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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #22 - The Concept of War

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Hello and welcome to another Victoria 3 development diary! Today’s dev diary has been a hotly anticipated one, as we’re finally ready to start talking about war and combat and how they will work in Victoria 3.

So then, how does war and combat work? The answer is that we’ve taken a pretty different approach to warfare and combat in Victoria 3 compared to other Paradox Grand Strategy Games, and in this dev diary I’ll be going over the overall vision that governs our design for warfare, with the actual nitty-gritty on the mechanics coming over the next few weeks. Just as Victoria 3 itself has a set of design pillars that all game mechanics follow (as outlined in the very first diary), Warfare in Victoria 3 has its own design pillars, which we will now explain in turn.

The first pillar is one that is shared with the vision of the game as a whole: War is a Continuation of Diplomacy - anything you can gain through war should also be possible to gain through diplomacy. As we’ve already talked about this multiple times in the past, and last week’s dev diary told you all about Diplomatic Plays, we don’t feel the need to go into this again, but it’s still important to keep in mind to understand our approach to warfare.

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The second pillar, War is Strategic, is exactly what it sounds like. In Victoria 3, all decisions you make regarding warfare are on the strategic level, not the tactical. What this means is that you do not move units directly on the map, or make decisions about which exact units should be initiating battle where. Instead of being unit-in-province-based, warfare in Victoria 3 is focused on supplying and allocating troops to frontlines between you and your enemies. The decisions you make during war are about matters such as what front you send your generals to and what overall strategy they should be following there. If this sounds like a radical departure from the norm in Paradox GSGs, that’s because it is, and I’ll be talking more about the rationale at the end of this dev diary.

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The third pillar, War is Costly, is all about the cost of war - political, economic and humanitarian. There is no such thing as a bloodless war in Victoria 3, as just the act of mobilizing your army will immediately start accruing casualties from accident and disease (as these were and remain the biggest killers of men during war, not battles) in addition to being an immense financial burden for your country. The soldiers and conscripts who die during war leave behind children and widows, and may even become dependents themselves as a result of injuries sustained during your quest for national glory.

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The fourth pillar, Preparation is Key, ties heavily into the second and third pillars. Much of the strategic decision making in Victoria 3 that will let you win wars are all about how well prepared you are. For example: Have you promoted the most competent generals, or were you forced to promote an incompetent wastrel for political expedience? Have you invested in the best (but very costly) rifles for your soldiers, or are you forced to fight at a technological disadvantage? During the Diplomatic Play preceding the war, did you mobilize all your armies in time and eat the costs in men and materiel, or did you hold off hoping on a peaceful resolution, or at least for the conflict to end up as a limited war? Did you choose to build and subsidize an arms industry large enough to cover your wartime needs, or is your army reliant on import of weapons that may be vulnerable to enemy shipping disruptions? These are the sort of questions that can decide who has the true advantage when going into an armed conflict in Victoria 3.

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The fifth pillar, Navies Matter, is an ambition of ours that for many countries, navies should feel just as important (and in some cases more important) as armies. In addition to supporting or hindering overseas expeditions (by, for example, cutting off enemy supply lines), navies play a crucial role in waging economic warfare, as a country whose economy (or even worse, military goods supply) depends on trade will be vulnerable to the actions of hostile navies.

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The sixth and final pillar, War Changes, is all about the technological advances of the 19th century and the way that warfare changed from the maneuvering of post-napoleonic armies to the meat grinder that was World War One. Our ambition is for these changes to be felt in the gameplay of Victoria 3, as technologies such as the machine gun makes warfare an ever bloodier and costlier affair while advancements in naval technology makes it easier for countries with advanced navies to project global power.

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Before I end this dev diary, I want to talk briefly about our most radical departure from other Paradox GSGs - the absence of units you move on the map, and why we chose to go in this direction. The main reason is simply that Victoria 3 is a game primarily focused on Economy, Diplomacy and Politics and we felt a more strategic approach to warfare mechanics fits the game better than micro-intensive tactical maneuvering.

It’s important to note that how this works differs completely from having AI-controlled units in our other GSGs, since in Victoria 3 armies you assign armies to fronts rather than provinces (navies of course work differently, but more on that later). We’ll be getting into the exact details of the mechanics for both armies and navies in the coming weeks.

We of course still want Victoria 3 to have interesting and meaningful warfare mechanics, but we want the player to be engaging on a higher level of decision-making, making decisions about the overall war strategy and just how much they’re willing to sacrifice to achieve their goals rather than deciding which exact battalions should be battling it out in which exact province next.

This also ties into the general costliness of wars and the fact that you can achieve your ends through diplomacy - we want the ways in which an outmatched Victoria 3 player triumphs over their enemies to be clever diplomacy, well-planned logistics and rational strategic thinking rather than brilliant generalship. Ultimately, we’ve taken this approach to warfare for the same reason we take any game design decision: because we believe that it will make Victoria 3 a better game.

