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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #22 - The Concept of War

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Hello and welcome to another Victoria 3 development diary! Today’s dev diary has been a hotly anticipated one, as we’re finally ready to start talking about war and combat and how they will work in Victoria 3.

So then, how does war and combat work? The answer is that we’ve taken a pretty different approach to warfare and combat in Victoria 3 compared to other Paradox Grand Strategy Games, and in this dev diary I’ll be going over the overall vision that governs our design for warfare, with the actual nitty-gritty on the mechanics coming over the next few weeks. Just as Victoria 3 itself has a set of design pillars that all game mechanics follow (as outlined in the very first diary), Warfare in Victoria 3 has its own design pillars, which we will now explain in turn.

The first pillar is one that is shared with the vision of the game as a whole: War is a Continuation of Diplomacy - anything you can gain through war should also be possible to gain through diplomacy. As we’ve already talked about this multiple times in the past, and last week’s dev diary told you all about Diplomatic Plays, we don’t feel the need to go into this again, but it’s still important to keep in mind to understand our approach to warfare.

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The second pillar, War is Strategic, is exactly what it sounds like. In Victoria 3, all decisions you make regarding warfare are on the strategic level, not the tactical. What this means is that you do not move units directly on the map, or make decisions about which exact units should be initiating battle where. Instead of being unit-in-province-based, warfare in Victoria 3 is focused on supplying and allocating troops to frontlines between you and your enemies. The decisions you make during war are about matters such as what front you send your generals to and what overall strategy they should be following there. If this sounds like a radical departure from the norm in Paradox GSGs, that’s because it is, and I’ll be talking more about the rationale at the end of this dev diary.

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The third pillar, War is Costly, is all about the cost of war - political, economic and humanitarian. There is no such thing as a bloodless war in Victoria 3, as just the act of mobilizing your army will immediately start accruing casualties from accident and disease (as these were and remain the biggest killers of men during war, not battles) in addition to being an immense financial burden for your country. The soldiers and conscripts who die during war leave behind children and widows, and may even become dependents themselves as a result of injuries sustained during your quest for national glory.

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The fourth pillar, Preparation is Key, ties heavily into the second and third pillars. Much of the strategic decision making in Victoria 3 that will let you win wars are all about how well prepared you are. For example: Have you promoted the most competent generals, or were you forced to promote an incompetent wastrel for political expedience? Have you invested in the best (but very costly) rifles for your soldiers, or are you forced to fight at a technological disadvantage? During the Diplomatic Play preceding the war, did you mobilize all your armies in time and eat the costs in men and materiel, or did you hold off hoping on a peaceful resolution, or at least for the conflict to end up as a limited war? Did you choose to build and subsidize an arms industry large enough to cover your wartime needs, or is your army reliant on import of weapons that may be vulnerable to enemy shipping disruptions? These are the sort of questions that can decide who has the true advantage when going into an armed conflict in Victoria 3.

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The fifth pillar, Navies Matter, is an ambition of ours that for many countries, navies should feel just as important (and in some cases more important) as armies. In addition to supporting or hindering overseas expeditions (by, for example, cutting off enemy supply lines), navies play a crucial role in waging economic warfare, as a country whose economy (or even worse, military goods supply) depends on trade will be vulnerable to the actions of hostile navies.

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The sixth and final pillar, War Changes, is all about the technological advances of the 19th century and the way that warfare changed from the maneuvering of post-napoleonic armies to the meat grinder that was World War One. Our ambition is for these changes to be felt in the gameplay of Victoria 3, as technologies such as the machine gun makes warfare an ever bloodier and costlier affair while advancements in naval technology makes it easier for countries with advanced navies to project global power.

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Before I end this dev diary, I want to talk briefly about our most radical departure from other Paradox GSGs - the absence of units you move on the map, and why we chose to go in this direction. The main reason is simply that Victoria 3 is a game primarily focused on Economy, Diplomacy and Politics and we felt a more strategic approach to warfare mechanics fits the game better than micro-intensive tactical maneuvering.

