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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #22 - The Concept of War

16_9 (4).jpg

Hello and welcome to another Victoria 3 development diary! Today’s dev diary has been a hotly anticipated one, as we’re finally ready to start talking about war and combat and how they will work in Victoria 3.

So then, how does war and combat work? The answer is that we’ve taken a pretty different approach to warfare and combat in Victoria 3 compared to other Paradox Grand Strategy Games, and in this dev diary I’ll be going over the overall vision that governs our design for warfare, with the actual nitty-gritty on the mechanics coming over the next few weeks. Just as Victoria 3 itself has a set of design pillars that all game mechanics follow (as outlined in the very first diary), Warfare in Victoria 3 has its own design pillars, which we will now explain in turn.

The first pillar is one that is shared with the vision of the game as a whole: War is a Continuation of Diplomacy - anything you can gain through war should also be possible to gain through diplomacy. As we’ve already talked about this multiple times in the past, and last week’s dev diary told you all about Diplomatic Plays, we don’t feel the need to go into this again, but it’s still important to keep in mind to understand our approach to warfare.

dd22-1.png

The second pillar, War is Strategic, is exactly what it sounds like. In Victoria 3, all decisions you make regarding warfare are on the strategic level, not the tactical. What this means is that you do not move units directly on the map, or make decisions about which exact units should be initiating battle where. Instead of being unit-in-province-based, warfare in Victoria 3 is focused on supplying and allocating troops to frontlines between you and your enemies. The decisions you make during war are about matters such as what front you send your generals to and what overall strategy they should be following there. If this sounds like a radical departure from the norm in Paradox GSGs, that’s because it is, and I’ll be talking more about the rationale at the end of this dev diary.

dd22-2.png

The third pillar, War is Costly, is all about the cost of war - political, economic and humanitarian. There is no such thing as a bloodless war in Victoria 3, as just the act of mobilizing your army will immediately start accruing casualties from accident and disease (as these were and remain the biggest killers of men during war, not battles) in addition to being an immense financial burden for your country. The soldiers and conscripts who die during war leave behind children and widows, and may even become dependents themselves as a result of injuries sustained during your quest for national glory.

dd22-3.png

The fourth pillar, Preparation is Key, ties heavily into the second and third pillars. Much of the strategic decision making in Victoria 3 that will let you win wars are all about how well prepared you are. For example: Have you promoted the most competent generals, or were you forced to promote an incompetent wastrel for political expedience? Have you invested in the best (but very costly) rifles for your soldiers, or are you forced to fight at a technological disadvantage? During the Diplomatic Play preceding the war, did you mobilize all your armies in time and eat the costs in men and materiel, or did you hold off hoping on a peaceful resolution, or at least for the conflict to end up as a limited war? Did you choose to build and subsidize an arms industry large enough to cover your wartime needs, or is your army reliant on import of weapons that may be vulnerable to enemy shipping disruptions? These are the sort of questions that can decide who has the true advantage when going into an armed conflict in Victoria 3.

dd22-4.png

The fifth pillar, Navies Matter, is an ambition of ours that for many countries, navies should feel just as important (and in some cases more important) as armies. In addition to supporting or hindering overseas expeditions (by, for example, cutting off enemy supply lines), navies play a crucial role in waging economic warfare, as a country whose economy (or even worse, military goods supply) depends on trade will be vulnerable to the actions of hostile navies.

dd22-5.png


The sixth and final pillar, War Changes, is all about the technological advances of the 19th century and the way that warfare changed from the maneuvering of post-napoleonic armies to the meat grinder that was World War One. Our ambition is for these changes to be felt in the gameplay of Victoria 3, as technologies such as the machine gun makes warfare an ever bloodier and costlier affair while advancements in naval technology makes it easier for countries with advanced navies to project global power.

dd22-6.png

Before I end this dev diary, I want to talk briefly about our most radical departure from other Paradox GSGs - the absence of units you move on the map, and why we chose to go in this direction. The main reason is simply that Victoria 3 is a game primarily focused on Economy, Diplomacy and Politics and we felt a more strategic approach to warfare mechanics fits the game better than micro-intensive tactical maneuvering.

It’s important to note that how this works differs completely from having AI-controlled units in our other GSGs, since in Victoria 3 armies you assign armies to fronts rather than provinces (navies of course work differently, but more on that later). We’ll be getting into the exact details of the mechanics for both armies and navies in the coming weeks.