With that said, we’re done for today! We’ll of course be talking much more about warfare in the coming weeks, starting with next week’s dev diary on the topic of Fronts and Generals.
 
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Generals who treat their forces like pieces on chessboards are much more often notable for their failures rather than their successes.
I guess Guderian, Rommel, Patton, Richie,
I feel like everyone needs to take a step back and take a breath. After reading every comment made so far, as well as the DD several times, it is clear that people in the comment sections are making up all kinds of things, despite there being very little actual information in the DD.
This goes for people on both sides- we have NO idea yet how it looks like or how it will play out. All we know is that we won't be personally moving armies in provinces, yet we have people both saying that this 'ruins the game' and renders it into a 'mobile clicker game', and also people hailing it as 'the next greatest and most innovative step in Grand Strategy' and 'best system ever, devs marry me!!' Can't we all be just a little patient and wait for next week?

I am personally saddened by the apparent removal of personally controlled armies moving across provinces- the 'toy soldiers' as some commenters have described them- as these have been a staple of the Paradox series and something that I personally found rather engaging. Whether or not this new system is better than the old, and in what ways if at all, is something we will have to see.
Imagine being told that the entirety of how war works with land combat, is being dramatically changed, leaving us with only 1 piece of detail (you cannot move troops on the map yourself) and when people ask for more details, the devs tell you to wait a week for more details.

Yea, I can't imagine why people would freak out...nope...absolutely no clue...
 
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Yea, I can't imagine why people would freak out...nope...absolutely no clue...
There is no good reason to freak out about this dev diary. (Quite a few bad ones, but no good ones.)

The people who will not buy a strategy game that doesn't allow operational-level micro using concrete on-map units don't need to freak out; they just need to politely say "I will not buy a Paradox title without operational micro because operational micro is one of my favourite things ever" and walk away knowing that they don't need to pay any more attention to Vic3 dev diaries and can do something else with the time they would otherwise have spent on it.

Because really, this is up there with "goods only exist as a flow" in the "some people won't like this, but we've already committed to it in the overall design and ongoing implementation and unwinding it would cause catastrophic budget and schedule overruns, so you saying you don't like it is of no practical interest to the game designers" stakes.
 
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Got to be 100% honest: Not pre-purchasing this game based on this DD. If the reviews of the game are great then I may still buy, of course, I'm just not sold on this combat system and think that a game without controllable combat won't be as much fun.

I also didn't love the V1/2 combat systems, but this seems a mis-step.


Of course if the fronts are controllable by the player beyond simply supplying units to them that could be another thing, but this looks like AI control which I honestly have had no interest in going right back to HOI3 when it was first introduced. My guess is there are fronts and your interaction with those fronts is setting objectives for them, but I could be wrong of course.
 
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I guess Guderian, Rommel, Patton, Richie,

So? Rommel was a terrible Field Marshal and he was beaten by his own logistics with his whole work in the war being pretty little in the grand scheme of things. Guderian was a good commander and quite a great fantasy book writer that could do little against the terrible planning of the Barbarossa campaign and lack of oil. Whereas the allies overwhelmed the axis with the sheer might of industry and intelligence, nothing more, nothing less.
 
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This sounds really encouraging actually. Managing units was the least satisfying part of V1 and V2 - and the systems in place for those games led to many of the least immersive results (like for example 500,000 British Indians units landing on the west coast of the US).

It will be really interesting to see more about how the player can interact with the new strategic focus, but to me this sounds like exactly how a Victoria game should be played.
 
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No micro'd units?

Absolutely based. Maybe this game can actually have realistic warfare now. No more armies moving much slower than they would in real life to make warfare playable, or battles lasting weeks so you can move your slow armies to reinforce. Now maybe using guerilla tactics can actually be done now too.
 
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The funniest thing is, people already so committed to Vic3 that they take the time to join the posting lists, go to the page and read at least SOME of the almost 70 full pages of comments, and then even go so far as to spend time to add a comment that they will "never" buy this game, are the kind who are 90% likely to buy it anyway.

Whether they will continue to play it, or buy future DLC is another question.

But it will be played, and the funniest thing is we all know that.

Because that's the nature of an addiction, and the challenge of beating a new PDX system - let alone other players - in the ultimate tests of intelligence and grand strategy, are what drives us to 'waste' thousands of hours and hundreds of our local currencies - a literal addiction.

It is pretty clear that tantrums are not going to shift this juggernaut's momentum now.

All we can ALL do, on every side of this 'debate', is wait for release, and see how well/badly this new system will work.

Fingers crossed our Icelandic cousins get it right.

And no doubt at all that other design choices will annoy other players before release too.

The 'Kill pack of Blue Whales' that randomly sink half of the ships crossing the Atlantic will be particularly egregious, although perhaps matched by the ghostly mocking laughter when anyone decides to invade Russia, and the English gaining a taste for snails and frogs legs is up there as well.

