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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #22 - The Concept of War

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Hello and welcome to another Victoria 3 development diary! Today’s dev diary has been a hotly anticipated one, as we’re finally ready to start talking about war and combat and how they will work in Victoria 3.

So then, how does war and combat work? The answer is that we’ve taken a pretty different approach to warfare and combat in Victoria 3 compared to other Paradox Grand Strategy Games, and in this dev diary I’ll be going over the overall vision that governs our design for warfare, with the actual nitty-gritty on the mechanics coming over the next few weeks. Just as Victoria 3 itself has a set of design pillars that all game mechanics follow (as outlined in the very first diary), Warfare in Victoria 3 has its own design pillars, which we will now explain in turn.

The first pillar is one that is shared with the vision of the game as a whole: War is a Continuation of Diplomacy - anything you can gain through war should also be possible to gain through diplomacy. As we’ve already talked about this multiple times in the past, and last week’s dev diary told you all about Diplomatic Plays, we don’t feel the need to go into this again, but it’s still important to keep in mind to understand our approach to warfare.

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The second pillar, War is Strategic, is exactly what it sounds like. In Victoria 3, all decisions you make regarding warfare are on the strategic level, not the tactical. What this means is that you do not move units directly on the map, or make decisions about which exact units should be initiating battle where. Instead of being unit-in-province-based, warfare in Victoria 3 is focused on supplying and allocating troops to frontlines between you and your enemies. The decisions you make during war are about matters such as what front you send your generals to and what overall strategy they should be following there. If this sounds like a radical departure from the norm in Paradox GSGs, that’s because it is, and I’ll be talking more about the rationale at the end of this dev diary.

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The third pillar, War is Costly, is all about the cost of war - political, economic and humanitarian. There is no such thing as a bloodless war in Victoria 3, as just the act of mobilizing your army will immediately start accruing casualties from accident and disease (as these were and remain the biggest killers of men during war, not battles) in addition to being an immense financial burden for your country. The soldiers and conscripts who die during war leave behind children and widows, and may even become dependents themselves as a result of injuries sustained during your quest for national glory.

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The fourth pillar, Preparation is Key, ties heavily into the second and third pillars. Much of the strategic decision making in Victoria 3 that will let you win wars are all about how well prepared you are. For example: Have you promoted the most competent generals, or were you forced to promote an incompetent wastrel for political expedience? Have you invested in the best (but very costly) rifles for your soldiers, or are you forced to fight at a technological disadvantage? During the Diplomatic Play preceding the war, did you mobilize all your armies in time and eat the costs in men and materiel, or did you hold off hoping on a peaceful resolution, or at least for the conflict to end up as a limited war? Did you choose to build and subsidize an arms industry large enough to cover your wartime needs, or is your army reliant on import of weapons that may be vulnerable to enemy shipping disruptions? These are the sort of questions that can decide who has the true advantage when going into an armed conflict in Victoria 3.

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The fifth pillar, Navies Matter, is an ambition of ours that for many countries, navies should feel just as important (and in some cases more important) as armies. In addition to supporting or hindering overseas expeditions (by, for example, cutting off enemy supply lines), navies play a crucial role in waging economic warfare, as a country whose economy (or even worse, military goods supply) depends on trade will be vulnerable to the actions of hostile navies.

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The sixth and final pillar, War Changes, is all about the technological advances of the 19th century and the way that warfare changed from the maneuvering of post-napoleonic armies to the meat grinder that was World War One. Our ambition is for these changes to be felt in the gameplay of Victoria 3, as technologies such as the machine gun makes warfare an ever bloodier and costlier affair while advancements in naval technology makes it easier for countries with advanced navies to project global power.

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Before I end this dev diary, I want to talk briefly about our most radical departure from other Paradox GSGs - the absence of units you move on the map, and why we chose to go in this direction. The main reason is simply that Victoria 3 is a game primarily focused on Economy, Diplomacy and Politics and we felt a more strategic approach to warfare mechanics fits the game better than micro-intensive tactical maneuvering.

It’s important to note that how this works differs completely from having AI-controlled units in our other GSGs, since in Victoria 3 armies you assign armies to fronts rather than provinces (navies of course work differently, but more on that later). We’ll be getting into the exact details of the mechanics for both armies and navies in the coming weeks.