We of course still want Victoria 3 to have interesting and meaningful warfare mechanics, but we want the player to be engaging on a higher level of decision-making, making decisions about the overall war strategy and just how much they’re willing to sacrifice to achieve their goals rather than deciding which exact battalions should be battling it out in which exact province next.

This also ties into the general costliness of wars and the fact that you can achieve your ends through diplomacy - we want the ways in which an outmatched Victoria 3 player triumphs over their enemies to be clever diplomacy, well-planned logistics and rational strategic thinking rather than brilliant generalship. Ultimately, we’ve taken this approach to warfare for the same reason we take any game design decision: because we believe that it will make Victoria 3 a better game.

With that said, we’re done for today! We’ll of course be talking much more about warfare in the coming weeks, starting with next week’s dev diary on the topic of Fronts and Generals.
 
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No, people just do not want to takeover Poland as Germany for the 85th time. I played EU IV for 4600 Hours - how can I do that with only Major Nations? I fully require Victoria 3 to be as replayable otherwise it is not up to standard. Hoi IV devs began to give new focus trees to minor nations because the metrics showed more and more people playing them anyway.
Hey man, maybe this game just isn’t for you.
 
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You know, maybe we should wait for more details before coming to any conclusions. And trust the developer team more. Let's assume it will be good unless and until proved otherwise by subsequent diaries. At this point there is simply not enough info to conclude either way.
 
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Please please please dont back down from this revolutionary approach of removing tactical warfare and making the first true Paradox GRAND STRATEGY game. Im sure therell be plenty of backlash at first but it will be worth it!
 
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As someone who enjoys the macro aspect and often quits once large enough as I can't be bothered with hundreds of units management, I welcome the change.

For those that love unit micro, don't be selfish. Bite the bullet, accept this single title isn't for you and move on, ALL the other titles from the past 20 years are still yours to play with.
 
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Wiz I hope your office is big enough to fit the wheelbarrow for carrying those balls of steel. The paradox community if infamous for not liking change :p
 
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Hello and welcome to another Victoria 3 development diary! Today’s dev diary has been a hotly anticipated one, as we’re finally ready to start talking about war and combat and how they will work in Victoria 3.

So then, how does war and combat work? The answer is that we’ve taken a pretty different approach to warfare and combat in Victoria 3 compared to other Paradox Grand Strategy Games, and in this dev diary I’ll be going over the overall vision that governs our design for warfare, with the actual nitty-gritty on the mechanics coming over the next few weeks. Just as Victoria 3 itself has a set of design pillars that all game mechanics follow (as outlined in the very first diary), Warfare in Victoria 3 has its own design pillars, which we will now explain in turn.

The first pillar is one that is shared with the vision of the game as a whole: War is a Continuation of Diplomacy - anything you can gain through war should also be possible to gain through diplomacy. As we’ve already talked about this multiple times in the past, and last week’s dev diary told you all about Diplomatic Plays, we don’t feel the need to go into this again, but it’s still important to keep in mind to understand our approach to warfare.

The second pillar, War is Strategic, is exactly what it sounds like. In Victoria 3, all decisions you make regarding warfare are on the strategic level, not the tactical. What this means is that you do not move units directly on the map, or make decisions about which exact units should be initiating battle where. Instead of being unit-in-province-based, warfare in Victoria 3 is focused on supplying and allocating troops to frontlines between you and your enemies. The decisions you make during war are about matters such as what front you send your generals to and what overall strategy they should be following there. If this sounds like a radical departure from the norm in Paradox GSGs, that’s because it is, and I’ll be talking more about the rationale at the end of this dev diary.


The third pillar, War is Costly, is all about the cost of war - political, economic and humanitarian. There is no such thing as a bloodless war in Victoria 3, as just the act of mobilizing your army will immediately start accruing casualties from accident and disease (as these were and remain the biggest killers of men during war, not battles) in addition to being an immense financial burden for your country. The soldiers and conscripts who die during war leave behind children and widows, and may even become dependents themselves as a result of injuries sustained during your quest for national glory.


