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Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #22 - The Concept of War

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Hello and welcome to another Victoria 3 development diary! Today’s dev diary has been a hotly anticipated one, as we’re finally ready to start talking about war and combat and how they will work in Victoria 3.

So then, how does war and combat work? The answer is that we’ve taken a pretty different approach to warfare and combat in Victoria 3 compared to other Paradox Grand Strategy Games, and in this dev diary I’ll be going over the overall vision that governs our design for warfare, with the actual nitty-gritty on the mechanics coming over the next few weeks. Just as Victoria 3 itself has a set of design pillars that all game mechanics follow (as outlined in the very first diary), Warfare in Victoria 3 has its own design pillars, which we will now explain in turn.

The first pillar is one that is shared with the vision of the game as a whole: War is a Continuation of Diplomacy - anything you can gain through war should also be possible to gain through diplomacy. As we’ve already talked about this multiple times in the past, and last week’s dev diary told you all about Diplomatic Plays, we don’t feel the need to go into this again, but it’s still important to keep in mind to understand our approach to warfare.

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The second pillar, War is Strategic, is exactly what it sounds like. In Victoria 3, all decisions you make regarding warfare are on the strategic level, not the tactical. What this means is that you do not move units directly on the map, or make decisions about which exact units should be initiating battle where. Instead of being unit-in-province-based, warfare in Victoria 3 is focused on supplying and allocating troops to frontlines between you and your enemies. The decisions you make during war are about matters such as what front you send your generals to and what overall strategy they should be following there. If this sounds like a radical departure from the norm in Paradox GSGs, that’s because it is, and I’ll be talking more about the rationale at the end of this dev diary.

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The third pillar, War is Costly, is all about the cost of war - political, economic and humanitarian. There is no such thing as a bloodless war in Victoria 3, as just the act of mobilizing your army will immediately start accruing casualties from accident and disease (as these were and remain the biggest killers of men during war, not battles) in addition to being an immense financial burden for your country. The soldiers and conscripts who die during war leave behind children and widows, and may even become dependents themselves as a result of injuries sustained during your quest for national glory.

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The fourth pillar, Preparation is Key, ties heavily into the second and third pillars. Much of the strategic decision making in Victoria 3 that will let you win wars are all about how well prepared you are. For example: Have you promoted the most competent generals, or were you forced to promote an incompetent wastrel for political expedience? Have you invested in the best (but very costly) rifles for your soldiers, or are you forced to fight at a technological disadvantage? During the Diplomatic Play preceding the war, did you mobilize all your armies in time and eat the costs in men and materiel, or did you hold off hoping on a peaceful resolution, or at least for the conflict to end up as a limited war? Did you choose to build and subsidize an arms industry large enough to cover your wartime needs, or is your army reliant on import of weapons that may be vulnerable to enemy shipping disruptions? These are the sort of questions that can decide who has the true advantage when going into an armed conflict in Victoria 3.

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The fifth pillar, Navies Matter, is an ambition of ours that for many countries, navies should feel just as important (and in some cases more important) as armies. In addition to supporting or hindering overseas expeditions (by, for example, cutting off enemy supply lines), navies play a crucial role in waging economic warfare, as a country whose economy (or even worse, military goods supply) depends on trade will be vulnerable to the actions of hostile navies.

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The sixth and final pillar, War Changes, is all about the technological advances of the 19th century and the way that warfare changed from the maneuvering of post-napoleonic armies to the meat grinder that was World War One. Our ambition is for these changes to be felt in the gameplay of Victoria 3, as technologies such as the machine gun makes warfare an ever bloodier and costlier affair while advancements in naval technology makes it easier for countries with advanced navies to project global power.

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Before I end this dev diary, I want to talk briefly about our most radical departure from other Paradox GSGs - the absence of units you move on the map, and why we chose to go in this direction. The main reason is simply that Victoria 3 is a game primarily focused on Economy, Diplomacy and Politics and we felt a more strategic approach to warfare mechanics fits the game better than micro-intensive tactical maneuvering.