We of course still want Victoria 3 to have interesting and meaningful warfare mechanics, but we want the player to be engaging on a higher level of decision-making, making decisions about the overall war strategy and just how much they’re willing to sacrifice to achieve their goals rather than deciding which exact battalions should be battling it out in which exact province next.

This also ties into the general costliness of wars and the fact that you can achieve your ends through diplomacy - we want the ways in which an outmatched Victoria 3 player triumphs over their enemies to be clever diplomacy, well-planned logistics and rational strategic thinking rather than brilliant generalship. Ultimately, we’ve taken this approach to warfare for the same reason we take any game design decision: because we believe that it will make Victoria 3 a better game.

With that said, we’re done for today! We’ll of course be talking much more about warfare in the coming weeks, starting with next week’s dev diary on the topic of Fronts and Generals.
 
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All things aside, allow me to just congratulate the devs on taking the risks needed to make the game true to their vision. Risk aversion is a growing problem as studios get larger and budgets increase, making things more formulaic and stale. And the system as described certainly does seem to fit the spirit of the game as well as the label "grand strategy" in general. Bravo!

That said, I do have some reservations about whether it will actually be fun, but I will happily keep an open mind until we get more details.
Ultimately, of course, a game ought to be about fun, not ideology, so I do hope the devs would be willing to bring back tactical control IF the new system ends up not being as fun as hoped.

Yep, I aswell hope they'll implement a switch IF they notice that the player base wants micro, which is a factor for a certain majority. The other titles all combine macro and micro and reducing everything to macro could be extremely boring. Some people might find that fun, especially the "I don't want to get outmicroed by 13 year olds" faction (quoting someone here), but from my experience micro is in general a huge popularity factor and fun generator in these kind of titles.
 
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Delegating your units at war is challenging yes, as it should be! Enemy units are ignored as long they don't endanger my wargoal, as indeed the focus in necessary also on other aspects.
Sounds good in theory. But in reality it doesn't.
The AI is sending 5 or 6 armies into your country everyone 3 or 5k strong occupying your provinces, crippling your economy.
The AI can do it simultaneously you have to send your army in on your own, chase the enemy armies, click on the right micro second in order to avoid or catch the enemy army.
It is in every game.
So it isn't challenging. I can mange in the end, but it is annoying, it's grinding, that's the equivalent of mobile games gathering wood in ordr to build a stable.
The new mechanics system """needs""" to have some flaws, so a skilled player can outmaneuver ai during war times, which likely could be impossible with a new system that doesn't allow micro and only strategical macro management (which most of the other titles combine in some form).
Why? This is something I really don't like. That the outcome of the war is decided by your aibilty to issue a move order on the right time. I'd rather fight wars which outcome is more decided by the decisions I made prior where economy and technology of my country is concerned.
Why would I need the outcome of a war to be decided by moving a chesspiece on the map and a lucky throw of the dice?
Yep, I aswell hope they'll implement a switch IF they notice that the player base wants micro, which is a factor for a certain majority.
I'm not sure I agree with your estimate that a majority wants micro management of units. A plurality, maybe a majority. No.
 
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Why? This is something I really don't like. That the outcome of the war is decided by your aibilty to issue a move order on the right time. I'd rather fight wars which outcome is more decided by the decisions I made prior where economy and technology of my country is concerned.
Why would I need the outcome of a war to be decided by moving a chesspiece on the map and a lucky throw of the dice?

I'm not sure I agree with your estimate that a majority wants micro management of units. A plurality, maybe a majority. No.

1) First aswell tech, war preparation, move orders, etc. are all factors in previous pdx games, that combine MACRO and MICRO to win a war. Maybe I'm not seeing their vicky 3 vision, but I personally don't see how more MACRO button clicking will create good and challenging gameplay. The moving of the chesspiece is the addition to all the previous planning done and then a dice is rolled (or better combat mechanics calculate the outcome of a single tile or tile to tile battle). Do you really think they won't role a dice in the new system to influence a combat outcome? You probably will get 20% dmg from clicking the plan offense and the enemy -20% supply from clicking the disturb logistics button. WOAH nice macro gameplay!

2) All the previous titles except imperator are very popular and contain micro as a major element. I think alot forum warriors despise micro, but on the field the people that are dedicated to sp and mp like or love it. MP lives from outsmarting and outmaneuvering your opponent on single conntected tiles in battle and not from clicking the "plan offense" button and then watching some background calculation determing if you win an automatically started frontline assault or not.
 
