced on May 21st was also a disappointment, atleast from the early screenshots making it look like a complete mobile game and unrecognizable from previous paradox titles.

There is something incredibly slimy about this post. I don't know if it is specifying exactly how much money you made or whether it is the arrogance to think that the stock movement was because of the DD or whether you are right, but you are profiting from people being upset and bragging about it, but it is noteworthy in its grossness. Well done.
 
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wilcoxchar

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I was the one who showed Duckwizard the chart, i put a short on PDX stock the night of this terrible development diary, and it dropped almost 8% in the morning when the market opened, and i made 760$ profit when i covered my positions.
This is a Victoria 3 dev diary thread, not r/thingsthatdidthappen.
 
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wilcoxchar

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Nah, plenty of people opposed to change see that as "AI will fight wars for you", and yes, It`s not super hard to imagine how system without units on map would work, and Devs will tell us exactly how it will in short order, our issue is that such system will inevitably be boring after people figure out internals, like, for example HOI4 air combat perfectly fits the 4 points here, and yet it`s super boring and unattractive.
Once again this shows a stark failure of imagination for what the new system could be. You still are expressing a simple incapability of imagining the new system as something that isn't some variation on "AI replacing the player in battles in a 1:1 fashion", and so in that failure to imagine something new, you automatically assume that new = bad and then fall back on the familiar except to reassure yourself that your first assumption is correct, automatically jump to the worst thing you can imagine to compare it to even though you have absolutely zero evidence or logical reasoning to make that comparison. It's a comparison that merely feels comfortable and confirms your prior biases, so therefore it must be the only correct conclusion, and anything outside that conclusion, including a simple admission that it is an unknown, must be wrong.
 
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It’s outrageous, egregious, preposterous! Or maybe even brilliant!

On one side, big risk making a move that will probably turn away a lot of players who are more into the tactical aspects of war... Big risk.

On the other side, abstracting war makes a lot of sense for this time frame. The logistic, tactical and strategic aspects of warfare are already too complex to implement in a simplified way...

Tough decision...

It's so outrageous that even Saddam Hussein is outraged!

...

Wait, what?

;P

This sounds really encouraging actually. Managing units was the least satisfying part of V1 and V2 - and the systems in place for those games led to many of the least immersive results (like for example 500,000 British Indians units landing on the west coast of the US).

It will be really interesting to see more about how the player can interact with the new strategic focus, but to me this sounds like exactly how a Victoria game should be played.

Technically, you will probably still be managing the units. Just not their movements. You may still be responsible for unit's organization (I believe it was brigades and armies if we are to go by Victoria 2 army organization but possibly also including division (unsure if division were also in Vicky 2 as well)) and other attributes, perhaps such as designating which units would be elite (at increased maintenance cost or something) or setting each unit's overall strengths. Frankly, we have so little details to go on that, at the moment, this is all speculation.
 
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Bezborg

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I love the hands-off war! Finally we're going back to big-picture management, and not moving around armies like a peasant :D

I wish so many other PDX games used this approach, Stellaris being foremost, as it's the grandest-scaled game
 
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Earmuffs

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Ok I finally got around to reading this.
I'm skeptical of the change from micro to macro, but I really REALLY like what I read in this dev diary.
If any Paradox game can pull off such a change I think it'll be this one. I was sold on this game being potential for best ever Paradox game, but I think if this warfare shift is nice to play in game, I think it'd be the cherry on the top to seal the deal as best ever Paradox game for me.

I can't wait to play this, just take my god damn money already Paradox.
 
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redcoat22

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This sounds like a terrible idea for so many reasons, I hope I am wrong
 
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