It’s important to note that how this works differs completely from having AI-controlled units in our other GSGs, since in Victoria 3 armies you assign armies to fronts rather than provinces (navies of course work differently, but more on that later). We’ll be getting into the exact details of the mechanics for both armies and navies in the coming weeks.

We of course still want Victoria 3 to have interesting and meaningful warfare mechanics, but we want the player to be engaging on a higher level of decision-making, making decisions about the overall war strategy and just how much they’re willing to sacrifice to achieve their goals rather than deciding which exact battalions should be battling it out in which exact province next.

This also ties into the general costliness of wars and the fact that you can achieve your ends through diplomacy - we want the ways in which an outmatched Victoria 3 player triumphs over their enemies to be clever diplomacy, well-planned logistics and rational strategic thinking rather than brilliant generalship. Ultimately, we’ve taken this approach to warfare for the same reason we take any game design decision: because we believe that it will make Victoria 3 a better game.

With that said, we’re done for today! We’ll of course be talking much more about warfare in the coming weeks, starting with next week’s dev diary on the topic of Fronts and Generals.
 
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24 hours ago this game mechanic was derided as "crackpot theory" too ridiculous and silly to possibly be in the game. What caused the turnaround in opinion so quickly?
 
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Japan is disagreeing, Balkans disagree, Ethiopia disagrees, Sardinia Piedmont and Belgium disagrees.
Today I learned the Balkans, Sardinia-Piedmont, and Belgium are non-Western nations.
 
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Does not matter there were a lot of surprising exceptions and as a player your role is to rise to the challenge and make it happen.
If you say "this was a period where blah blah blah", then maybe you should have a better bit of evidence to back it up than "many non-Western countries survived the period, like Belgium and Sardinia-Piedmont!."

You're the one who claimed it was normal in this period for the weak to overcome the mighty. In fact, the opposite is true: this is the period where Europe had (by far!) the most disproportional advantage over the non-European world that it would ever have, and in a shockingly short amount of time the vast majority of the world was colonised, leaving exactly two native-ruled countries left in Africa (one of which was in fact not "native" at all but rather a dysfunctional settler colony, and the other was STILL colonised by 1936) and scarcely more than that in East Asia.
 
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If you say "this was a period where blah blah blah", then maybe you should have a better bit of evidence to back it up than "many non-Western countries survived the period, like Belgium and Sardinia-Piedmont!."

You're the one who claimed it was normal in this period for the weak to overcome the mighty. In fact, the opposite is true: this is the period where Europe had (by far!) the most disproportional advantage over the non-European world that it would ever have, and in a shockingly short amount of time the vast majority of the world was colonised, leaving exactly two native-ruled countries left in Africa (one of which was in fact not "native" at all but rather a dysfunctional settler colony) and scarcely more than that in East Asia.
Not my point. I do not care if a nation is European or not but if it is weak or not. Also look at what the Zulu did with spears. Newly freed Balkan nations were also weak and backwards but they had some success.
 
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24 hours ago this game mechanic was derided as "crackpot theory" too ridiculous and silly to possibly be in the game. What caused the turnaround in opinion so quickly?
Far more people notice the dev diary than random forum (or whatever) discussion. Also, people have expressed interest in a more abstract warfare system since the game was announced, although few thought it was a realistic possibility.
 
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Not my point. I do not care if a nation is European or not but if it is weak or not. Also look at what the Zulu did with spears. Newly freed Balkan nations were also weak and backwards but they had some success.
The Zulu lost the war and their independence.

Which, by the way, will also happen when you replay said war under Victoria 2's system, and it will happen with a great deal less trouble on Britain's part than it was in real life.
 
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Japan is disagreeing,
Japan didn't stay independent by winning a war, though. They stayed independent by going hard on the economic and political game until they were on more even footing with the West. (Including grabbing their own colonies...) They knew as well as anyone that if they'd tried to keep Perry out by force and the Western powers chose to force the issue, Japan would be in for a rough time.

So instead they did the reasonable thing, building relationships with stronger powers and developing their industry and tech to the point that they weren't such underdogs. That's a reasonable, challenging objective for a player. Playing Luxembourg and kicking out the tar out of Germany by "cleverly" doing the same thing over and over because the tactical AI will fall for it... isn't.
 