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Sounds good in theory. But in reality it doesn't.
The AI is sending 5 or 6 armies into your country everyone 3 or 5k strong occupying your provinces, crippling your economy.
The AI can do it simultaneously you have to send your army in on your own, chase the enemy armies, click on the right micro second in order to avoid or catch the enemy army.
It is in every game.
So it isn't challenging. I can mange in the end, but it is annoying, it's grinding, that's the equivalent of mobile games gathering wood in ordr to build a stable.
This is why a reserve is kept (hopefully) behind to deal with that. Yeah it is annoying and partly frustrating, which is accurate (in history) as gentleman agreements are at war only optional. Speaking of options having one to automize miltary, economy, diplomacy or espionage would be awesome then learning the game mechanics.
 
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I think alot forum warriors despise micro
There's interesting micro and tedious micro.

From my perspective (I've never played Paradox titles MP and probably never will; my taste in online MP is more inclined towards MMOs and co-op looter shooters), warfare in Paradox titles frequently involves a lot more tedious micro than it does interesting micro – and the more detailed the map gets, the more that balance shifts towards tedium.

The thing I'm most excited about, of course, is that the removal of pushing toy soldiers around means that dealing with rebels will not involve using my toy soldiers as the mallet in a game of whackamole. (I got kinda sick of the whackamole elements of EU/Vic army manoeuvres back in the late EU3 days, owing to having done EU3 Westernization multiple times. That was eight years ago and the rebel uprising sound FX still sets my teeth on edge.)
 
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Personally I think unit micromanagement can be fun, but only if I play as a minor or medium power where I can focus on a single area. Late game wars in Victoria 2 for me were quite impossible to manage, now with this new system I am confident to be finally able to enjoy playing as a great power like Britain, with a large empire in which the armed forces are simultaneously engaged in various far-flung fronts.

One thing I hope about this new system is the presence of some sort of Order of Battle the player can interact with, I would greatly enjoy some kind of HOI3-style structural organization of brigades, divisions and armies that could in this case make effective use of this new strategic automated system.
 
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Seriously, the only thing for every gangsta that comes here to spit "muh you just lack mad skillz" that I can think of is. 1v1 in AOE4 ye nerds. Let's be honest here, the "micro" in every PDX game is a joke that pales in comparison of a true RTS, PDX mp is about who is the one that cheeses the most, plain and simple.
 
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Do you really think they won't role a dice in the new system to influence a combat outcome? You probably will get 20% dmg from clicking the plan offense and the enemy -20% supply from clicking the disturb logistics button. WOAH nice macro gameplay!
Of course there will be still Dicerolls. RNG is still going to be a thing.
All the previous titles except imperator are very popular and contain micro as a major element. I think alot forum warriors despise micro, but on the field the people that are dedicated to sp and mp like or love it.
Doubt it. Thus far not moving units around had never been a thing in PDX games. It was just something that was in the game, but I really doubt that it was as loved as you imply.
MP lives from outsmarting and outmaneuvering your opponent on single conntected tiles in battle and not from clicking the "plan offense" button and then watching some background calculation determing if you win an automatically started frontline assault or not.
Again yes and now. Still the MPs I've played had never been fun in a way who clicked faster than the other. Especially MPs are horrible if you are a single player against 2 other players. This resulted in you being killed off quickly or such stupid rules like no more than X player of Y power shall be in a war and so on, in order to make it fair.
Don't tell me it thrills you as a MP to fight of 3 human players ganging up together in order to kill you.
 
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There's interesting micro and tedious micro.

From my perspective (I've never played Paradox titles MP and probably never will; my taste in online MP is more inclined towards MMOs and co-op looter shooters), warfare in Paradox titles frequently involves a lot more tedious micro than it does interesting micro – and the more detailed the map gets, the more that balance shifts towards tedium.

The thing I'm most excited about, of course, is that the removal of pushing toy soldiers around means that dealing with rebels will not involve using my toy soldiers as the mallet in a game of whackamole. (I got kinda sick of the whackamole elements of EU/Vic army manoeuvres back in the late EU3 days, owing to having done EU3 Westernization multiple times. That was eight years ago and the rebel uprising sound FX still sets my teeth on edge.)
That's a personal opinion I do understand. I've been around in the sp and mp community for a long time and the micro is one of key factors in mp that keeps people on the ball, which you might not comprehend due to missing experience and interaction with community itself. These are the people that spend countless hours in a title refining their macro and micro skills and not just play 60h and then never touch it again. I bet your will just crumble in mp due to never really learning what moving around toy soldiers means and how the mechanics work ;) Moving around self created armies is a vital and intriguing RTS component missing in especially round based strategy games. For your rebel problem in eu there is even a qol feature that does it automatic micro, but you still need keep the marco under control.

