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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #22 - The Concept of War

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Hello and welcome to another Victoria 3 development diary! Today’s dev diary has been a hotly anticipated one, as we’re finally ready to start talking about war and combat and how they will work in Victoria 3.

So then, how does war and combat work? The answer is that we’ve taken a pretty different approach to warfare and combat in Victoria 3 compared to other Paradox Grand Strategy Games, and in this dev diary I’ll be going over the overall vision that governs our design for warfare, with the actual nitty-gritty on the mechanics coming over the next few weeks. Just as Victoria 3 itself has a set of design pillars that all game mechanics follow (as outlined in the very first diary), Warfare in Victoria 3 has its own design pillars, which we will now explain in turn.

The first pillar is one that is shared with the vision of the game as a whole: War is a Continuation of Diplomacy - anything you can gain through war should also be possible to gain through diplomacy. As we’ve already talked about this multiple times in the past, and last week’s dev diary told you all about Diplomatic Plays, we don’t feel the need to go into this again, but it’s still important to keep in mind to understand our approach to warfare.

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The second pillar, War is Strategic, is exactly what it sounds like. In Victoria 3, all decisions you make regarding warfare are on the strategic level, not the tactical. What this means is that you do not move units directly on the map, or make decisions about which exact units should be initiating battle where. Instead of being unit-in-province-based, warfare in Victoria 3 is focused on supplying and allocating troops to frontlines between you and your enemies. The decisions you make during war are about matters such as what front you send your generals to and what overall strategy they should be following there. If this sounds like a radical departure from the norm in Paradox GSGs, that’s because it is, and I’ll be talking more about the rationale at the end of this dev diary.

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The third pillar, War is Costly, is all about the cost of war - political, economic and humanitarian. There is no such thing as a bloodless war in Victoria 3, as just the act of mobilizing your army will immediately start accruing casualties from accident and disease (as these were and remain the biggest killers of men during war, not battles) in addition to being an immense financial burden for your country. The soldiers and conscripts who die during war leave behind children and widows, and may even become dependents themselves as a result of injuries sustained during your quest for national glory.

dd22-3.png

The fourth pillar, Preparation is Key, ties heavily into the second and third pillars. Much of the strategic decision making in Victoria 3 that will let you win wars are all about how well prepared you are. For example: Have you promoted the most competent generals, or were you forced to promote an incompetent wastrel for political expedience? Have you invested in the best (but very costly) rifles for your soldiers, or are you forced to fight at a technological disadvantage? During the Diplomatic Play preceding the war, did you mobilize all your armies in time and eat the costs in men and materiel, or did you hold off hoping on a peaceful resolution, or at least for the conflict to end up as a limited war? Did you choose to build and subsidize an arms industry large enough to cover your wartime needs, or is your army reliant on import of weapons that may be vulnerable to enemy shipping disruptions? These are the sort of questions that can decide who has the true advantage when going into an armed conflict in Victoria 3.

dd22-4.png

The fifth pillar, Navies Matter, is an ambition of ours that for many countries, navies should feel just as important (and in some cases more important) as armies. In addition to supporting or hindering overseas expeditions (by, for example, cutting off enemy supply lines), navies play a crucial role in waging economic warfare, as a country whose economy (or even worse, military goods supply) depends on trade will be vulnerable to the actions of hostile navies.

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The sixth and final pillar, War Changes, is all about the technological advances of the 19th century and the way that warfare changed from the maneuvering of post-napoleonic armies to the meat grinder that was World War One. Our ambition is for these changes to be felt in the gameplay of Victoria 3, as technologies such as the machine gun makes warfare an ever bloodier and costlier affair while advancements in naval technology makes it easier for countries with advanced navies to project global power.

dd22-6.png

Before I end this dev diary, I want to talk briefly about our most radical departure from other Paradox GSGs - the absence of units you move on the map, and why we chose to go in this direction. The main reason is simply that Victoria 3 is a game primarily focused on Economy, Diplomacy and Politics and we felt a more strategic approach to warfare mechanics fits the game better than micro-intensive tactical maneuvering.

It’s important to note that how this works differs completely from having AI-controlled units in our other GSGs, since in Victoria 3 armies you assign armies to fronts rather than provinces (navies of course work differently, but more on that later). We’ll be getting into the exact details of the mechanics for both armies and navies in the coming weeks.

We of course still want Victoria 3 to have interesting and meaningful warfare mechanics, but we want the player to be engaging on a higher level of decision-making, making decisions about the overall war strategy and just how much they’re willing to sacrifice to achieve their goals rather than deciding which exact battalions should be battling it out in which exact province next.