It’s important to note that how this works differs completely from having AI-controlled units in our other GSGs, since in Victoria 3 armies you assign armies to fronts rather than provinces (navies of course work differently, but more on that later). We’ll be getting into the exact details of the mechanics for both armies and navies in the coming weeks.

We of course still want Victoria 3 to have interesting and meaningful warfare mechanics, but we want the player to be engaging on a higher level of decision-making, making decisions about the overall war strategy and just how much they’re willing to sacrifice to achieve their goals rather than deciding which exact battalions should be battling it out in which exact province next.

This also ties into the general costliness of wars and the fact that you can achieve your ends through diplomacy - we want the ways in which an outmatched Victoria 3 player triumphs over their enemies to be clever diplomacy, well-planned logistics and rational strategic thinking rather than brilliant generalship. Ultimately, we’ve taken this approach to warfare for the same reason we take any game design decision: because we believe that it will make Victoria 3 a better game.

With that said, we’re done for today! We’ll of course be talking much more about warfare in the coming weeks, starting with next week’s dev diary on the topic of Fronts and Generals.
 
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I cannot imagine this being an interesting gameplay or even being successful. What is the meaning of managing limited recourses on a small front for example - there is nothing to engage with.
What is exactly engaging about the military system in the current generation of Paradox games?
 
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Wrong, they take time to implement after deciding to do them. To do them you still need just to click a button, and then wait

That's the same thing as manually controlling an army, you click on province and they take time to go there, and take time to finish the battle.
It's all game abstraction

---
Since no one who disagreed actually answered why, I assume they never read the diary just like OP. The decision to change law or construct buildings IS instant. Having "time to do it" doesn't make the decision not instant. Every strategy has some building, recruiting, upgrading time, it's still done with few clicks
I may have missed the point you were trying to get across originally, but I mean, don't ALL games come down to doing things with a few clicks? Some (many) more than others, some just a few?
 
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What is the meaning of managing limited recourses on a small front for example - there is nothing to engage with.
Except that's exactly what you do in Victoria 2. Especially early on. You have a few thousand soldiers. You wait on a border crossing, behind a river and on top of a mountain. The AI attacks you. You win. Later you have more soldiers, so you occupy every border province, wait until someone attacks your entrenched troops. You win.

And, again, we don't know the details of managing supply lines, resources, army compositions and military careers in Victoria 3.
 
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Well you should be happy then because this change is finally moving away from the Risk/Diplomacy/wargame mindset for strategy games and toward actual grand strategy.

Pardon me? Grand strategy means managing all different factors of nations to some degree, in for example ck3 it breaks down to the individual characters and their traits. What Vicky3 devs decide is to remove an integral part of managing the nation in preparation and during war. Suddenly all the before meaningful decisions that players had to make are now broken down to a "strategic level". Sounds for me rather it's going to be simplified to button clicking and not making real strategic decisions about supply zones, army sizes/compositions and terrain including all the deeper combat stats like speed, dmg dealt and tanked. The player won't decide when the divs in a set up are going for a terrain or naval invasion and rather some background calculation will. I see a "who spams the most powerful units without overstacking supply into a zone" gameplay in which the players interaction is clicking buttons without any meaningful strategy behind it.
All the movement micro interaction that really show skill and dedication when done intelligent and with planning are gone and replaced with some arbitrary system, which benefit it probably only that the devs have less work to do.
 
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Anyone willing to explain me the difference between "tactical warfare" and "strategic warfare" with HOI4 examples (or other PDX games maybe)?
well tactical warfare in hoi4 is those fast micro decisons you do in a limited area to encircle an army or capture a bunker etc while the strategic warfare is the whole operation and logistics and aearial and naval plans etc . you can play hi4 without the need of micro you just give planes to bombard and armies to follow a plan and ships to do a task . thats what like playing strategically only . what most here call it microing hoi4 is actually playing more tactically than strategically . reason why such micro loving players on multi often accept others joining them to deal with the other strategic aspects of the game while they focus on the micro battles
 
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Sweating profusely because you were just on the cusp of losing on an Iron man save before you think of a plan and win - pure satisfaction.
I can bet nine times out of ten those plans include sitting on some fort and baiting the AI to attack you. That's not exactly very thrilling gameplay, that's just using AI flaws as a win every time exploit.
 