Macro button clicking just get's boring at some point, especially when a content loop is reached, all pdx titles contain that to some extend and micro is a spice that helps extend the pleasure, but if you like simple clicking and watching without much interaction I do respect your opinion.
 
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I bet your will just crumble in mp
Duh.

I'm not interested in playing at speed 2 in peacetime or speed-2-and-no-pause-button in wartime, so of course I'd get handed my backside on a platter in MP.
 
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Doubt it. Thus far not moving units around had never been a thing in PDX games. It was just something that was in the game, but I really doubt that it was as loved as you imply.

Again yes and now. Still the MPs I've played had never been fun in a way who clicked faster than the other. Especially MPs are horrible if you are a single player against 2 other players. This resulted in you being killed off quickly or such stupid rules like no more than X player of Y power shall be in a war and so on, in order to make it fair.
Don't tell me it thrills you as a MP to fight of 3 human players ganging up together in order to kill you.

1) Moving around units is a major RTS feature in these games. Doubt as much as you want, but I hope the revelation will come soon. Clicking in combination with knowing when and where to click is a combination of skill and knowledge. Some people reduce it to simple faster clicking, but that is heavily tied to good decision making and a high reaction time.

2) Then you might have joined the wrong communities and games, maybe only all welcome? If you play mp, like eu4 or hoi4 rp diplo is a major factor, not just clicking a button to improve relations, so if you get ganked by several people I can only recommend that you should have made some friends and allies beforehand, respectively learn the "art of the deal".
If PDX doesn't balance their games then rules and mods need to fix that especially for mp to create a healty surrounding for growing communities. Do you expect Vicky 3 will suddenly have an ingame rule that you can't be ganked by 2+ other nations?
I've seen a enough tenseful fights that ended in the underdog winning due to better macro, micro and diplo, which probably were one of the most exciting moments in these game sessions. It just feels good when your stronger opponents crumble because you outsmart them with micro and not just get wrecked because they macro clicked more mp and resources to a frontline.
 
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Macro button clicking just get's boring at some point, especially when a content loop is reached, all pdx titles contain that to some extend and micro is a spice that helps extend the pleasure, but if you like simple clicking and watching without much interaction I do respect your opinion.

Badly design systems get boring at some point, it doesn't matter if they are micro or macro. I play almost every RTS, DOTA, Sport Manager, Grand Strategy or City Builder I can get my hands on. Even weird mixes like Kenshi which is a great example of a RPG that works nicely with a macro combat system. Some work, some don't. The simple answer is that a game is the whole sum of it's parts.

Why did Imperator flop despite sharing many of the systems of every single PDX game?
 
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Moving around units is a major RTS feature in these games.
It was until now.
Doubt as much as you want, but I hope the revelation will come soon.
Not going to change. V3 will be released without the old war mechanics. Don't waste your energy fighting this decision. They won't change that system for release. They might rethink it for later Patches and DLC but we will get a game without that feature.
Then you might have joined the wrong communities and games, maybe only all welcome? If you play mp, like eu4 or hoi4 rp diplo is a major factor, not just clicking a button to improve relations, so if you get ganked by several people I can only recommend that you should have made some friends and allies beforehand, respectively learn the "art of the deal".
Oh I have but whats the point after you've reached a certain size you become the enemy and no matter how friendly you are you will be attacked and have the problem.
 
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Badly design systems get boring at some point, it doesn't matter if they are micro or macro. I play almost every RTS, DOTA, Sport Manager, Grand Strategy or City Builder I can get my hands on. Even weird mixes like Kenshi which is a great example of a RPG that works nicely with a macro combat system. Some work, some don't. The simple answer is that a game is the whole sum of it's parts.

Why did Imperator flop despite sharing many of the systems of every single PDX game?

I played imperator single and multiplayer from the start and for the game to kick off it took alot of time, in the end it got good, but the damage was already done by the development process and release state. I don't know if you recall that, but partly the mechanics were completely overhauled. The base game was just not fun to play and lacked alot of content with unpleasing surrounding mechanics. The military unit system was probably one of the better features at release.
 