The fourth pillar, Preparation is Key, ties heavily into the second and third pillars. Much of the strategic decision making in Victoria 3 that will let you win wars are all about how well prepared you are. For example: Have you promoted the most competent generals, or were you forced to promote an incompetent wastrel for political expedience? Have you invested in the best (but very costly) rifles for your soldiers, or are you forced to fight at a technological disadvantage? During the Diplomatic Play preceding the war, did you mobilize all your armies in time and eat the costs in men and materiel, or did you hold off hoping on a peaceful resolution, or at least for the conflict to end up as a limited war? Did you choose to build and subsidize an arms industry large enough to cover your wartime needs, or is your army reliant on import of weapons that may be vulnerable to enemy shipping disruptions? These are the sort of questions that can decide who has the true advantage when going into an armed conflict in Victoria 3.


The fifth pillar, Navies Matter, is an ambition of ours that for many countries, navies should feel just as important (and in some cases more important) as armies. In addition to supporting or hindering overseas expeditions (by, for example, cutting off enemy supply lines), navies play a crucial role in waging economic warfare, as a country whose economy (or even worse, military goods supply) depends on trade will be vulnerable to the actions of hostile navies.

View attachment 770284

The sixth and final pillar, War Changes, is all about the technological advances of the 19th century and the way that warfare changed from the maneuvering of post-napoleonic armies to the meat grinder that was World War One. Our ambition is for these changes to be felt in the gameplay of Victoria 3, as technologies such as the machine gun makes warfare an ever bloodier and costlier affair while advancements in naval technology makes it easier for countries with advanced navies to project global power.


Before I end this dev diary, I want to talk briefly about our most radical departure from other Paradox GSGs - the absence of units you move on the map, and why we chose to go in this direction. The main reason is simply that Victoria 3 is a game primarily focused on Economy, Diplomacy and Politics and we felt a more strategic approach to warfare mechanics fits the game better than micro-intensive tactical maneuvering.

It’s important to note that how this works differs completely from having AI-controlled units in our other GSGs, since in Victoria 3 armies you assign armies to fronts rather than provinces (navies of course work differently, but more on that later). We’ll be getting into the exact details of the mechanics for both armies and navies in the coming weeks.

We of course still want Victoria 3 to have interesting and meaningful warfare mechanics, but we want the player to be engaging on a higher level of decision-making, making decisions about the overall war strategy and just how much they’re willing to sacrifice to achieve their goals rather than deciding which exact battalions should be battling it out in which exact province next.

This also ties into the general costliness of wars and the fact that you can achieve your ends through diplomacy - we want the ways in which an outmatched Victoria 3 player triumphs over their enemies to be clever diplomacy, well-planned logistics and rational strategic thinking rather than brilliant generalship. Ultimately, we’ve taken this approach to warfare for the same reason we take any game design decision: because we believe that it will make Victoria 3 a better game.

With that said, we’re done for today! We’ll of course be talking much more about warfare in the coming weeks, starting with next week’s dev diary on the topic of Fronts and Generals.
BIG F, but nevertheless im excited to see this new warfare system, i know is easier to just recycle what other games do and do it ok, but doing a new complete and deep warfare system is so cool, i just hope it doesnt end up bad, or feel like playing a risk game, because then, using the old mechanics would be better, i trust u guys, making something new is hard, and even if it feels weird to have another type of warfare i support u guys until the product is released, we need to test it first.

PD: would be cool to still have some sort of unit representation in map, like, i would like to see my soldiers uniform and weapons evolutionate trough the years, also would be cool having war effects like explosions, mini soldiers advancing, and sso and so
 
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The paradox community if infamous for not liking change
I shouldn't worry over it.
ice_cream.jpg

The passage of time always brings about change. Who will care in 50 years?
 
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Wow. I didn't expect this... but now I am absolutely hyped for this game. There are hundreds of games that allow me to delve into tactical detail, but precious few that genuinely let me focus on the grand sweeps. I'm so glad PDS have gone this direction... otherwise I could have seen myself quitting the game when the WWI equivalent kicked in and the game suddenly transitioned from an economic and social simulator to a full on wargame.
 
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No, if you actually read through the posts both here and elsewhere, a lot of the older posters who are dedicated to single player and even a lot of people who enjoy multiplayer also despise the unit micromanagement. It's one of the big reasons why multiplayer is tedious for a game like Victoria and why a lot of people stopped playing it mp back in the day, because instead of actually focusing on the core mechanics of the game and having a smooth, pause-free game mp games just devolved into constant pausing and unit clickfests instead of actually playing the game, which became tedious for everyone involved, particularly so for those who weren't fighting wars at the time. Finally, we might have an actually economics-politics-internal management-focused multiplayer game that doesn't get bogged down with pausing every two seconds because someone needs to reposition their units on a front.