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The player won't decide when the divs in a set up are going for a terrain or naval invasion and rather some background calculation will.
they literally said 'you decide the tactics employed in a war'

do you honestly believe that doesn't include picking where the invasion is going to happen?
 
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Anyone willing to explain me the difference between "tactical warfare" and "strategic warfare" with HOI4 examples (or other PDX games maybe)?

Paradox games don't let players handle tatics, this is done by the AI.

Paradox games simulate the operational level, which is moving military units around to achieve strategic aims.

The strategic level is allocation of resources and the goals in theatre.
 
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I can bet nine times out of ten those plans include sitting on some fort and baiting the AI to attack you. That's not exactly very thrilling gameplay, that's just using AI flaws as a win every time exploit.
But it is closer to reality of Victorian randomness and whit than the resource simulator the devs are proposing.
 
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I will say that the fact so many people cannot imagine a grand strategy game not including men to move around a map like chess pieces is a pretty stern indictment of the genre.

I will also note that never, even once, has that system been reflective of how warfare, armies and battles actually work in any time or place and in fact tends to obscure some pretty important truths. Generals who treat their forces like pieces on chessboards are much more often notable for their failures rather than their successes.
 
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sigismundus

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Anyone willing to explain me the difference between "tactical warfare" and "strategic warfare" with HOI4 examples (or other PDX games maybe)?
These are strategic
Should I rather produce more tanks and create more tank division or rather produce more artillery to classic 7-2? First is stronger but cost more fuel to maintain.
Should I send more fighters to frontline to protect against CAS or rather send them to protect factories from strategic bombing?
Should I send more Division to Africa to win this theatre and risk collapse on eastern front or abandon Africa a focus on east?

These are Tactical.
Should I attack with these divisions to this province now or rather wait to enemy moves off?
Should I move aggressively to take this city/depo and risk that enemy cut of my divisions?
Should I fake retreat to lure enemy from fortified position to take him by surprise by counterattack?
 
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rocketman120

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nope read my comment above

The tactical level is done at a divisional level or lower and simulates the actual battle between units. In Paradox games this is always done by the AI, Total War is the only game series I can think of that does things at a tactical level.

Moving divisions around and deciding where they will attack is the operational level of warfare.

Why do people keep saying there won't be units on the map? Did the DD say that somewhere and I just completely missed it?

From the end of the diary:

"Before I end this dev diary, I want to talk briefly about our most radical departure from other Paradox GSGs - the absence of units you move on the map, and why we chose to go in this direction. The main reason is simply that Victoria 3 is a game primarily focused on Economy, Diplomacy and Politics and we felt a more strategic approach to warfare mechanics fits the game better than micro-intensive tactical maneuvering."
 
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auzewasright

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Why do people keep saying there won't be units on the map? Did the DD say that somewhere and I just completely missed it?
It mumbled some stuff about not being so based on units in provinces and people on both sides ran with it.
The tactical level is done at a divisional level or lower and simulates the actual battle between units. In Paradox games this is always done by the AI, Total War is the only game series I can think of that does things at a tactical level.

Moving divisions around and deciding where they will attack is the operational level of warfare.



From the end of the diary:

"Before I end this dev diary, I want to talk briefly about our most radical departure from other Paradox GSGs - the absence of units you move on the map, and why we chose to go in this direction. The main reason is simply that Victoria 3 is a game primarily focused on Economy, Diplomacy and Politics and we felt a more strategic approach to warfare mechanics fits the game better than micro-intensive tactical maneuvering."
The key part of that is "pieces you move", not pieces in general. At least to me.
 
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