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The Zulu lost the war and their independence.

Which, by the way, will also happen when you replay said war under Victoria 2's system, and it will happen with a great deal less trouble on Britain's part than it was in real life.
Also Serbia eventually was overrun in WW1 but they hold on their own against Austria for almost 2 Years. The Zulu won countless tactical engagements before eventually losing, but those limited success stories inspire players to want to play a “what if” scenario and not playing an economy simulator on a major power for 3 times and giving up playing.
 
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Here is an idea. Rather than complain (or push back against complainers), perhaps it would be more fruitful to make suggestions for what type of strategic system people would like to see. Maybe people who are terrified could propose ideas that would make them less upset.

Here are some thoughts.

How many fronts would it take to simulate the American Civil War? A half dozen? I know there were at least a couple in the Eastern Theater (Richmond area/Shenandoah Valley) and at least a couple in the Western Theater (Mississippi/Tennessee rivers). Let's just say for the sake of an example that there were six. Deciding how to divide up men and materials in six different places is a strategic decision. That doesn't sound like a trivial decision to me either. The more fronts, the tougher the decisions that the player/AI needs to make.

What type of activities did armies perform during the ACW? Armies should be able to fortify/siege, of course. Wasn't there a confederate army that used hit and run tactics to harass three union armies in the Shenandoah (I vaguely recall something like that in Ken Burns' special)? That sounds like an interesting tactic for an army (stay mobile and refuse to fight a pitched battle - there would be downsides, of course). Guerilla tactics have already been proposed in the thread. Sherman destroying and burning suggests another. Plus, of course, the option of seeking out a pitched battle. What other tactics should the player/AI be able to direct their generals to use?

In an earlier write up in this thread, I suggested battle phases where the player/AI could make decisions (recon, maneuver, skirmish, etc). I am hoping that something like this is already planned, but if not, then I think something like that would be cool. Make it like the diplomacy system where each side makes a decision, then there is an outcome, then more decisions. In the same way that diplomacy escalates to war, conflict between armies could escalate to a pitched battle with massive casualties.

For those who are unhappy, if you had to decide how to divide up men/materials over six fronts, then specify a battle tactic for each front from a half-dozen choices, then regularly receive updates from each front as battle phases changed the strategic situation, would that be enough to replace moving individual armies around? If not, then what would it take? There has to be something that doesn't involve actually moving the big stacks around the map that would be fun. If nothing else, throw out some ideas and let's see what people think!

Edit: You know what, I am going to create a separate thread for this post and see if people want to discuss it.
 
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24 hours ago this game mechanic was derided as "crackpot theory" too ridiculous and silly to possibly be in the game. What caused the turnaround in opinion so quickly?
Strictly speaking, the crackpot theory was wrong in some important specifics even though it got the big brush strokes right. The biggest problem I had with it is it completely discounted the need for provinces, since everything was supposed to be happening on the Strategic Region level. That doesn't appear to be how it works. Provinces do matter, and quite a bit based on Wiz's comment about them earlier in the thread.
 
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Traslogan

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It feels like when Relic tries to do sequels and they create spin-offs by mistake. That's too much of a departure for me, military was still insanely important in Victoria 2, it was just heavily integrated into the economic process.

That one dev diary alone genuinely will stop me buying Victoria 3. This is now a spinoff with a massive overhaul of mechanics rather than a sequel.
 
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bigrigg47

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Such bad bait. These dairies usually get 99% upvoted. Not to mention how this place is pdx echo chamber full of hopefuls having 20% of your customer disagreeing with the course of development is most definitely backlash.
View attachment 770717
For unexpectedly announcing that they're massively overhauling the warfare system that they've used in like every game they've ever had ... that's pretty good. 99% of dev diaries are presenting something expected and conventional that surprises no one.
 
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Xaelyn

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I feel like all this is meant do is reduce granularity so the player can't run rings around the ai. Instead of 5 stacks of 30k in 5 provinces you assign 1 army of 150k to a state which fights the neighbouring army using dice rolls as usual.
I hope it turns out to be better than that but my hopes are not terribly high.
 
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