Reading through the posts here is subjective. I might read the opinion of someone who only plays single player and get's even overwhelmed in small scale situations not being able to make sucessful advanced decisions to outsmart the set environment or someone who played only a few hours across all the titles despising micro in general wanting a sit back and click 10 buttons simulator now supporting the change even though he kinda never was part of the active and large player base across the board. The posts could also only be done by hardcore Vicky 3 fans that envision some kind of perfect game fitting their fantasy, in which the devs promise new and deep strategic warfare decisions, which in the end could be a big hoax. Lately happend with for example CP2077 in which fans created a narrative of the game being on a different level. Expectations here are local expressions of a wishful future. We could also get the greatest title of all time in which warfare is lifted on a new level pleasing sp and mp fans alike, but how pdx has handeled the releases lately, except of ck3, I'm more pessimistic in that sense.

What I read on the plattforms that aren't filled with active forum warriors is mostly negative, these are the people that put alot of hours into playing the grand strategy games and from them I heavily doubt they dislike micro, not having micro was the major cause of disappointment. Next to that vicky 2 didn't even have the modern qol features that are kinda standard nowadays and liften the "tedious" micro. A new title could and should easily integrate that.
 
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Wow. I didn't expect this... but now I am absolutely hyped for this game. There are hundreds of games that allow me to delve into tactical detail, but precious few that genuinely let me focus on the grand sweeps. I'm so glad PDS have gone this direction... otherwise I could have seen myself quitting the game when the WWI equivalent kicked in and the game suddenly transitioned from an economic and social simulator to a full on wargame.
PDX should get a gamesworkshop partnership and create a grand strategy Warhammer game similar to TWWH series! That would be great :cool:
 
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Kyoumen

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What I read on the plattforms that aren't filled with active forum warriors is mostly negative, these are the people that put alot of hours into playing the grand strategy games and from them I heavily doubt they dislike micro, not having micro was the major cause of disappointment.
"What I read on the platforms where I find that people agree with is that they agree with me, which means they are sincere and play the games. People on the platforms that disagree with me, conversely, are not real fans and only say what they say because they like arguing or can't play the games or maybe have only played ten hours of Paradox games total or are hopeless idealists."

Let me blow your mind here: people can genuinely disagree with you. Because people are different and have different tastes. If you can not imagine a person who likes and plays Paradox games and also likes this change, it does not mean they don't exist. It means you have a failure of imagination.
 
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wilcoxchar

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"What I read on the platforms where I find that people agree with is that they agree with me, which means they are sincere and play the games. People on the platforms that disagree with me, conversely, are not real fans and only say what they say because they like arguing or can't play the games or maybe have only played ten hours of Paradox games total or are hopeless idealists."

Let me blow your mind here: people can genuinely disagree with you. Because people are different and have different tastes. If you can not imagine a person who likes and plays Paradox games and also likes this change, it does not mean they don't exist. It means you have a failure of imagination.
To be fair, they and people like them already demonstrated a spectacular failure of imagination when they failed to imagine any possibility of how a game without units in provinces would work and leapt straight to "the AI will move units."
 
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Tomray94

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What I've gathered here is that the folks against this change can't fathom that there would be regular players of these games who would genuinely want this. No, it has to be either forum fanboys or complete casuals who hate the system because they suck at it. I've been playing PDX games since 2014, I had tried EU3 and HOI2 before I personally purchased any of them, then I got CK2 and EU4 and they blew my mind. I also have HoI4, Vic 2 and now CK3. It's been a good 7 years overall (with ups and downs of course, but still).

I'll be the first to admit that I am not a mastermind at war in any of these games. I am very good at both CK 2 and 3, I can hold my own with a large or even medium-sized nation in HoI4 and EU4, small countries give me some trouble still. I'll echo the statements of some other people here and say that manually replacing armies in Vic 2 was one of the most tedious and terrible aspects of the game, EU4 did it better in this regard by letting you switch them almost automatically and instantaneously. To add to this, having to figure out the optimal number of inf/cav/art based on width in EU4 (and HoI4 to an extent), so I can grab whatever tiny little chances there are at saving myself from bad RNG in a few battles, is not at all fun. Nor do I like the time taken out of my nation's development and roleplaying so I even out a score or gain 100% to achieve my goals (that last part doesn't apply to some games I know).