This also ties into the general costliness of wars and the fact that you can achieve your ends through diplomacy - we want the ways in which an outmatched Victoria 3 player triumphs over their enemies to be clever diplomacy, well-planned logistics and rational strategic thinking rather than brilliant generalship. Ultimately, we’ve taken this approach to warfare for the same reason we take any game design decision: because we believe that it will make Victoria 3 a better game.

With that said, we’re done for today! We’ll of course be talking much more about warfare in the coming weeks, starting with next week’s dev diary on the topic of Fronts and Generals.
 
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Смело, товарищи!

Flaws common for such a radical changes could be fixed over years of game-cycle, but as a srategic design-decission this model is invaluable.
More diversity into PGS-series — always appreciated.

Never waited for the next diaries so eagerly.
 
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Vic3 devs cost shareholders 10% of their assets.
Is that a surprise? I mean, they have probably 6-8 active gamelines as a company, plus you need some room for overhead, shared services, etc.

Yes, Vic3 is expensive. Most games are. That's why they want it to be good, not dragged down by the same useless military system that has plagued their other games.
 
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View attachment 771008
Vic3 devs cost shareholders 10% of their assets. Nothing is wrong if you disagree you will be silenced and bombarded.
LOL just wait until the game flops harder then imperator appealing to singleplayer really helped you guys there.
still no chat function in imperator and ck3 I wonder why they have no multiplayer communities. Everyone knows alienating your
most consistent and loyal customers for no discernable reason but you dont play the game the same exact way as you is ok because
they are only 20% of the playerbase. Every success business on earth is founded upon excluding potential clients.
LOL that you think that was because of the Dev Diary.
 
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Is that a surprise? I mean, they have probably 6-8 active gamelines as a company, plus you need some room for overhead, shared services, etc.

Yes, Vic3 is expensive. Most games are. That's why they want it to be good, not dragged down by the same useless military system that has plagued their other games.
He's referring to the dip in the stock price between Wednesday and today. I do not know why he is obsessed with Paradox's stock price.
 
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Is that a surprise? I mean, they have probably 6-8 active gamelines as a company, plus you need some room for overhead, shared services, etc.

Yes, Vic3 is expensive. Most games are. That's why they want it to be good, not dragged down by the same useless military system that has plagued their other games.
POV you use ai frontlines on hoi4 and death stack in vic2
 
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How can you be excited about this, are you so unskilled that you don't want to micro your units or are you just tired of the core gameplay of every GSG that Paradox made? Unit micro has been in every GSG that paradox has made and it's always fun to interact with it, it's where you can show your skill at country building and personal decision making for where units should and shouldn't go. There's a lot more to be said, but I'll keep it short here.

Maybe many people think like me, wantting the game to be really different than the other pdx games.

IMHO the more they differ the better. Because I want very different experiences from different games.

We already have the moving-units system in all other games. If we want to play it we can go for them, now we will have something when we dont want to pay attention to units.

I remember when I:R came out most people complained because of being board game-like and having mana. I liked the 1st versions of the game, because I like EU4 a lot. But the last version is incredibly more enjoyable to me, because more alien to EU4.

I remember people on I:R forum asking for devs to implement CK-like characters to "save" the game, and I answering "if you want to be a babysitter of game characters just play CK, let's let I:R be something different".

I think the same applies here. Let's let Vic3 be something different, something new.

Unfortunately for I:R nothing could save it from the bad releasing. Because many people in the DDs already pointed out they wanted different systems, for a less EU4-like gameplay. It presented different systems and features too late.

For Vic3 I am not affraid of that, because the game as far as we know will focus exactly in what most people want and ask for. I took a look now at the reaction to this DD. Most are "greens", "blues" and "loving faces". Less than 20% are "reds". I think here is where you are wrong. Not a matter of opinion, but being objectively wrong. You said "unit micro... is where you can show your skills at country building". Quite the opposite. It is where you show your skills at tactical decisions, nothing to do with country building. In the moving-units system someone great at microing battles can be really terrible at managing the country and still beat much richer and better organized tags. In Vic3 being good on the economical, political and organizational aspects will finally be important.

Maybe the lack of units kills the potential of MP, as some people are already afraid of. But maybe it creates a new comunity of MP players made of economics and social science nerds, less akin to fast-paced decisions of real-time game battles. Who knows?

Speaking extrictly for me Im quite optimistic.
 
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Right on!

I'm with you.

I have no idea what all this talk is about the

"Crackpot Theory"


(but I've got theories!)
 
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View attachment 771008
Vic3 devs cost shareholders 10% of their assets. Nothing is wrong if you disagree you will be silenced and bombarded.
LOL just wait until the game flops harder then imperator appealing to singleplayer really helped you guys there.
still no chat function in imperator and ck3 I wonder why they have no multiplayer communities. Everyone knows alienating your
most consistent and loyal customers for no discernable reason but you dont play the game the same exact way as you is ok because
they are only 20% of the playerbase. Every success business on earth is founded upon excluding potential clients.