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It was until now.

Not going to change. V3 will be released without the old war mechanics. Don't waste your energy fighting this decision. They won't change that system for release. They might rethink it for later Patches and DLC but we will get a game without that feature.

Oh I have but whats the point after you've reached a certain size you become the enemy and no matter how friendly you are you will be attacked and have the problem.

1) If they replace the feature with a better base I for sure support that, but I kinda doubt it. If they need to re-patch the feature in it is pdx money and reputation gone and worst case we will have another dead game like Imperator.

2) I don't know if you follow your own argumentation, but your answer doen't make sense in the context of your own and my writing. Rather take whole sentence(and previous conversation) instead of parts and then make up your mind on that. Doesn't make sense!

3) Then don't make yourself the problem and rather start a narrative with an ally to take down your strong neighbour because he is the threat and not yourself
 
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I played imperator single and multiplayer from the start and for the game to kick off it took alot of time, in the end it got good, but the damage was already done by the development process and release state. I don't know if you recall that, but partly the mechanics were completely overhauled. The base game was just not fun to play and lacked alot of conent with unpleasing surrounding mechanics. The military unit system was probably one of the better features at release.

Well funny, all I can recall from several MP games was endless Merc spam. Both when it was released and in the later patches. The only redeeming feature was the pop system and how in theory you could cripple an enemy player with raiding. But, the snowball effect of a great power was probably the least balanced I've seen in any PDX title plus many other issues.

A game with micro, that was with all due respect a badly design one. That doesn't mean it would of work with a macro combat system but it shows how it doesn't mean is a deal breaker either. Because there are examples out there of MP games with not a single micro manage involved.

I'm not saying it will be properly done, but for starters this VIC3 concept opens the door not just to a strategic warfare but to better inclusion of intelligence (which has always been a terrible feature in every PDX game) in order to win a war or god forbid introduce a guerrilla layer aswell which has almost always been impossible to replicate with cores wandering around. Maybe having your country occupied by a greater power doesn't mean instant game over, occupation can be hazardous on itself with diplomacy and greater power intervention being a more deciding factor. The micro systems in this games has always added a game mechanic, but has also limited the games in many other areas.
 
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Well funny, all I can recall from several MP games was endless Merc spam. Both when it was released and in the later patches. The only redeeming feature was the pop system and how in theory you could cripple an enemy player with raiding. But, the snowball effect of a great power was probably the least balanced I've seen in any PDX title plus many other issues.

A game with micro, that was with all due respect a badly design one. That doesn't mean it would of work with a macro combat system but it shows how it doesn't mean is a deal breaker either. Because there are examples out there of MP games with not a single micro manage involved.

I'm not saying it will be properly done, but for starters this VIC3 concept opens the door not just to a strategic warfare but to better inclusion of intelligence (which has always been a terrible feature in every PDX game) in order to win a war or god forbid introduce a guerrilla layer aswell which has almost always been impossible to replicate with cores wandering around. Maybe having your country occupied by a greater power doesn't mean instant game over, occupation can be hazardous on itself with diplomacy and greater power intervention being a more deciding factor. The micro systems in this games has always added a game mechanic, but has also limited the games in many other areas.

If you can click auto siege and run in with a 5x larger stack for sure no micro is needed. We for example used a mod to not play in that unbalanced state, but that's not an exclusive imperator problem and can be found across the whole different titles. There wouldn't be the need for mp mods if the base games won't be broken in some sense and fixable by rules.
 

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After reading diplomacy aproach with rising interest, this is a real bummer. Unit management is by default my favorite part in a grand strategy/4x game, seeing "ai" doing this only a cause for my anger. Reducing it to just some button clicking sounds boring to me...
I can understand being disappointed at them removing or reworking your favourite part of the game. Perfectly understandable. But I really would advise waiting for the next few Dec diaries and then deciding. You have all the time in the world to buy or not buy it, so it's best to just wait and see for now.
 
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It’s outrageous, egregious, preposterous! Or maybe even brilliant!

On one side, big risk making a move that will probably turn away a lot of players who are more into the tactical aspects of war... Big risk.

On the other side, abstracting war makes a lot of sense for this time frame. The logistic, tactical and strategic aspects of warfare are already too complex to implement in a simplified way...

Tough decision...
 
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