I know that in multiplayer, and with some in single-player, there is a community of people who just love to optimize these things to the letter and then steamroll everything after completing their fine-tuning/positioning their units right/messing with the AI etc. I am not being dismissive, condescending or hateful when I say this, I understand that you are part of the community as well, but frankly this all feels out of place in this game and setting, I am glad to see a step away from it at least. We'll be able to judge how it turns out in the future, but even if it fails as an attempt, this does not mean that the old system is particularly good or engaging anymore.
 
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Not going to lie, I was dreading the release of Victoria 3 when it was first announced. It felt like Paradox's game philosophy felt like had been lacking innovation and a push to simulating history instead of just mimicking it these last few years, and I didn't think the developers were up to the task Vicky 2 set for them.

I'm amazed how quickly this development team has shut me up, and I couldn't be more excited to see what else they have under the hood for the game. Warfare sounds like it's going to be a fun new experience, and I can't wait to see it.
 
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Antimonum

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To be fair, they and people like them already demonstrated a spectacular failure of imagination when they failed to imagine any possibility of how a game without units in provinces would work and leapt straight to "the AI will move units."
I did not want to write big posts, but I feel critics of the new Crackpot Idea changes are misunderstood as Idiots who do not want Progress of the brave developer Team.

I see now I must exactly and clearly state my motives and my understanding so:

For me as a critic of the decisions taken it was clear from the start the following about warfare:
The AI will not move single units on the map but will handle numbers of Manpower supplies and Battlefield Modifiers on both sides of a frontline between two enemies regardless if human or AI. Both enemies will have frotnline movement changes on the territory of the loosing party and changes to numbers of supply and Manpower according to what the Math of modifiers and raw Army numbers shows in every given moment. After some critical threshold there will probably be a rout unless forts stop advancement of the routing Army. This map of Modifiers might be shown on the frontline as battles in order for the player to better visualise it and try to react to it with some kind of resource transfer (either transfer of troops(meaning manpower and supplies), generals or some kind of military Policy) and that is where the player proficiency ends.

And I think that is bad for the following Reasons:
Since weak countries with busy allies do not have as much supplies and Manpower they will automatically loose. Under the two current best warfare systems HOI IV and EU IV there is countless possibilities of legitimate non exploiting manoeuvres, pinning faint retreating sieging or encirclement witch help underequipped Armies to win against all odds. And here I am not speaking of Order 66 in HOI IV or of Island trapping or Parachuting behind forts in EU IV. I am speaking of sweat inducing micro intensive work which can be hard but is very rewarding. If warfare is decided on fronts with numbers and no micro work the party with more supply will always win. That was not always so in History.

I do not deny that this mechanic can be interesting between powers with massive amount of resources but I argue how long will people want to play the limited amount of Majors and do the same resource warfare. The gameplay will shift to diplomacy which is fine but not enough in my opinion.
 
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View attachment 771008
Vic3 devs cost shareholders 10% of their assets. Nothing is wrong if you disagree you will be silenced and bombarded.
LOL just wait until the game flops harder then imperator appealing to singleplayer really helped you guys there.
still no chat function in imperator and ck3 I wonder why they have no multiplayer communities. Everyone knows alienating your
most consistent and loyal customers for no discernable reason but you dont play the game the same exact way as you is ok because
they are only 20% of the playerbase. Every success business on earth is founded upon excluding potential clients.

It'd be sufficiently more worthwhile to look for assorted conflating variables than to assume assorted finance groups and investor class saw Thursday's post and opted to sell off shares than anything else.

Also important to note that stock prices are literally just what the market wants to pay at a particular moment. This isn't (yet) the scale of say, CDPR literally getting sued by investors. I've seen a lot of posts like this over the years to justify all sorts of outrage but all the investing class cares about is financial projections and this game is not near enough in the future to cause any difference.

If we use this analysis, the investors already feel that the game is a bad idea and shouldn't be made since it went down in the aftermath of its announcement on May 21. There's a whole lot more going on to influence stock prices than a dev diary.

1636245114396.png
 
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