Somehow, I doubt this is due to a dev diary that have been only published a day ago. I also seriously doubt that most of the investors have read this thread. Nor would they sell their shares on a single thread in this forum. I think you need to give investors a much more credit than that. It is more likely due to other factors that have nothing to do with this dev diary and its reception thereafter. It is a pure coincidence, nothing more.

Furthermore, I noticed that you have been talking shit about just about almost every Paradox games you claimed to have played in this entire thread, based on your posting history that I have viewed. In just about every post you have made within this thread. The only question I have in mind is that, if you really disliked Paradox games that much, then why would you bother reading this thread? Why are you even here?

I also noticed that you seemed gleeful (see: "LOL") in every criticism you have made, some of them which appear to be based nothing but assumptions (e.g. accusing a Paradox team of "laziness") or lacked evidence to back them up. Indeed, you even seem to be gleeful at the thought of Victoria 3 being a flop or that the investors were allegedly selling their shares supposedly based on the negative reactions in this thread. Moreover, you have also belittled other posters here, claiming they don't play enough or don't play it right. You appear to be trying to keep arguing with others so that you could get your last words in. It is almost as though you believe yourself to be superior to others. That or you are just trying too hard to make others dislike you. I cannot help but wonder if you are truly here to troll, riling up others.

Unless you have something constructive to say here, please don't bother.
 
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I am so happy with this design decision! We’re taking the roles of kings and presidents, who don’t move chess pieces about the board. We’re building a nation.
 
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If the price didnt drop a day after widespread condemnation and backlash to changes in a massive part of their flagship game (this is a video game company btw) that would be a miracle. Not a single person i have or actively have played paradox games with has a positive opinion about this change. They are only hopeful that it doesnt ruin the game.

also LOL cant wait for my hoi4 airzone combat to be ported into vic3 land combat

"LOL that you think EA stock price dropped because of loot boxes we all know backlash to products has no bearing on the possible success of a company"
Little know fact, but investors are glued to PDX-adjacent Discord servers.
 
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View attachment 771008
Vic3 devs cost shareholders 10% of their assets. Nothing is wrong if you disagree you will be silenced and bombarded.
LOL just wait until the game flops harder then imperator appealing to singleplayer really helped you guys there.
still no chat function in imperator and ck3 I wonder why they have no multiplayer communities. Everyone knows alienating your
most consistent and loyal customers for no discernable reason but you dont play the game the same exact way as you is ok because
they are only 20% of the playerbase. Every success business on earth is founded upon excluding potential clients.
It's amazing how much tunnel vision people get around something as ultimately economically frivolous as a luxury computer game.
 
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I'm curious to see where this takes the game. Hopefully a less directed (dare I say simplified) approach will, if nothing else, make the AI better at warfare. That being said, I'm also hopeful the backlash will temper the hype and make the realization that pdx wasn't working on this game since the moment vicky 2 released come before everyone buys the game and gets mad that it's not perfect in every way. Naturally, this experimental approach shouldn't be a free pass to put out something unplayable, but given how far off we are from release, I'm sure it can't be that bad.
 

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If the price didnt drop a day after widespread condemnation and backlash to changes in a massive part of their flagship game (this is a video game company btw) that would be a miracle. Not a single person i have or actively have played paradox games with has a positive opinion about this change. They are only hopeful that it doesnt ruin the game.

also LOL cant wait for my hoi4 airzone combat to be ported into vic3 land combat

"LOL that you think EA stock price dropped because of loot boxes we all know backlash to products has no bearing on the possible success of a company"

I can appreciate that some people are upset and the forums are a cathartic way to get that out of their system. However, I do find it a little bit annoying when the same people make similar comments again and again and again. We get it. You are not happy. We got it 20 posts ago. This isn't an evolving discussion where we are digging into what makes you unhappy to try to really discover the heart of the problem. This isn't a discussion of the specific mechanics that will be in the game and why they don't work for you. This is just you lashing out again and again saying hyperbolic things that are often untrue (widespread condemnation and basklash? the vote count for the thread is vast majority positive) because you are upset. I am sorry, but at a certain point, you come across as throwing a bit of a tantrum. Maybe you don't care, but that is how you appear to me. As a young person throwing a tantrum. If you don't care how you come across, then that is fine, but I thought you should know. The same goes for the few others doing the same thing.
 
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We can't pull off the Battle of Isandlwana, which was the Zulu King against a more industrial foe, the British. So basically, in this marco system of logistics and numbers, a smaller nation can't pull off victories or win a morale victory.
You seem so certain of that, so let's see how certain!