Still, a new game is a new challenge, and the truth is the large majority of us will at least TRY this new game, any many who cannot conceive of enjoying it will, and it will leave also some with too much Hopium disappointed.

Me, I'm still stoked for it. I don't need to play General in every game - being PM or President (or Monarch) can be enough of a challenge if done right.

Just so long as I can still send Haig in front of a firing squad.
 
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It might have been said before, maybe even by me, but aside the amazing thing not to play chase with enemy units anymore there is another advantage of the new mechanic.

I was worried how they would portray the change from napoleonic warfare to trenchwarfare in the course of time. Now without the need for it, they can deal with that aspect by simply changing the look of the front line.

Speaking of look. I've tried to discuss the art we would like to see for the new mechanic in a separate thread. Any constructive comment is welcome. "I don't like the new system" comment can stay here.

 
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2) All the previous titles except imperator are very popular and contain micro as a major element. I think alot forum warriors despise micro, but on the field the people that are dedicated to sp and mp like or love it. MP lives from outsmarting and outmaneuvering your opponent on single conntected tiles in battle and not from clicking the "plan offense" button and then watching some background calculation determing if you win an automatically started frontline assault or not.
No, if you actually read through the posts both here and elsewhere, a lot of the older posters who are dedicated to single player and even a lot of people who enjoy multiplayer also despise the unit micromanagement. It's one of the big reasons why multiplayer is tedious for a game like Victoria and why a lot of people stopped playing it mp back in the day, because instead of actually focusing on the core mechanics of the game and having a smooth, pause-free game mp games just devolved into constant pausing and unit clickfests instead of actually playing the game, which became tedious for everyone involved, particularly so for those who weren't fighting wars at the time. Finally, we might have an actually economics-politics-internal management-focused multiplayer game that doesn't get bogged down with pausing every two seconds because someone needs to reposition their units on a front.
 
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Never said there weren't any units. Just none you directly control and micromanage.
The way it's stated does indicate there will not be units: "the absence of units" etc. would mean there are no units that move around on the map. If there were, but the AI controlled them all, then it would make more sense to write, "the AI controls all the units that move on the map" or something like that. I'm curious to see how they will make it look when there is a war happening.
 
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The way it's stated does indicate there will not be units: "the absence of units" etc. would mean there are no units that move around on the map. If there were, but the AI controlled them all, then it would make more sense to write, "the AI controls all the units that move on the map" or something like that. I'm curious to see how they will make it look when there is a war happening.
You forgot the second part of that clause. "the absence of units you move on the map" That does not necessarily imply there are no units entirely, just no units that you're moving from province to province. There are probably still units you're allocating to a front, just not allocating to individual provinces yourself.
 
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TinWiz

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Not to overly belabor the sentence, but after all that's what we're doing: if there are units that move on the map with any player input at all, then "absence of units you move" would be technically incorrect.
 
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Cpt. Fabri

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You forgot the second part of that clause. "the absence of units you move on the map" That does not necessarily imply there are no units entirely, just no units that you're moving from province to province. There are probably still units you're allocating to a front, just not allocating to individual provinces yourself.

In fact I'd say the way "units" will evolve is from napoleonic "regiments" up to "divisions" through tech that you will assign to each strategic area/theater. Hell maybe you'll be able to customize each division eventually to a degree. With the "combat width" being also represented in each region. Even mobility, the higher it is the bigger the "area of influence" in the number of regions said regiment/division can work.

Really looking forward for next dev diary.
 
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Olaf Trygvasson

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Another victory for us crackpots. Well its a bold strategy, Cotton, that's for sure. War is one of the biggest parts of any PDX game so I hope that this is executed well. I am nervous about how this will be, though, considering how far a departure it is from every other PDX title. That being said, my hopes are high.

Also...
>67 pages of replies and counting
Holy shit guys
 
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MTGian

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Here is a thought that I have had for a while, but not done a good job articulating. What if we think of a front as an army unit? It is just an army unit that covers one or more provinces and that you directly assign rather than move around the map willy nilly.

That is how I have been thinking this system could work. Instead of building 5 single province army units, then moving them across the map into position to create a line, you just build a front that stretches across the 5 provinces.

At worst, even if Paradox doesn't agree with this interpretation, couldn't modders do this? If people who are terrified think about it this way, does that help? Because to me, if this is what ends up being implemented, this is really not that different from the traditional system.
 

Yevheniya

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No, people just do not want to takeover Poland as Germany for the 85th time. I played EU IV for 4600 Hours - how can I do that with only Major Nations? I fully require Victoria 3 to be as replayable otherwise it is not up to standard. Hoi IV devs began to give new focus trees to minor nations because the metrics showed more and more people playing them anyway.
Hey man, maybe this game just isn’t for you.
 
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DrrD

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You know, maybe we should wait for more details before coming to any conclusions. And trust the developer team more. Let's assume it will be good unless and until proved otherwise by subsequent diaries. At this point there is simply not enough info to conclude either way.
 
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