I am willing to publically bet that within one week of Victoria III being released, provided it works on my computer I will have done exactly what you are so confident can't be done in this system (win a battle or war as a smaller nation against a larger one, without benefit of much greater technology), and I will be able to post screenshots to prove it.

If I'm wrong, I will not only publically admit I was wrong and you and the rest of the Army Man Brigade was right, I will donate $100 to a charity of your choosing. But if I can do it, you have to admit in the thread that you were wrong and apologise for jumping to conclusions and engaging in rampant hyperbole.

What a deal, right? I'm not even demanding you donate money! You have literally nothing to lose, and of course, you are 100% certain that it will be JUST as bad and simplistic as you keep insisting it will be, right?

So, what do you say? Willing to put no money where your mouth is?
 
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If the price didnt drop a day after widespread condemnation and backlash to changes in a massive part of their flagship game (this is a video game company btw) that would be a miracle.
"You and your friends" doesn't equal "widespread". There's been at least as much positive feedback as negative about this idea.

More importantly though, Victoria is not their flagship game. Not even close. That would probably be Crusader Kings, or possibly Hearts of Iron. In fact it doesn't even make the top four in prominence or sales either here, or on Steam. (In addition to CK and HoI, it's handily beaten by Europa Universalis and Stellaris.)

No worries though if it continues like this none of us will even be playing paradox games so there will be nothing to argue about.
1636162910904.png
Now this is just hilarious. To defend your preferred military system, you're bringing up the poor performance of a game that used that system! If anything, this should be evidence to Paradox that their previous combat system was trash. (Though to be clear, I wouldn't take it as strong evidence either way.)
 
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I called planetary invasions in stellaris and ai hoi4 frontlines badly implemented and unimaginative and you call that talking shit on almost every paradox game (and mechanic by association i guess??). LOL im so sorry I burst your bubble bro. No worries though if it continues like this none of us will even be playing paradox games so there will be nothing to argue about.
View attachment 771066
I am happy that the people financing this project will at least be able to recoup their investments with the initial sales. I feel sorry for the layman and workers that are eventually gonna lose their work from the constant failures to produce modern engaging content. Literally definition of insanity. just continue to listen to your little forums hugbox as your player bases dwindle and your reputation sours.
It's getting incredibly ironic how people continually bring up Imperator as a warning example, when in fact Imperator is a warning example of Paradox keeping with the same old flawed system (mana; player-controlled unit-in-province movement) out of pure inertia, instead of taking the effort to reconsider whether that system is actually a good mechanic and beneficial to the game, and doing something different in order to innovate instead. Bringing up Imperator actually harms their argument more than it helps because it puts the player-controlled unit-in-province in the exact same position as the mana defenders.
 
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Little know fact, but investors are glued to PDX-adjacent Discord servers.
If the market was to glean anything from the DD, the lack of screenies could suggest that the game is farther from release than anticipated, and along with rising interest rates, increasing the discount on future profits.
 
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View attachment 771008
Vic3 devs cost shareholders 10% of their assets. Nothing is wrong if you disagree you will be silenced and bombarded.
LOL just wait until the game flops harder then imperator appealing to singleplayer really helped you guys there.
still no chat function in imperator and ck3 I wonder why they have no multiplayer communities. Everyone knows alienating your
most consistent and loyal customers for no discernable reason but you dont play the game the same exact way as you is ok because
they are only 20% of the playerbase. Every success business on earth is founded upon excluding potential clients.
Man just take a deep breath, you haven't even seen how it's gonna work. Their stock didn't fall because of a dev diary...and btw it's 7.5%, not 10%, and this sort of volatility for a super richly valued high multiple stock is pretty normal. The period since the dev diary is like the last 1mm of this chart. Relax.

1636168641585.png
 
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You seem so certain of that, so let's see how certain!

I am willing to publically bet that within one week of Victoria III being released, provided it works on my computer I will have done exactly what you are so confident can't be done in this system (win a battle or war as a smaller nation against a larger one, without benefit of much greater technology), and I will be able to post screenshots to prove it.

If I'm wrong, I will not only publically admit I was wrong and you and the rest of the Army Man Brigade was right, I will donate $100 to a charity of your choosing. But if I can do it, you have to admit in the thread that you were wrong and apologise for jumping to conclusions and engaging in rampant hyperbole.

What a deal, right? I'm not even demanding you donate money! You have literally nothing to lose, and of course, you are 100% certain that it will be JUST as bad and simplistic as you keep insisting it will be, right?

So, what do you say? Willing to put no money where your mouth is?

Or... or we could make the bet even more interesting by just having the loser fight a bear to the death with nothing but bare hands in Siberia. Uncle Putin can provide the bear. How about that? It would be a very entertaining spectacle. Could even televise it, too! Great idea, amirite?! ;) :p
 
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